Do you know the way to Ariminum?

Howdy all,

I'm finishing up my read of Polybius' Histories (Great read, by the way), and I noted the following passage in Book III, Chapter 69 during his treatment of the Second Punic War:

The two armies duly made contact and Longus pitched camp close to Scipio, but after this he needed time to rest his men, who had undertaken a continuous march of forty days from Lilybaeum to Ariminum. (emphasis added)

Forty days from Lilybaeum to Ariminum?? Is this possible? I have to admit that, in my Romani campaign, I have not been building highways throughout Italy (or anywhere else, for that matter). Will I be able to make such long-distance marches after building highways?

On a more general note: Am I crazy for ignoring the construction of highways? Anybody have some advice here?

Thanks!

Especially if they were in friendly territory (i.e. less supply problems), armies could move far faster in reality than they do in EB. However, army movement rates are kept low in order to prevent "teleporting", that is, going from one point to another without a blockading army being able to interfere. In reality, armies didn't take turns at moving either.

Some ancient 'yardstick': Sardis - Sousa : ~3 months' journey.

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Originally Posted by Tarkus

Forty days from Lilybaeum to Ariminum?? Is this possible?

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Not in EB. In reality,yes. On proper roads, an army could have made some 800 to 1200 kilometres in a 40 days continuous march - even though afterwards the army would have looked as if fought a serious battle with 1/2 missing and the rest half dead.

In the 18th Century armies marched in 3-days intervalls. That is two days of marching and afterwards one day of rest; first of all because it took one day to bake the bread for the next three days. The average speed was about 20 to 30 kilometres per day, that made about 50 kilometres per intervall, so a little over 100 per week. That would have been some 500 to 700 kilometres in 40 days without force marching.

One chestnut I've seen quoted went something like "a single forced march causes as much casualies as a major pitched battle" or something along those lines - you know, stragglers, tired and sick soldiers forgotten by the wayside, that kind of thing.

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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

Some ancient 'yardstick': Sardis - Sousa : ~3 months' journey.

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An elaboration on this; For couriers on duty per "parâsang" (Per unequal hour) this distance could be reduced to a handful of days if the Royal Road was used, and especially if caravansaries entered the picture. The Sassanians optimized this system of intelligence by increasing the figure of out-posts, to such degree that in application it became a human "telephone"-line (News were literally shouted); Under ideal circumstances news would reach the court in Ctesiphon by mere hours.

It is bedazzling indeed how infantry armies with convoluted logistics and heavy baggage covers this distance, in contrasts to an equestrian army with minimal baggage.

Correct (as usual :grin:) I was referring to Herodotos who informs us of the time it takes to get from Sardis to Sousa on foot, if one uses the Royal Road and travels light.

I would suppose forty days from Lilybaeum to Ariminum was about right considering they would have had to cross the Apennines at some point. They probably were taking their time, too, comparatively.

Am I right to say that the Polybian quote comes from Tiberius Sempronius Longus' march to join Gnaeus Cornelius Scipio near Clastidium prior to the battle of the Trebia?

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Originally Posted by pezhetairoi

Am I right to say that the Polybian quote comes from Tiberius Sempronius Longus' march to join Gnaeus Cornelius Scipio near Clastidium prior to the battle of the Trebia?

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Precisely!

Thanks much for the "reality check", fellas. I'm amazed at the distances that armies could travel -- and equally amazed at the attrition they would endure through such exertion...

Now, in the EB world: Am I making a big mistake by ignoring the construction of highways, from both military and economic points of view? I'm just leaving everything at paved roads...

Of course, if they were real men, they could be like the Texans at Antietam and march for two days and two nights without stopping to sleep or eat, form the battle lines, and then send the Union in a feverish flight after a fierce attack.

But not everyone's a Texan.


Snite(<--- Texan)

Ah, but Hood's Texans weren't men. They were demigods. Crazy marchers, seriously.

@Tarkus: Well, they really DO improve transportation by a considerable margin. Build'em if you can. Definitely. With highways across Italia, at least, 3 turns from Rhegion to Mediolanum becomes 2.

And they give trade bonuses too. Build them and you will soon appreciate them.

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Originally Posted by Snite

Of course, if they were real men, they could be like the Texans at Antietam and march for two days and two nights without stopping to sleep or eat, form the battle lines, and then send the Union in a feverish flight after a fierce attack.

But not everyone's a Texan.


Snite(<--- Texan)

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You mean "Like the Texans at Antietam and march for two days and two nights without stopping to sleep or eat, form the battle lines, and then died gloriously by the musketry of the Iron Brigade; who then looked around and decided that the corn wasn't ripe yet and strolled away, leaving the crop for the triple-digit regiments of XII Corps". :2thumbsup:

As I recall, the Texans initially saved the day against the superior numbers(and superiorly rested/fed) Yankees, or so it seemed because the Union then brought up reinforcements(most likely your Iron Brigade) that sent the much beleagered Texans reeling.

I could be fuzzy since it's been awhile since I read up on The War for Southern Independence.


Snite

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Originally Posted by Snite

As I recall, the Texans initially saved the day against the superior numbers(and superiorly rested/fed) Yankees, or so it seemed because the Union then brought up reinforcements(most likely your Iron Brigade) that sent the much beleagered Texans reeling.

I could be fuzzy since it's been awhile since I read up on The War for Southern Independence.


Snite

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The Iron Brigade were the first in. Texan troops wrote about seeing the tips of bayonets above the cornstalks in the early morning light and then seeing the black hats and knowing they were in for a fight.

By the time the Iron Brigade withdrew, both brigades were more or less spent for the day.

Not sure about how it all went, but according to my map of Sharpsburg Hood's Texans were behind Jackson's frontline, at the Dunker Church. They were cooking breakfast when the battle broke on them without warning. Jackson got whacked by the combined attack of Hooker, Mansfield and Sumner, and driven back through the cornfield, but the Union people came up just in time to meet Hood coming the other way and they got beaten back. To quote Shelby Foote, 'It was Hood; Jackson had called for him while his men were preparing their first hot meal in days, and perhaps that had something to do with the violence of the assault.'

Interesting. Quite a fight it was, too.

Amazing how a topic about the marching distance of a Roman army in the Second Punic War can turn into discussing how the Texans fared at a battle in the American Civila War. Amazing.

It's all due to Snite's 'divine intervention'. But interesting all the same. We should all study the American Civil War sometime.

Or post knowledge threads on episodes from other wars and periods, like the 'Thirty Years War' thread, etc. Who says this sort of thing had to go into the MTW forums? >:D

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Originally Posted by pezhetairoi

Not sure about how it all went, but according to my map of Sharpsburg Hood's Texans were behind Jackson's frontline, at the Dunker Church. They were cooking breakfast when the battle broke on them without warning. Jackson got whacked by the combined attack of Hooker, Mansfield and Sumner, and driven back through the cornfield, but the Union people came up just in time to meet Hood coming the other way and they got beaten back. To quote Shelby Foote, 'It was Hood; Jackson had called for him while his men were preparing their first hot meal in days, and perhaps that had something to do with the violence of the assault.'

Interesting. Quite a fight it was, too.

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Actually the morning phrase was just between Hookers first Corps and Jacksons for about an hour, the first corps (including the Iron Brigade) had shattered the two divisions of Jacksons when the Texas brigade charged and crashed through the first Corps-including the Iron Brigade. They were stopped by a reserve division of the PA reserves (led by George Gordan Meade and Robert Anderson(commander of fort sumpter)) and from the formation of the 12th corps in the east woods.


Non of the Union attacks at Antietam were made by more than Corps strenth, which is why 35,000 confederate infantry men were able to hold back 70,000 union soldiers-they attacked piece mealed. In the first corps fight with Jackson in the cornfield, in about one hour, 8,000 men were shot, thats more than our losses at D-day. Out of 85-90,000 men actually engaged, 24,500 were shot.

I was checking over my facts, and I was wrong, only roughly 50,000 union troops were engaged!

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Originally Posted by General Appo

Amazing how a topic about the marching distance of a Roman army in the Second Punic War can turn into discussing how the Texans fared at a battle in the American Civila War. Amazing.

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Amazing indeed...:inquisitive:

Have we really talked about ALL our collective knowledge of highways and their benefits in EB??!! And in the period as a whole????!!!!

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Originally Posted by Tarkus

Amazing indeed...:inquisitive:

Have we really talked about ALL our collective knowledge of highways and their benefits in EB??!! And in the period as a whole????!!!!

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The turnpike system on the Eastern Seaboard of the United States would have provided a significant advantage of mobility to Roman forces attacking Virginia.

Except that Virginia had a significant system of highways on its own.

On that note, I'm certain that at 1,000+ yards, the LS could have saved many Roman soldiers from broken ribs due to spent bullets. Now all they would have to do is find a way at approach a Confederate battalion without being fired at from within effective range.

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Originally Posted by Dhampir

The turnpike system on the Eastern Seaboard of the United States would have provided a significant advantage of mobility to Roman forces attacking Virginia.

Except that Virginia had a significant system of highways on its own.

On that note, I'm certain that at 1,000+ yards, the LS could have saved many Roman soldiers from broken ribs due to spent bullets. Now all they would have to do is find a way at approach a Confederate battalion without being fired at from within effective range.

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:2thumbsup: LOL :2thumbsup: LOL :2thumbsup:

They could hurl their pila really, really hard.

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Originally Posted by Dhampir

Now all they would have to do is find a way at approach a Confederate battalion without being fired at from within effective range.

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They're time travelling Romans. Kevlar fronted shields!

May be testudo would have helped?

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Originally Posted by konny

May be testudo would have helped?

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Like a Napoleonic assault column? Will they march to old trousers? ~;p