East vs. West - Segregation of Communities?

I have been lulling this issue over in my mind for some time, and have decided to open a discussion on it. For as long as I can remember, we have been playing worldwide competitions in the TW MP community, but how feasible is this? Most gaming communities have surrendered to the possibility of transcontinental competition and have separated into European, North American, and Asian divisions to avoid issues such as high ping/connection issues, as well as timezone issues. Because Total War has a rather small MP community (in comparison to other games), competitions have been designed for a universal audience. This means that instead of gaming leagues such as CAL, individuals have used their own time and resources to create tournaments and competitions. Although this does have some positive aspects as I will address later, there are certainly a lot of cons as well.

If you look at the Spanish and Polish communities for example, they have set up their own communities and they are thriving (especially the Polish community which has come into its own in the past year or so). They have competitions restricted to their own nation, and are able to finish these tournaments quickly. Now it seems to be much easier for these communities to thrive since their primetime hours are similar, making it easier to find people to play against -- in comparison to the North American prime time which has under 30 people on an average weeknight. On weekends they benefit from the North American presence throughout the day (their night), until it becomes the North American prime time when nobody is around. From a talent development standpoint, it is easy to see how the Europeans have become dominant in M2TW due to the quantity of players that are around. North Americans see how empty the lobby is, get a NAT error, and give up forever.

Now what I am interested in discussing here is whether or not North Americans and Europeans should even both competing together. I am not saying that SKILL is the factor here, but timezone differences and ping issues. Anyone who has played in tournaments (especially team matches) knows that it takes weeks and months to arrange a single match. Example: The Clan Community Shield, a universal tournament, took over a year to complete. On average it took more than one month per series to complete. The same is happening to the Clan War Belt. The Clan Wars Competition is suffering as well, though I can honestly say that this type of competition favours attributes of attrition rather than skill. For example, Silent Assassins and Tag32, two of the best clans (both being Western Clans) were unable to compete after several months because their clan had gone inactive, allowing more active Polish clans to advance. Now don't get me wrong, I am not trying to slander Polish clans (they beat my clan while we were most active), but replacing the dominant clans because of activity is certainly an issue that we need to address.

So with the fate of the CWB, TWPL, CWC, CCS, and any other 3v3 tournament hanging in the balance, should we consider segregating the community competitions based on Time Zone? I proposed this idea during my stint at running Deeds of Arms 1v1, but it was not favourable since there were very few North Americans present -- at this point most of the NA community had already dwindled. Perhaps if the North American community had developed an infrastructure such as the Polish, Italian, and Spanish communities, it may have survived to finish these tournaments. Now what I am suggested is that NA community create a similar domain as the .org.pl and establish their own community there. I recognize that the .org.pl is so successful because it acts as the .org does, as well as offers as a MP haven for the Polish community, whereas the .org is SP focused. This may make it difficult to create a MP haven for NA because much of the traffic is already present at the .org, and you would only have a MP presence to begin with if a new website was formed. Without the proper marketing technique, it will fail. I want to stop writing now and summarize the pros and cons of segregating the community.

Pros

* Establish a network of NA clans and players to increase practice and level of competition
* Populate the servers during prime time hours to encourage potential MPers to stay.
* Competitions will be able to conclude in a shorter amount of time
* Will establish a stronger identity on the international scene (comparative to Polish patriotism)
* Lower Ping games, more smoothness, less lag, less chance of connectivity errors
* Higher chance of coincidentally 'meeting' your opponent to play the match
* Higher volume of matches perhaps, enabling interesting and unique formats
* Specific forums for players to discuss and exchange replays/tactics
* Every other serious gaming community does this.

Cons

* Will separate players from international talent -- diversity of tactics learned through playing with different players might be hindered through this process.
* From a character perspective, there are some great people I have met internationally, and segregating may stop this exchange of personalities.
* North American players may opt to play internationally for higher competition
* Exclusion of North Americans from events because of the creation of North American exclusive events
* Patriotic rivalries (clash of egos)
* Prize distribution may be difficult, providing Sega ever gives out prizes
* Commonality of the English language allows other communities to participate in English communities, whereas national languages (ex. Polish) can segregate themselves quite easily.


So here are some things to consider. I am interested in International/North American input, since the creation of a seperate and isolated community could change the face of the community to some extent, providing it is done correctly. I am speaking of an idealistic community, of course, using as an example the Polish, and Spanish communities as examples. It is much easier for them to create an isolationist feel because of linguistic barriers, and would be able to probe into a NA community quite easily. Ex. Whenever I go to the .org.pl to post something, I have a hard enough time just registering, same goes to any clan that does not have English options. Of course I applaud the fact that they can speak various languages, but would this hinder the development of a NA community (adding this to cons hehe)? Anyways, discuss!

Maybe im missing something but as far as I can tell, this idea depends on the size of a community. Right now an international competition where clans from all over the world competete with each other does not work! We've seen that, as you pointed out in the cwb, the twpl and the ccs. While national tournaments such as the spanish or the polish leagues become more popular and are sometimes bigger than big international tournies such as the cwb at the zenith or the twpl and the css.

However, it did work in the past (twpl rome season) mainly because the community was more active back then. And I assume that it could work again if more players come back or start playing mp again. Another factor (obviously) is the mp support. Lags, leaks, NAT errors and the like can destroy all our best ideas. But if we have a stable, advanced and modern online plattform, nothing would stand in the way to stop us from organizing large and successfull international tournaments.

So would it be safe to say then, that perhaps it is a better idea to segregate the community into smaller location based pockets? You mention a hypothetical situation where lag and NAT errors do not exist, well for as long as I can remember they have. Although there is supposed to be a 'new' MP experience for ETW, can we really expect much more than the current state of things based on CA's track record? All signs point to no. So if we are to expect that MP will be poorly constructed as it has for the previous (3?) titles, then going ahead with regional focussed tournaments is probably a brighter idea.

People may argue that 1v1 tournaments are easier to coordinate, though you still run into timezone issues. With the exception of a few fanatical MP players, the MP scene is rather amateurish and laid back than most competitive online games. FPS leagues generally have several games per week, whereas you only find that in TW if you are entered into multiple tournaments. And even then you have a small time frame to complete the match before errors or time constraints force you to continue the match at a later date, sometimes 2-3 weeks after the original arrangement.

Hello,

I've played M2TW online twice and Kingdoms only once. The M2TW games were 1vs1, the two (two games, one evening) Kingdom (Retrofit) games were two 2vs2 (hosted 4vs4, it just didn't fill).

There are some claims about the performance, especially the required connection. 1mbs or 10mbs is a big difference. It's safe to say it's demanding? A team competition is nicer than 1vs1. That will put more stress on the hardware and connections, whether noticed or not. I think it's valid to go with local tourneys in that case to optimise fun.

What you say about people leaving is a reason to focus on local too. People can always choose to look beyond the border, even cells can decide to stick together again when conditions improve.

It's good to make the best use of what you have.

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Anyone who has played in tournaments (especially team matches) knows that it takes weeks and months to arrange a single match. Example: The Clan Community Shield, a universal tournament, took over a year to complete. On average it took more than one month per series to complete.

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The Clan Wars Competition has found a solution to this problem, discipline!
Starting with our latest MII Retrofit Competition, we have a new attitude and some new rules to deal with the irresponsible, as this is the root of this problem.

First is a communication rule. This requires that a representative from a participant Clan post at least once a week in their assigned Match threads, or they will forfeit the Match.

Second is a no-show rule. If a Clan Team misses an appointment without prior notification to their opponent, they will likewise forfeit the Match.

And here is the most important part. In addition to being dropped from the Contest, the result of violation of either of the above, is that their Clan will be banned from further CWC competition.

This at the onset may sound harsh, but the people who violate these rules are the ones who never really cared about the competition in the first place. We do have an “apology and promise” means for reinstatement for those who sincerely want to continue, but the rest are added to a list of those who will no longer be able to compete in Clan Wars.

Further curbs to time inflation;

We have a Lag Rule that enables contestants to “stop a game”, to discuss the problem to seek a solution.

Disrupted or disputed Battles are automatically ordered to be refought, with only Battles with clear wins applied to the Match.

All of our Match Rounds are limited to a four week time period, with no extensions.

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On the grander scale, at the height of our MTW/VI competitions I started to try to create Regional competitions. The major divisions were Asian, European, and American. I had just started communicating this idea to Chinese Clan leaders, when the dark days of Rome all but destroyed the multiplayer community.

My current assessment of the situation is that there are still not enough players yet to make this happen. But that the emergence of the strong localized communities, and the refinement of balances in the game, are encouraging :wink:

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“Clans are the structure of the multiplayer community, and competition is the glue that holds them together.” Tomisama


The Clan Wars Competition just passed it’s fifth year anniversary in February. Twenty competitions, over a hundred member Clans, and possibly over a thousand individual participants, and still going :charge:

I believe administrators have attempted to discipline clans in the past for poor conduct, though even then there are a lot of gray areas in the rules you listed. I hope everything works out for you, I know Shields was upset that we withdrew and thought we were slighting him, but we went inactive and simply could not do it.

The biggest issue comes into play when you have two clans that are both slacking in the arrangement process. Especially with timezone constraints, it usually becomes a matter of Saturday being the only open day, and which Saturday is free for all parties involved. Lag issues and desynchs sometimes erupt into long discussions, which even take time for admins to resolve. The lag resolution is idealistic but I don't know how practical it is. At what point in the match are players allowed to cancel? They could use this if one of their members has to leave for example, or if the match is not going in their favour. I have seen many arguments arise from this issue. You mentioned disputed battles must be replayed, but some players will use this to avoid losing. Again, I am speaking in hypothetical situations. No rules are perfect, and I hope for the sake of the community that these work for you.

I 100% agree that a no-show should be eliminated. Too many times I have seen people not show up and let it slide, or admins look the other way. This is a necessity.

One month of play per match...hmm, that still makes the CWC last six months? At least it is not a league and only the parties who are successful have to continue, but still half a year for a competition...It still rubs me the wrong way.

Perhaps the sheer volume of tournaments that exist contribute to the problem. Clans have to jockey around CWC, TWPL, CCS, CWB, plus all their 2v2 and 1v1 tournaments. The CWC certainly has a historic significance, but how can you really encourage players to participate in one over the other, when they essentially have the same result? Each tournament offers a graphic banner and the same amount of prestige for beating all the clans that play against you in every other tournament. Clans have never prioritized what are the best tournaments to enter, thus making it incredibly difficult to participate fully in each one. Clans that want to focus on one competition are then punished by all the other clans, and the new status quo established by the community, that tournaments can take months to complete. So instead of having one tournament last 1-2 months, you have 5 tournaments lasting almost a year.

What we need is a tournament to have a good prize for the winners, something worth fighting for. The Gamespot tournament I participated in had a prize of 700 and 300 for the runner up. This tournament went everyday and you were assigned a time slot to play in (after the initial round of course). This can only be done on a localized level of course, and it was just for North American players. The tournament restricted the applicants because they had to be North Americans, Gamespot premium members, and had enough time to play every day. But perhaps this is the best recipe for tournaments in the future. I am anxious to try it out come ETW when interest is revitalized again.

An Idea

Even without a massive prize such as the Gamespot tournament, you can still slot times when you have a three hour timezone difference to work with. Perhaps daily is a bit extreme, but prescribed time slots may be the answer we are looking for. For example, every Saturday/Sunday you could say there is an available time slot at 1PM and 3PM. Now I know every player in a team might not make it to the match, so you ensure that each team have 5-6 players. This means that if one-two-even-three players can't make it, you have a reserve. Teams must play their designated opponent at this time spot or else their forfeit the match. This can be applied to league/elimination style formats. You can even give an option of say three time slots throughout the week, and if they cannot agree, then have a default time slot.

Simply stated, instead of having 3v3 teams consisting of three players and having clans submit multiple entries, you make it more of a clan ordeal. I believe clans have had too much freedom in deciding when they play, which has created immense problems with administrating a tournament.

Now you could even structure this so that you complete divisions based on location (providing there is enough of a presence from each division), then go on to play internationally with broader time slots. For example, dedicate an entire Saturday to the time slot to anticipate lag issues and such. You have to have reserve players present in case somebody craps out, otherwise your team is responsible.

I think it is high time clans took responsibility for their actions instead of looking for easy ways out and fighting with attrition rather than skill. We need to step up the level of competition in the community. Anyways, just rambling off some ideas.

Regarding the success of the CWC: That is quite a milestone, and I am genuinely impressed with your dedication to online competitions, Tomi. It's no wonder the community holds you with such high regard.

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Originally Posted by YellowMelon

Perhaps the sheer volume of tournaments that exist contribute to the problem. Clans have to jockey around CWC, TWPL, CCS, CWB, plus all their 2v2 and 1v1 tournaments. The CWC certainly has a historic significance, but how can you really encourage players to participate in one over the other, when they essentially have the same result? Each tournament offers a graphic banner and the same amount of prestige for beating all the clans that play against you in every other tournament. Clans have never prioritized what are the best tournaments to enter, thus making it incredibly difficult to participate fully in each one. Clans that want to focus on one competition are then punished by all the other clans, and the new status quo established by the community, that tournaments can take months to complete. So instead of having one tournament last 1-2 months, you have 5 tournaments lasting almost a year.


Regarding the success of the CWC: That is quite a milestone, and I am genuinely impressed with your dedication to online competitions, Tomi. It's no wonder the community holds you with such high regard.

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Argeed. I remember I asked some clans when I try doing my own tournment some summers ago, and they refused because of being in many tournments. Now mabye the true reason was because my tournment was dinky (and never finshed threw), but I mean, there to many.

But I think the problem is, Some Clans are to greedy so to speak. They want to sign up for all these Tournments. Why? Is it because you want to have fun, or because you want to win each one to show your clan is the best?



Also, Congrats to Tomi and the CWC staff. quite a milestone indeed.:clown:

Congrats yourself Wars, Rome's Most Feared Player for 2007 :2thumbsup:

Good Show :yes:

I wonder how be organised these divisions.
If you want do something like "we have 3 divisions - USA, Europe and Asia" and all of them have same rights, it would be joke. Nowadays Europe is absolutely leading continent while both Americas are into deep withdraw.

Yes but that was not always the case, Krook. I think you misread my intent. In RTW for example, North America was larger than the Polish community by about the same margin as the Polish community is larger nowadays. In M2TW the Polish community really took off, and it is perhaps because of the development of the .org.pl and an online Polish community.

What this is for is developing an interest in TW for North Americans and perhaps enhance the multi player experience for them. You are correct that a system in place right now segregating the timezones for one contest would be imbalanced, but I was just throwing that idea out there for the future providing there is a larger NA presence. What I am interested in is how to reverse the effects of a depopulated NA presence for the next title.

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Originally Posted by Tomisama

Congrats yourself Wars, Rome's Most Feared Player for 2007 :2thumbsup:

Good Show :yes:

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Thank You Tomi, Took me awhile, but I finally Got it. Thanks :yes: