Printable View
Today Israel attacked Liban. They explain that they have to defend their country and they were attacked earlier.
In 1939 Germans were telling something really similar. And of course small, poor liban is great danger for Israel, so time on my comment;
SIEG SHALOM ISRAEL
You learnt much from III Reich.
To moderator, admin, et cetera....
Everyone can speak his mind.
I can't find Liban on a map. Can someone help me? :book:
Originally Posted by Vladimir:
Its next to Syrianna and Iraqiopia.:laugh4:
I can't find Liban on a map. Can someone help me? :book:
This should get interesting.
Very interesting
I might as well provide a link.
Originally Posted by KrooK:
Israel has repeatedly crossed the line of what is acceptable behaviour for a democracy, even when considering it's special circumstances. But to compare it with the Third Reich is in poor taste.
SIEG SHALOM ISRAEL
You learnt much from III Reich.
Maybe Poland shouldn't rename Auschwitz-Birkenau into the 'former German concentration camp Auschwitz' just yet. Or hide it behind Supermarkets and fastfood outlets.
Ok, let's keep this dead horse on life support. You care to expand on how they have "crossed the line" considering their situation? It reminds me of a poll of Brits with the majority saying that Israel should make more concessions. You can't make concessions with someone who wants you dead. The negotiations with Arafat proved that. Half-dead doesn’t cut it.
Louis:
I agree that characterizing Israel as Nazi is a little harsh -- even if, like yourself, you disagree with their actions. I am not sure that I disagree with their actions in this instance.
What would be an appropriate response to a specific attack on the Israeli military resulting in 7 dead and 2 captured and held hostage?
Krook:
In 1939, Nazi operatives under Heydrich actually staged an attack on a German radio station and murdered several people (criminals brought in for the task?) to make it look to be the work of murderous Polish terrorists. This became one of the pretexts used to invade Poland. By contrast, all available evidence suggests that the Israelis were attacked by Hez Bollah [sic?] forces operating from Southern Lebanon. I don't think your parallel is accurate.
Uh-oh... :juggle2:
Originally Posted by Dâriûsh:
I have to agree with you... Uh-oh......
Uh-oh... :juggle2:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh:
Appropriate for Israel would be to finally accept that it needs to negotiate a workable peace with it's neighbours. Likewise, the neighbouring Arab states need to accept that Israel will stay.
What would be an appropriate response to a specific attack on the Israeli military resulting in 7 dead and 2 captured and held hostage?
Appropriate in this case in particular would be the use of proportional force.
For example, would you support Israel setting of eight bombs on trains in Beirut? Killing 180 people? I think not, we would both deem that an act of terrorism.
In the past two weeks, Israels' behaviour in the Gaza strip and Lebanon has been an effort to terrorize the civilian population. It is not called terrorism for no other reason than that old adage that states that 'terrorists is what the large army calls the small army'.
Liban is probably the Polish term for Lebanon, don't be too harsh on Krook, he means well.
I believe Hezbollah and elements of Hamas have been firing an average of 100 missiles at Israeli towns a month during the so-called 'peace'. Pity the media decided not say that, instead concentrating on the peaceful flower-picking Palestinians who only want to bring peace and love to the world and the evil Jews who want to kill them all.
Originally Posted by Grey_Fox:
You're right, sorry Krook...
Liban is probably the Polish term for Lebanon, don't be too harsh on Krook, he means well.
I believe Hebollah and elements of Hamas have been firing an average of 100 missiles at Israeli towns a month during the so-called 'peace'. Pity the media decided not say that, instead concentrating on the peaceful flower-picking Palestinians who only want to bring peace and love to the world and the evil Jews who want to kill them all.
I completely agree on the rest of your post. The media is the greatest propoganda tool for the Palestinians. And some say the "Jews" run the media!!! LOL
@Grey Fox, Dave: How do you judge that ? You guys live here or what ?! A little note: Hamas can't supply 100 missiles a month + Hesbullah regular missile attacks (If any) are when Israeli army crosses the borders.
Originally Posted by :
I said it 100 times, but no one seems to read.. Maybe release the prisoners? Those taken for no reason? (Most of them are, at least. And then, believe me, neither Hesbullah nor any other resistance foundation would do anything to Israel, as long as arms are kept "calm" from both ends).
What would be an appropriate response to a specific attack on the Israeli military resulting in 7 dead and 2 captured and held hostage?
Ok Louis, I already told you what happens when you try to negotiate with their "neighbors" as you put it. The result is that you go nowhere. You don't negotiate with someone bent on your destruction. Hamas' resolve to destroy Israel has been demonstrated in word and deed. Isn't that what the withdrawal was about?
And X, do you really want to give in to kidnapping? It's the same thing with (officially) negotiating with terrorists. If you give into extortion it will only get worse. And the terrorizing of civilians, bombing of open areas and such, come on; it's like blaring rock and roll music at bank robbers barricaded in a bank. Loud noises and scary lights is hardly terrorizing. 100 missiles a month isn't a lot if you're receiving a lot of help from outside sources. Besides, you can't justify launching rockets at civilian targets because of an incursion. If you want to fight, fight the incursion.
This thread isn't going to be locked is it? :sweatdrop:
@Grey Fox, Dave: How do you judge that ? You guys live here or what ?! A little note: Hamas can't supply 100 missiles a month + Hesbullah regular missile attacks (If any) are when Israeli army crosses the borders.
Israeli friends. Also from King Haggard over at totalwar.com and the Pond who is IDF.
Also the arms probably come from the same people supplying the Iraqi insurgents.
A web search of news articles looking for the key words "Hebollah" "Hamas" "Israel" and "Missile" brings the following articles
Originally Posted by Linked Article:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=50454
An interesting article - one that points out that Hamas is working on developing a electonic guided missle.
Since Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip nine months ago, more than 300 rockets, mostly Qassams, have been fired at adjacent Jewish neighborhoods. More than 10 rockets were fired last week alone.
The Israeli army largely has attempted to halt Qassam rocket fire mostly utilizing artillery units and aerial strikes against suspected launching sites, but the operations have failed to stem the flow of Palestinian rocket attacks. Israel earlier this week carried out a raid deep inside Gaza, reportedly the first of its kind since withdrawing from the territory last August.
Originally Posted by linked Article:
http://www.aijac.org.au/updates/May-....html#Article_
A times article that was linked to the above site.
Now, after Arafat's death and Hamas' rise to political power, chieftains aligned with the defeated Fatah faction, which Arafat once led, are scrambling to retain influence and control of their own bands of armed followers, even while taking on the fighters of Hamas.
"More and more, Gaza is ruled by warlords," said Eyad Sarraj, who heads a human rights group in the seaside territory where gunmen, in or out of uniform, can be seen on almost every street corner. "We are turning into a kind of Somalia. And this is Arafat's legacy."
i'm going to give the spelling the benefit of the doubt and ask if Liban is a non-English spelling of Lebanon; the way Turin and Torino are the same city in Italy.
Does it matter?
To be perfectly honest the creation Isreal has to rank as one of the greatest humanitarin crimes of the last century. You cannot expect a people to just role over when you take their land, or their neighbors land.
Regardless the Arab nations are willing to negotiate these days and the use of military invasion or shelling is unwarrented, because it doesn't work and it causes too much collateral damage. You want to stop something like this? You get down and dirty with Black Ops.
The head of my departement at my University is proffesionally boycotting Isreal and anyone that does not dissacociate themselves with the regime.
If any other country was doing this there would be outrage and cries of "sanctions."
Originally Posted by solypsist:
i'm going to give the spelling the benefit of the doubt and ask if Liban is a non-English spelling of Lebanon; the way Turin and Torino are the same city in Italy.
Liban is Lebanon in french
Le Liban is what Lebanon calls itself, in French.
Edit: Gah, beaten by a Québécois. :furious3:
People lets wake up. If Isreal wasnt Isreal theyd be royally shunned and be on the same plane as North Korea. If it wasnt for my countries blind support theyd already be there. I support a sperate Palistinan nation and all that good stuff. I also belive there is a HUGE jewish lobby in the USA however the reason we support the Isrealis is becuase they are thorns in the side of the arabs. The bottom line is this Isreal is a horrible country which uses America to forwared its intrests (not to mention steal our damned tech) I hope America stays out of this and Isreal has to fight on its own.
No qualms with the invasion in itself but...if Israel is like Israel, the civilian deaths will be through the roof... :shame:
Got huge qualms with that...
Originally Posted by Strike For The South:
I'm sure Israel will do fine on its own.
People lets wake up. If Isreal wasnt Isreal theyd be royally shunned and be on the same plane as North Korea. If it wasnt for my countries blind support theyd already be there. I support a sperate Palistinan nation and all that good stuff. I also belive there is a HUGE jewish lobby in the USA however the reason we support the Isrealis is becuase they are thorns in the side of the arabs. The bottom line is this Isreal is a horrible country which uses America to forwared its intrests (not to mention steal our damned tech) I hope America stays out of this and Isreal has to fight on its own.
If a Lebanese faction attacks another country then it can expect itself to be at war. I'm sure the US would react rather more harshly if, say, Canada or Mexico were lobbing missiles over the border on a regular basis, attacking their military and kidnapping their troops. The Yanks here would be demanding that those countries be turned to glass no doubt.
I don't know what the Israeli premier did wrong, he came into office on a ticket of making more concessions to the Palestinians and before he can do anything every terrorist in the mid-East is taking pot-shots. They smell weakness and they're obviously in no mood for negotiations.
Originally Posted by :
Lebanon surely doesn't like Israel (why should they?) but Israel's destruction is not part of their official policy. Lebanon is currently not officially at war with Israel. A fact that is ignored by Israel and Hezbollah. That's not the only thing they have in common.
Ok Louis, I already told you what happens when you try to negotiate with their "neighbors" as you put it. The result is that you go nowhere. You don't negotiate with someone bent on your destruction. Hamas' resolve to destroy Israel has been demonstrated in word and deed. Isn't that what the withdrawal was about?
because just before he caim in to power israel gave away land and now every tom dick and harry (or muhammed) thinks they can get another piece of it
Originally Posted by Strike For The South:
The difference is the Israel is a Democratically elected government that extends freedom and prosperity to its people. It only acts to defend itself, not gain additional resources from the world body.
People lets wake up. If Isreal wasnt Isreal theyd be royally shunned and be on the same plane as North Korea. If it wasnt for my countries blind support theyd already be there. I support a sperate Palistinan nation and all that good stuff. I also belive there is a HUGE jewish lobby in the USA however the reason we support the Isrealis is becuase they are thorns in the side of the arabs. The bottom line is this Isreal is a horrible country which uses America to forwared its intrests (not to mention steal our damned tech) I hope America stays out of this and Isreal has to fight on its own.
Alternatively, North Korea ia repressive Dictatorship that holds neighboring countries hostage in order to secure resources from international bodies.
I say to all,
I will not argue on the topic of whom was origainally entitled to what because it results in permanent violence. After all, Engalnd and France had claims on each others' territories and waged wars against each other for centuries because of those claims.
We must recognize the situation as it stands now, affirm Israel's right to exist as well as the right of a free Palestinian state. The Israeilis have been unable to attain coopeation from the Palestinian Authority despite pulling out of Gaza, dismantling settlements, and taking diplomatic steps towards a two-state solution. The election of Hamas represents the will of the Palestinian people to engage Israel with violence in order to meet its objectives.
Furthermore, if Israel acquiesces to the hostage takers, it will only encourage more hostage taking. And how is Israel to respond to rocket shelling from the Palestinian territories? Better question: How is Israel to respond to to rocket shelling fired from behgind civilian areas in Palestian territories?
Originally Posted by Red Peasant:
Point taken. However you and I both know Isreal thinks its proverbial **** dont stink and blindly beleive there right (which no country is). My whole thing is Isreal has convonced a great portion of my country that there little strip of land and there cuase there issuses were more important than anyone elses. The news here exalts the Isrealises and shows the Palestinains as dogs. What the Palistenians is doing is wrong but the Isrealis and to some extent my country has put them in that positon.
I'm sure Israel will do fine on its own.
If a Lebanese faction attacks another country then it can expect itself to be at war. I'm sure the US would react rather more harshly if, say, Canada or Mexico were lobbing missiles over the border on a regular basis, attacking their military and kidnapping their troops. The Yanks here would be demanding that those countries be turned to glass no doubt.
I don't know what the Israeli premier did wrong, he came into office on a ticket of making more concessions to the Palestinians and before he can do anything every terrorist in the mid-East is taking pot-shots. They smell weakness and they're obviously in no mood for negotiations.
Originally Posted by Strike For The South:
Please Clarify that.
What the Palistenians is doing is wrong but the Isrealis and to some extent my country has put them in that positon.
and maybe the title of this thread should be hizbullah attack kidnap 2 israeli soldiers kill 8 more and then israel reitaliates which country would just let there captured soldiers not be rescued?
Originally Posted by Bar Kochba:
Very few countries would engage in rescue operations with armor columns and thousands of soldiers. Both you, me, and everyone on these fora knows that the Mossad could solve this in under an hour, without any Israeli casualties (and only a few terrorist ones, but those people are guilty).
and maybe the title of this thread should be hizbullah attack kidnap 2 israeli soldiers kill 8 more and then israel reitaliates which country would just let there captured soldiers not be rescued?
This sort of heavy-handed approach is not befitting a democratic country. I do not say that they should have shut up and negotiated ... but launching a full-scale invasion over two soldiers is idiotic.
*Sigh* If it weren't for the US, Israel would be at least a bit more courteous. How do you expect the Arabic countries to react when your first move is to bash them, then, if that doesn't work, call in the world's only superpower to come to it's aid.
Didn't they already learn that responding to terrorists with tank divisions and army operations is counterproductive? All it does is give more men and materiel to the terrorists, which the operations are meant to curb. :no:
Originally Posted by KrooK:
How about you get a clue?
Today Israel attacked Liban. They explain that they have to defend their country and they were attacked earlier.
In 1939 Germans were telling something really similar. And of course small, poor liban is great danger for Israel, so time on my comment;
SIEG SHALOM ISRAEL
You learnt much from III Reich.
To moderator, admin, et cetera....
Everyone can speak his mind.
Lebanese sheltered terrorists kidnapped two Israeli soldiers and attacked IDF near Northern Israel. That's called an act of war.
Originally Posted by :
There's a good reason for not negotiating with terrorists- you'd just encourage more kidnappings.
Regardless the Arab nations are willing to negotiate these days and the use of military invasion or shelling is unwarrented, because it doesn't work and it causes too much collateral damage. You want to stop something like this? You get down and dirty with Black Ops.
Originally Posted by :
What makes me think he does not do the same for Palestine?
The head of my departement at my University is proffesionally boycotting Isreal and anyone that does not dissacociate themselves with the regime.
Originally Posted by :
On Lebanon, you mean?
If any other country was doing this there would be outrage and cries of "sanctions."
Surprisingly, I mostly agree with Red Peasant.
Israel unilaterally pulled out of Gaza- which the Palestinians converted into a rocket pad very quickly. What makes people think the Palestinians will act any differently with other concessions?
Crazed Rabbit
Originally Posted by Keba:
How would you feel if you pulled out of Gaza and get repaid by constant rocket attacks and a kidnapping/ransom demand of one of your soldiers? You can only poke the stronger man with a stick for so long before he gets pissed off and puts his foot up your ass.
Very few countries would engage in rescue operations with armor columns and thousands of soldiers. Both you, me, and everyone on these fora knows that the Mossad could solve this in under an hour, without any Israeli casualties (and only a few terrorist ones, but those people are guilty).
This sort of heavy-handed approach is not befitting a democratic country. I do not say that they should have shut up and negotiated ... but launching a full-scale invasion over two soldiers is idiotic.
*Sigh* If it weren't for the US, Israel would be at least a bit more courteous. How do you expect the Arabic countries to react when your first move is to bash them, then, if that doesn't work, call in the world's only superpower to come to it's aid.
Didn't they already learn that responding to terrorists with tank divisions and army operations is counterproductive? All it does is give more men and materiel to the terrorists, which the operations are meant to curb. :no:
Originally Posted by Ice:
Well we have given Isreal the means and they have used them to repress an entire populace:inquisitive:
Please Clarify that.
Originally Posted by Strike For The South:
I don't know where you got that from.:dizzy2:
Well we have given Isreal the means and they have used them to repress an entire populace:inquisitive:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South:
Again... clarify what you mean. Specfic instances?
Well we have given Isreal the means and they have used them to repress an entire populace:inquisitive:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South:
Wow, not a clue. You will find Palestinian members of the Israeli government, living side by side with Jews in Israel. The only Jew or Israeli you'll find in the Palestinian territories is dead, about to be dead, or armed and very pissed. Perhaps Israel should treat the Palestinians the same way the Jordanians and other Arab countries did, by slaughtering them. Take a look at how Jordan handled that problem in the 50's.
Well we have given Isreal the means and they have used them to repress an entire populace:inquisitive:
People always love to pick on big bad Israel, after all, that state shouldn't exist anyway right? Did anyone see the elected member of the Palestinian parliament that was proud she had three sons die as suicide bombers and wanted to have more just so that they could kill more Jews *elected!*? Those people remind me of the Ku Ku Klanners in the US. What we're fighting is a culture of death and they are the true repressors, just look at how they treat their own. Besides, can anyone here support an organization that is backed by the hard line government in Iran? The line about the boycotting professor is priceless too.
Originally Posted by Strike For The South:
Ice et. al: From reading earlier threads, it should be noted that the above is an EXACT summary of the position many Palestinians take on the issue, and one that is taught in their schools. Most of us view the USA as having assisted in the economic development of Israel and in providing for its defense (my view, btw), but to many Palestinians the very existence of Israel was an act of oppression rammed through the UN by the USA and the continued existence of the camps and Israel's disregard for Palestinian sovereignty an ongoing effort to oppress them.
Well we have given Isreal the means and they have used them to repress an entire populace:inquisitive:
Unlike at least one previous poster, I do not agree that the creation of Israel was a crime against morality – but it is apparent that possible long-term consequences were not fully considered. It would be hard to find another U.N. decision that has resulted in more bloodshed and turmoil, despite its noble intentions at the outset.
What to do now?
Israel IS in existence, has built a nation and culture of its own, and seems capable of defending itself. Most nations, if attacked, would choose some form of retaliation. Both the Palestinians and the Israelis view themselves as having been attacked and seek to retaliate.
There is one fundamental difference. Many of Israel’s opponents make no distinction whatsoever between civilian and non-civilian targets, with many purposefully selecting the “softer” civilian targets to minimize risk and/or maximize casualties. Israel, for all that it seems too cavalier about “collateral damage” (and I believe they have been at times), does not seek to target un-involved civilians.
Hezbollah’s latest attack was, at least, aiming for a military target – but the attacks from Gaza have been far more indiscriminate.
Louis suggests that a more “proportional” response is appropriate -- I disagree. I do not advocate nor would I condone the targeting of civilians – we concur fully in that, but I believe that the attack should provoke a broader and more damaging response, aiming to destroy the extra-national actor if possible, or to severely degrade their abilities if not. A proportional response would only beget more attacks. The better strategy is to build intelligence data and then strike to maximize damage.
Should the counter be with columns of troops? With surgical air-attacks? With covert assassinations/abductions? No one tactic should be relied upon entirely. A combination of all/several approaches is probably the most likely.
I disagree with those who always decry the use of the military because its use creates bad feelings. Their rationale is always "if you use the military, people will feel oppressed/be harmed thereby and the bad guys will have greater support and recruiting." Extending that logic, the best alternative is to disband the military. Can't use them, so they're just a waste of shekels. Too many folks have impression that the guerilla/terrorist will always win -- that it is impossible to counter low-intensity conflict -- but the number of guerilla/terrorist campaigns that win without first changing into a main-stream military effort is relatively few.
Sorry, I'll try to shut up sooner next time.
I agree 100% with the above.
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube:
I second that motion and move for ratification in the Great Book of Conservatism.
Go Israel.
All those who disagree, strap on a boomski device in support of your beloved Hamas. Go find a bus filled with women and children in Tel Aviv.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Go Israel. :israel:
WHat's wrong with the existence of Israel? Its a created state like all the other Arab states - based on conquest in the first place. We know that before the Arab conquest, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Iraq and Libya were not Arabic, and now they are Arabic through conquest. But we accept it do we not? Likewise, Israel is a product of conquest. Where once was an Arabic population is now an Arabic minority. I really do feel sorry for the Palestinians, but its their "Arab" brothers who have screwed them for refusing to negotiate a peace feal early after the 1948 war of independence or Al-Nakhba according to the Arabs. They kept them in squalor and used them as "propaganda" fodder to gain sympathy from the international community.
Heck, most of the states of the world was created through warfare and the displacement of other people. Lets just be a bit more wary before we call other people's country a mistake when our on country has done the thing ok?
No one is going suggest that America is mistake are they? (unless u really really hate Bush:P)
No is going to suggest that Britain is a mistake are they? (they made CA in the first place :D)
No is going to suggest China is a mistake are they? (Thank goodness for b-grade kung fu movies, chinese takeaway, and cheap goods ;)
Originally Posted by :
If by Britain you mean the UK.. I might, if I weren't so bloody tired.
No is going to suggest that Britain is a mistake are they?
This is just common sense.
If any nation is attacked constantly with rockets and has its soldiers killed and kidnapped, its government has an obligation to its populace to end the attacks.
Originally Posted by :
:laugh4:
People lets wake up. If Isreal wasnt Isreal theyd be royally shunned and be on the same plane as North Korea. If it wasnt for my countries blind support theyd already be there. I support a sperate Palistinan nation and all that good stuff. I also belive there is a HUGE jewish lobby in the USA however the reason we support the Isrealis is becuase they are thorns in the side of the arabs. The bottom line is this Isreal is a horrible country which uses America to forwared its intrests (not to mention steal our damned tech) I hope America stays out of this and Isreal has to fight on its own.
:laugh4:
Go Israel. :israel:
Let see now, we got a faction with considerble political influence that has justified thier existance by claiming the destruction of thier enemy. Since the conflict has almost stopped, they have constantly lost power and the calls for disarment has been growing stronger.
And then out of the blue, they "accidently" provoked a massive response from thier official enemy...
I can only hope that Israel plays this on the method of making the attack from Hizbollah looking very useless and damaging to Lebanon, while not villify themself too much in the process.
If Israel decides to re-occupy parts of Lebanon or has a large collateral damage record, I'm going to call them fools that prefer this situation compared to peace. :no:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh:
An attack that results in 7 dead and 2 captured Hizbollah members. Sure, if you could kill 70 Hizbollah members then it's fine, but not if the civilian casulities starts to reak up.
What would be an appropriate response to a specific attack on the Israeli military resulting in 7 dead and 2 captured and held hostage?
The one of mine = 100 of yours anti-partisan tactics doesn't work to well, if you simply starts killing more or less random people as they're "collaborators", more of the opposite.
Originally Posted by Ice:
Actually, I was referring to the situation with the incursion into Lebanon ... I'm keeping neutral on the Gaza situations ... I find Israel's tactics too heavy handed for my taste, but I dislike more the tactics employed by the terrorists. Although, I'm going to point out, that these tactics only make the terrorists stronger, and the situation later on will be that Israel will face a much more powerful enemy.
How would you feel if you pulled out of Gaza and get repaid by constant rocket attacks and a kidnapping/ransom demand of one of your soldiers? You can only poke the stronger man with a stick for so long before he gets pissed off and puts his foot up your ass.
A normal country would usually employ a somewhat different tactic when someone fires missiles over the border ... send the country's goverment an ultimatum to get rid of the terrorists, or the army will move in to handle the situation.
I'm not saying it's America's or the US' fault ... it's the British, they just began moving Jews into Palestine ignoring everything that the locals said, then, when the locals objected, strong-arming them into submission. After Israel was formed, things stayed the same. No wonder the place is so messed up.
Originally Posted by kataphraktoi:
Actually, I think Freud said America was a "giant mistake" but I forget the context. :2thumbsup:
No one is going suggest that America is mistake are they? (unless u really really hate Bush:P)
Fe-side:
I agree with you about avoiding civilian casualties -- and acknowledge that Israel has created more than necessary of same -- but a 7&2 for 7&2 program only perpetuates the "Hatfields v McCoys" thing that they already have going on and has zero chance of effecting a solution -- hence my alternative proposal.
Originally Posted by :
Read the word: Nine.
Since Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip nine months ago, more than 300 rockets, mostly Qassams, have been fired at adjacent Jewish neighborhoods. More than 10 rockets were fired last week alone.
Originally Posted by :
A very flawed comparision. As far as I know, USA hasn't attacked Canada/Mexico, and hasn't been killing chunks of their people for the last 4 decades. And also, USA isn't in anyway captivating a lot of Canadians/Mexicans from their own lands (Like, it hasn't went into Canada, took 10 people and throw them in its prisons).
I'm sure the US would react rather more harshly if, say, Canada or Mexico were lobbing missiles over the border on a regular basis, attacking their military and kidnapping their troops. The Yanks here would be demanding that those countries be turned to glass no doubt.
Originally Posted by :
Captives, captives and captives..
I don't know what the Israeli premier did wrong, he came into office on a ticket of making more concessions to the Palestinians and before he can do anything every terrorist in the mid-East is taking pot-shots. They smell weakness and they're obviously in no mood for negotiations.
Originally Posted by :
Pulling out of Gaza: You mean pulling out of a city with no buildings not raised?
We must recognize the situation as it stands now, affirm Israel's right to exist as well as the right of a free Palestinian state. The Israeilis have been unable to attain coopeation from the Palestinian Authority despite pulling out of Gaza, dismantling settlements, and taking diplomatic steps towards a two-state solution. The election of Hamas represents the will of the Palestinian people to engage Israel with violence in order to meet its objectives.
Dismantling settlements: In places where it'd cost more to keep than leave?
Originally Posted by :
I guess giving them what they want would be the best option. If all captives (That are captived with no right at all, or if you want to discard all that crap: WAR) are freed, there will be no motive for Lebanese or Palestinieans to wage war. And if there would be some extremist groups, they wouldn't receive any support.
Furthermore, if Israel acquiesces to the hostage takers, it will only encourage more hostage taking. And how is Israel to respond to rocket shelling from the Palestinian territories? Better question: How is Israel to respond to to rocket shelling fired from behgind civilian areas in Palestian territories?
Originally Posted by :
You said it: Soldiers. Not civilians, and I think that covers it.
and maybe the title of this thread should be hizbullah attack kidnap 2 israeli soldiers kill 8 more and then israel reitaliates which country would just let there captured soldiers not be rescued?
Originally Posted by :
Last time I discussed the term "Terrorists" in the ORG, I got answered that it refers to those who terrorize and kill civilians. Now, just as I said before: How can you rank Hesbullah as a "terrorist" when he does neither of both?
Didn't they already learn that responding to terrorists with tank divisions and army operations is counterproductive? All it does is give more men and materiel to the terrorists, which the operations are meant to curb.
Originally Posted by :
Those kidnappings are justified, as they are for enemy soldiers, and the enemy have a LOT more already "kidnapped".
There's a good reason for not negotiating with terrorists- you'd just encourage more kidnappings.
Originally Posted by :
Go Israel.Originally Posted by :
I think if you are so biased, you shouldn't even try to argue.
I second that motion and move for ratification in the Great Book of Conservatism.
Let's just see how badly Israel shoots itself in the foot with it's terrorism from above... oops... I mean heavy yet "justifiable collateral damage".
Originally Posted by x-dANGEr:
Yes indeed x-danger read the word nine. Since Israel's withdraw from the Gaza Strip 300 missiles have been fired into Israel. In other words for the last nine monthes violence has been occuring by both sides. The Palenstine Terrorist groups such as Hezbelloh and Hamas do not want peace with Israel only its destruction.
Read the word: Nine.
Now Israel is just as flawed with a recent artillery strike on a beach and now attacking into another nation going after a terrorist group.
Both sides are equally at fault in the violence. Remember it takes two to have a fight.
Originally Posted by :
THe United States does extradiction all the time with both Canada and Mexico. The United States even has some bounty hunters that go into Mexico and take fugitives from justice.
A very flawed comparision. As far as I know, USA hasn't attacked Canada/Mexico, and hasn't been killing chunks of their people for the last 4 decades. And also, USA isn't in anyway captivating a lot of Canadians/Mexicans from their own lands (Like, it hasn't went into Canada, took 10 people and throw them in its prisons).
The flaw is that Hezbelloh has been attacking Israel from the border areas and believes that Lebanon is a safe haven for them. Well Israel is guilty of an act of war against Lebanon because it sent its army across the border. But then the United States has done that with Mexico (a historical point) when we sent troops south into Mexico in an attempt to capture Pancho Villa. Lebanon might want to review its policies about Hezbelloh if it does not want another nation to remove a criminal element that strikes across into their border. It does not make what Israel is doing right - but it does make it understandable. When the police of the nation refuse to address the criminal element eventual someone else will.
Originally Posted by :
Palenstine prisoners captured by Israel for doing criminal acts are not capitives. People taken without criminal charges are indeed captives. So are you attempting to claim that the Palenstine freedom fighers (ie I call them terrorists) taking Israel soldiers captive by kidnapping is a justifable act?
Captives, captives and captives..
Originally Posted by :
The Palenstine authority got exactly what it asked for - the land. The buildings were built by Israel were they not?
Pulling out of Gaza: You mean pulling out of a city with no buildings not raised?
Dismantling settlements: In places where it'd cost more to keep than leave?
Originally Posted by :
Captives are not the motivation for the violence done by Palenstine Terror organizations.
I guess giving them what they want would be the best option. If all captives (That are captived with no right at all, or if you want to discard all that crap: WAR) are freed, there will be no motive for Lebanese or Palestinieans to wage war. And if there would be some extremist groups, they wouldn't receive any support.
Originally Posted by :
Kidnapping soldiers is an act of war - guess what Israel responded with?
You said it: Soldiers. Not civilians, and I think that covers it.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Originally Posted by :
Hezbullah attacks with missles into civilian areas. Hezbullah supplies weapons to Palenstine terrorists. Etc etc etc.
Last time I discussed the term "Terrorists" in the ORG, I got answered that it refers to those who terrorize and kill civilians. Now, just as I said before: How can you rank Hesbullah as a "terrorist" when he does neither of both?
Originally Posted by :
Then you must agree that a military response by Israel is also justfied since enemy soldiers (terrorists) attacked an Israeli outpost to kidnap those same soldiers. An act of war.
Those kidnappings are justified, as they are for enemy soldiers, and the enemy have a LOT more already "kidnapped".
Originally Posted by :
If the shoe fits - maybe you should also wear it.
I think if you are so biased, you shouldn't even try to argue.
Ok, I normally support Isreal, but the current turn of events seems bewildering. There are a host of problems with Isreal launching large-scale invasions of Gaza and especially Lebanon. This escalation of the conflict far exceeds Isreal's normal response to attacks, and is a huge setback to whatever remnants of the peace process remained.
I understand Isreal's desire to retrieve its kidnapped soldiers. But these invasions are throwing the fledgling Palestinian state and Lebanon into chaos, and I fear the terrorist factions will capitalize. Progress made toward establishing a viable, stable Palestinian state is being destroyed - it will take years to rebuild the damaged infrastructure. Will it always be this way - one step forward and three steps back? :wall:
I don't really know how Isreal should respond, and I don't want to argue about it - I'm just sick of this entire headache. :shame:
Redleg, through that post, I get it that you are a 10 years old kid who just knew what Palestine is? Nothing personal mate, but half of what you posted is wrong & manipulating. (Hmm.. Since it is manipulating, maybe older)
Originally Posted by :
Don't just hijack an arguement and start arguing things not there.. I said no way Hamas/Kassam would lunch 100 missiles a month (Which was posted by some member), so you are simply prooving my point, thank you. (This prooves that you're just arguing for the heck of it.. Stick to a point and back it up)
Yes indeed x-danger read the word nine. Since Israel's withdraw from the Gaza Strip 300 missiles have been fired into Israel. In other words for the last nine monthes violence has been occuring by both sides.
Originally Posted by :
Hesbullah isn't Palestinian, which leads us to reason number 2 of believing you know nothing.. Hmm also, you mean that "The Palestinian Terrorist groups as Husbullah and Hamas do not want peace with the terrorist group Israel, only its destruction", don't you? Since you say:
The Palenstine Terrorist groups such as Hezbelloh and Hamas do not want peace with Israel only its destruction.
Originally Posted by :
And:
Both sides are equally at fault in the violence. Remember it takes two to have a fight.
Originally Posted by :
Already said it.. Hesubullah attacked Israeli soldiers, if Israel is to attack Hesbullah soldiers, then it'd be protecting it self, not by killing everyone in front.
Lebanon might want to review its policies about Hezbelloh if it does not want another nation to remove a criminal element that strikes across into their border. It does not make what Israel is doing right - but it does make it understandable. When the police of the nation refuse to address the criminal element eventual someone else will.
Originally Posted by :
You now 100% proove you're a rookie to the whole matter (Reason number 3): What is the percent of the prisoners held by Israel are held there for "justice" do you think? I can tell you, it exceeds not 10%, and I'm not talking about the Palestinian ones only, a lot of Lebanese from the south were captived after those masscarces.. And yes, I'm saying that if Israel is keeping all these 'captives' with no hope of freeing them, something must be done to free them.
Palenstine prisoners captured by Israel for doing criminal acts are not capitives. People taken without criminal charges are indeed captives. So are you attempting to claim that the Palenstine freedom fighers (ie I call them terrorists) taking Israel soldiers captive by kidnapping is a justifable act?
Originally Posted by :
Not.
The Palenstine authority got exactly what it asked for - the land. The buildings were built by Israel were they not?
Originally Posted by :
Oh, I forgot you're the head of Hamas.. Evidence? Because in each ex speech, the goal was clearly stated "captives". Btw: The topic is about Hesbullah, Lebanon and Israel BTW.. I guess you have something against Palestine, and Palestinians as a whole since you keep getting them between your nails, with un-evident cruel words.
Captives are not the motivation for the violence done by Palenstine Terror organizations.
Originally Posted by :
Let's say it this way: Israel holding captives is an act of war, guess what Hesbullah responded with?
Kidnapping soldiers is an act of war - guess what Israel responded with?
Originally Posted by :
Reason N.4 making me believe you're a rookie to whole this.. :
Hezbullah attacks with missles into civilian areas. Hezbullah supplies weapons to Palenstine terrorists. Etc etc etc.
Hesbullah never started an attack on civilian areas.. This incident is another proof: He carried an attack on some soldiers, Israel responded with attacks into civilian areas, and so Hesbullah's attacks developed and kept up with that level.
Originally Posted by :
Yea I do, but not on CIVILIANS!
Then you must agree that a military response by Israel is also justfied since enemy soldiers (terrorists) attacked an Israeli outpost to kidnap those same soldiers. An act of war.
Originally Posted by :
I actually look at you when I read this..
If the shoe fits - maybe you should also wear it.
Oh.. One last note: Since both Israelis, Palestinians and Hesbullah are in the same fault, why do you keep calling the last two terrorists and the first not?
Originally Posted by x-dANGEr:
Your wrong on so many accounts it is rather amusing to read.
Redleg, through that post, I get it that you are a 10 years old kid who just knew what Palestine is? Nothing personal mate, but half of what you posted is wrong & manipulating. (Hmm.. Since it is manipulating, maybe older)
Originally Posted by :
The point again you missed - 300 missiles have been fired in the last 9 monthes. VIolence is indeed being done by the Palenstine terror groups. Hezbollah and Hamas.
Don't just hijack an arguement and start arguing things not there.. I said no way Hamas/Kassam would lunch 100 missiles a month (Which was posted by some member), so you are simply prooving my point, thank you. (This prooves that you're just arguing for the heck of it.. Stick to a point and back it up)
Hezbollah is supporting the Palenstine terror organization Hamas with its current operations. Israel was not in Lebanon prior to the kidnapping now was it?
Maybe you should also learn to read english a little better. I proved both of you were incorrect. Nine monthes of violence with 300 missiles being launched. This equates to 30 missiles a month - which means the production rate of missiles is greater then you alledged but less then what the other individual stated.
Originally Posted by :
Try reading again did I claim Hezbollah is a Palenstine terrorist group or did I stated Palenstine Terrorist groups. Next time for the poor english skills you demonstrated from your failure to read (and my lazy typing) - I will clearly label Hamas as a Palenstine Terror group and Hezbollah as an Islamic Arab Terror Groupd with Links to a terrorist state sponsor Iran. Guess where Hezbollah is attempting to send the two Israeli soldiers they kidnapped?
Hesbullah isn't Palestinian, which leads us to reason number 2 of believing you know nothing.. Hmm also, you mean that "The Palestinian Terrorist groups as Husbullah and Hamas do not want peace with the terrorist group Israel, only its destruction", don't you? Since you say:
I happen to know who and what Hezbollah is - founded with the help of Iran during the Lebanon civil war of period (1980). Are you attempting to deny that the Islamic Arab group that is a political party and a terror organization known as Hezbollah is not supporting Hamas in its avowed destruction of Israel?
Originally Posted by :
Then you must understand that an act of war often necessates another act of war. Hezbollah had no justification to kidnap Israeli soldiers that were on the Israeli side of the border. You might want to think before you go defending a terrorist act or an aggressive act of war committed by Hezbollah.
And:
Already said it.. Hesubullah attacked Israeli soldiers, if Israel is to attack Hesbullah soldiers, then it'd be protecting it self, not by killing everyone in front.
(depending on how you view Hezbollah)
Originally Posted by :
Try again.
You now 100% proove you're a rookie to the whole matter (Reason number 3): What is the percent of the prisoners held by Israel are held there for "justice" do you think? I can tell you, it exceeds not 10%, and I'm not talking about the Palestinian ones only, a lot of Lebanese from the south were captived after those masscarces.. And yes, I'm saying that if Israel is keeping all these 'captives' with no hope of freeing them, something must be done to free them.
Here I will help you understand the simple english that you failed to read.. Are you blindly baised in your support of terror organizations that you failed to catch the actual meaning of the statement?
Palenstine prisoners captured by Israel for doing criminal acts are not capitives.
This part you got correct. Indeed some prisoners are indeed criminals caught in the act and have been charged of a crime.
People taken without criminal charges are indeed captives.
Oh look you failed to catch this part of the paragraph - You might want to check out your own failures to read because of your own baised views before accusing others of ignorance.
So are you attempting to claim that the Palenstine freedom fighers (ie I call them terrorists) taking Israel soldiers captive by kidnapping is a justifable act?
Now that is simply a question, are you supporting the use of terror to attempt to free those captives? What has the average Israeli citizen done to deserve such an attack by Hamas or yes even Hezbollah who does indeed launch missiles into Israel from the border?
Originally Posted by :
Your proof?
Not.
Originally Posted by :
I forgot your a blind supporter of Hamas and its terror tactics (I to can play this game. Must be your age and your own ignorance of the issues that causes you to miss critical parts of the statement. Care to play some more?)
Oh, I forgot you're the head of Hamas..
Originally Posted by :
Hezbollah is supporting Hamas - you might want to check out the number of weapons being smuggled to Hamas by Hezbollah. That and the missile technology..... Hezbollah has been linked to several terrorist attacks with Palenstine groups against Israel from Wikipedia
Evidence? Because in each ex speech, the goal was clearly stated "captives". Btw: The topic is about Hesbullah, Lebanon and Israel BTW.. I guess you have something against Palestine, and Palestinians as a whole since you keep getting them between your nails, with un-evident cruel words.
Originally Posted by Wikipedia:
I don't support neither Israel or the Palenstine terror groups. I find both at fault. The terror groups I find slightly more at fault because the cowards attack civilians and use kids to carryout the attacks. I wonder if you support the using of teenage children to carry out sucide bombings? (again do you care to play this type of game?)
Hezbollah activities in the al-Aqsa Intifada
Main article: al-Aqsa Intifada
Recruits being sworn in - Beirut, November 11, 2001In December 2001 three Hezbollah operatives were caught in Jordan while attempting to bring in BM-13 Katyusha rockets into the West Bank. Syed Hassan Nasrallah secretary general of Hezbollah, responded that "It is every freedom loving peoples right and duty against occupation to send arms to Palestinians from any possible place."[29]
During 2002, 2003 and 2004, the Israeli Security Forces thwarted numerous suicide bombing attacks, some of which Israel claims were planned and funded by Hezbollah and were to have been carried out by Tanzim (Fatah's armed wing) activists. Israeli officials accused Hezbollah of aiding Palestinian terrorism and participating in weapon smuggling (see also: Santorini, Karin A).
On June 16, 2004, two Palestinian girls — aged 14 and 15 — were arrested by the Israeli Defense Forces for plotting a suicide bombing. [30] According to an IDF statement, the two minors were recruited by Tanzim activists. [31] On June 23, 2004, another allegedly Hezbollah-funded suicide bombing attack was foiled by the Israeli security forces. [32].
In February 2005 the Palestinian Authority accused Hezbollah of attempting to derail the truce signed with Israel. Palestinian officials and former militants described how Hezbollah promised an increase in funding for any occupation resistance group able to carry out an attack on Israeli military targets [33]. Since the May 2000 Israeli withdrawal, Hezbollah has continued fighting the IDF around the disputed 10 km²-Shebaa Farms area on the Lebanese-Syrian border. Although the UN regards Shebaa Farms — 14 farms on the western slope of Mount Hermon, near the village of Shebaa — as Syrian territory, The Lebanese government and Hezbollah considers the area a part of Lebanon. The Shebaa farms were taken by Israel from Syria during the 1967 war. Syria was asked to notify the UN that it considered the Shebaa farms to be part of Lebanon, but no official statement was ever sent. Some argue that Hezbollah is being used by Syria and Iran as a proxy against Israel. [34]
Originally Posted by :
Let's say it this way: Israel holding captives is an act of war, guess what Hesbullah responded with?
Are you attempting to state Israel has not honored the peace that was negotated back in 1995 and completed in 2000 with Hezbollah?
Originally Posted by Wikipedia:
I would state that both sides are violating the agreement.
After years of cross-border attacks from Lebanon into Israel, by Palestinian militants, Israel invaded southern Lebanon in 1982. The stated goal of the operation was an attempt to evict the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) and other militant groups, but Israel remained in southern Lebanon for the next 18 years. After UN resolution 1995, Israel withdrew in the spring of 2000, under the Prime Minister Ehud Barak, a former Chief of Staff who had actually in that position personally ruled over the security zone. The UN confirmed that Israel complied with all the requirements in SC resolution 1995. Since this time, the militant group Hezbollah set up bases of operation in the area in contradiction to the UN SC resolution 1995 which required the Lebanese government to dismantle any armed militias operating in the area. Hezbollah and the Lebanese government cited the constant violation of Lebanese air space by Israeli planes, and the occupation of Shebaa Farms, a territory which they consider Lebanese, but which is not considered as such according to international law.
Are you also attempting to claim the missile attacks into civilian areas that were used as a diversion to kidnap the soldiers is also justified?
Originally Posted by :
Care to explain this particlur quote from several news articles - you can also find it at Wikipedia to make it simple for you.
Reason N.4 making me believe you're a rookie to whole this.. :
Hesbullah never started an attack on civilian areas.. This incident is another proof: He carried an attack on some soldiers, Israel responded with attacks into civilian areas, and so Hesbullah's attacks developed and kept up with that level.
Originally Posted by :
Careful now - Hezbollah is not the organization that you believe it to be. It is a terror organization that uses strikes against civilians also. It seems Hezbollah own actions belie your claim here.
Besides the initial raid, Hezbollah guerrillas targeted several Israeli towns with Katyusha rockets. There were numerous civilian casualties including a 40 year old woman who was killed in Nahariya and a 70 year old woman was killed in Safed. Hezbollah has threatened to hit Haifa. [24]
Originally Posted by :
See above
Yea I do, but not on CIVILIANS!
Originally Posted by :
You might want to look in the mirror.
I actually look at you when I read this..
Originally Posted by :
Israel I find at fault many times - you might want to go back and read earlier threads about this issue. It seems though you confuse my critizism of Hamas and Hezbollah as blind support of Israel. It would serve you better to actually read what is written versus assume things not in evidence.
Oh.. One last note: Since both Israelis, Palestinians and Hesbullah are in the same fault, why do you keep calling the last two terrorists and the first not?
This reminds me of a previous discussion on Israel and Palenstine.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
I'll wager ten camels that Hizbullah will invoke the Sabra and Shatila card. Any takers?
Originally Posted by Dâriûsh:
Well that arguement has been implied alreadly in this thread by someone....
I'll wager ten camels that Hizbullah will invoke the Sabra and Shatila card. Any takers?
It won't surprise me to see Hezbollah actually state that in the very near future. Probably as they attempt to send the two Israeli captives outside of Lebanon. But what the hell, the talks in Eygpt might pan out and prove us both wrong.
Originally Posted by :
Just a little note.. Not everything in the whole world revolves around you, I wasn't addressing you when I quoted your pessage..
Maybe you should also learn to read english a little better. I proved both of you were incorrect. Nine monthes of violence with 300 missiles being launched. This equates to 30 missiles a month - which means the production rate of missiles is greater then you alledged but less then what the other individual stated.
Originally Posted by :
You actually claimed that Hesbullah is a Palestinian terrorist group, or that is what would a sane person get from this:
Try reading again did I claim Hezbollah is a Palenstine terrorist group or did I stated Palenstine Terrorist groups. Next time for the poor english skills you demonstrated from your failure to read (and my lazy typing) - I will clearly label Hamas as a Palenstine Terror group and Hezbollah as an Islamic Arab Terror Groupd with Links to a terrorist state sponsor Iran. Guess where Hezbollah is attempting to send the two Israeli soldiers they kidnapped?
Originally Posted by :
The Palenstine Terrorist groups such as Hezbelloh and Hamas do not want peace with Israel only its destruction.Originally Posted by :
Then, Israel has no justification to keep the captives captived.
Then you must understand that an act of war often necessates another act of war. Hezbollah had no justification to kidnap Israeli soldiers that were on the Israeli side of the border. You might want to think before you go defending a terrorist act or an aggressive act of war committed by Hezbollah.
(depending on how you view Hezbollah)
Originally Posted by :
Well, I do think that 'conditions' of that peace was to set free the prisoners, and that hasn't been done, even once in the whole Israeli history without a trade.
Are you attempting to state Israel has not honored the peace that was negotated back in 1995 and completed in 2000 with Hezbollah?
Originally Posted by :
I have no info of such attacks.
Are you also attempting to claim the missile attacks into civilian areas that were used as a diversion to kidnap the soldiers is also justified?
Originally Posted by :
I'm not going to start exhanging childish comments with you, such as "look in the mirror" bla bla bla..
Care to explain this particlur quote from several news articles - you can also find it at Wikipedia to make it simple for you.
I stopped the arguement last time, because I'd ask you what's the color of that dog, you'd say it's a cat.
That quote in no way implies that all that happened at once. Yes, he did attack cities, but only after Israel started their millitary actions. And to try and simplify things for you: If you were a Lebanese, you want the captives back, Israel offers a stance of 'no way' to you, what would you do to free them? You asked the help of the community, but you keep getting forgotten through the numerous tragedies in the world, what would you do again?
Originally Posted by :
AGAIN! I ask you a question, you forget about it, and say that I say things I haven't actually said. My question was clearly stated:
Israel I find at fault many times - you might want to go back and read earlier threads about this issue. It seems though you confuse my critizism of Hamas and Hezbollah as blind support of Israel. It would serve you better to actually read what is written versus assume things not in evidence.
Since both Israelis, Palestinians and Hesbullah are in the same fault, why do you keep calling the last two terrorists and the first not?
If you look at your post, you'd see that you always made sure to mention "terrorist" concerning Hesbullah and Hamas, but forgot about it when it comes to Israel, even though you say that you think they are at the same fault.
Just because Israel shares “fault” doesn’t mean they are terrorists. :freak:
Originally Posted by yesdachi:
I bet a lot of the Lebanese civilians killed in Israeli bombardments would disagree if they could.
Just because Israel shares “fault” doesn’t mean they are terrorists. :freak:
Originally Posted by Dâriûsh:
i'm sure there are some still living (though sans limbs at this point) that would agree too.
I bet a lot of the Lebanese civilians killed in Israeli bombardments would disagree if they could.
As for Zionist conspiracy theories, is this whole thing staged to distract attention from President Katsav’s sex scandal? Stay tuned on Al-Manar.
Collateral damage from a military attack is not terrorism.
Originally Posted by yesdachi:
Oh? okay. :juggle2:
Collateral damage from a military attack is not terrorism.
Originally Posted by x-dANGEr:
When one starts his post with an ad hominem arguement against another person certain statements by individuals will be taken the wrong way, maybe you should specify who you are directing comments to when you start out quoting one individual and go on to another. You might want to take your own statement in account, since you begain your post quoting me and then continued with your argument directed at my comments..
Just a little note.. Not everything in the whole world revolves around you, I wasn't addressing you when I quoted your pessage.
It seems your again making assumptions.
And It seems you still fail..
Originally Posted by :
Like I stated must be my poor typing skills and your poor english reading skills - time to move on....or would you like to continue to play?
You actually claimed that Hesbullah is a Palestinian terrorist group, or that is what would a sane person get from this:
Originally Posted by :
Never claimed they did now did I. Are you still of the opinion that the attacks on civilians are justified because Israel keeps some captives? Your argument is based upon moral relativity and emotional appeal. That one party is doing a wrong does not make the other parties actions right.
Then, Israel has no justification to keep the captives captived.
Originally Posted by :
Care to place a wager on that. If my faultly memory serves me correctly - Israel in the past has released captives.
Well, I do think that 'conditions' of that peace was to set free the prisoners, and that hasn't been done, even once in the whole Israeli history without a trade.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...54C0A963948260
Originally Posted by article:
Its old data - but it kinds of defeats your arguement here now doesn't.
On July 3 Israel freed 300 prisoners from Atlit and drove them over the border into Lebanon.
Although the release came three days after Shiite militiamen freed 39 American hostages from a hijacked Trans World Airlines jetliner in Beirut, Israel said the release was not linked in any way to the hijackers' demand that Israel release its Lebanese prisoners.
Originally Posted by :
Hm that kind of defeats your arguement about me being a rookie.... Next time you might want to research nuetral web sites before making certain claims.
I have no info of such attacks.
Originally Posted by :
Your learning now... Maybe you shouldn't start with them either.
I'm not going to start exhanging childish comments with you, such as "look in the mirror" bla bla bla..
Originally Posted by :
Again incorrect - you left when the facts were going against your arguement, and it wasn't just me in that thread that was pointing out the errors in your arguement. Just like several instances in this thread alreadly.
I stopped the arguement last time, because I'd ask you what's the color of that dog, you'd say it's a cat.
Originally Posted by :
The quote clearly states that civilians were attack before the kidnapping as a diversion to the soldiers being kidnapped. This would indicate to any sane individual that Hezbollah started the action.
That quote in way implies that all that happened at once. Yes, he did attack cities, but only after Israel started their millitary actions. And to try and simplify things for you: If you were a Lebanese, you want the captives back, Israel offers a stance of 'no way' to you, what would you do to free them? You asked the help of the community, but you keep getting forgotten through the numerous tragedies in the world, what would you do again?
That Hezbollah is attacking Israeli cities with missiles after Israel's attack is the implication you wish it to imply - but it does not. it clearly states the implications of the diversionary attack in the complete article. You might want to do a little web research.
I could provide you the Wikipedia source - but since I am at work now it willhave to wait... But regardless - your statement here is incorrect - it did not imply it stated it, and it verifies that within the article itself. A little research will pay you wonders in dividends about the situation - versus poor attempts at calling someone a rookie - when you do not have the facts to support your own position. Emotional appeal arguements often fail when faced with facts.
If I was Lebanese I wouldn't be attacking into Israel with anything. If I was Lebanese I would be removing Hezabollah from the southern border camps to prevent their engaging across the border with Israel. In other words I would be attempting to honor the accords of the peace treaty that I agreed to.
Now if I was an Islamic Terrorist I would be doing exactly what Hezbollah is doing now - using terror tactics to attempt to cause the changes I want. However it seems to backfired on them now doesn't?
So doyou support the Hezbollah terror wing and the Hamas Terror wing in the conduction of terror attacks on civilians?
Originally Posted by :
You asked a question you got an answer - I am under no obligation to give you the answer you want, only the answer that I believe.
AGAIN! I ask you a question, you forget about it, and say that I say things I haven't actually said. My question was clearly stated:
Originally Posted by :
One is a state the other two are know terrorist organizations - the answer is self evident to anyone who is not an avert terrorist supporter... Finding fault with a nation is more then enough - Hamas and Hezbollah are known terrorist organizations, care to guess how many nations have those two organizations on their terrorist watch lists. Care to play sematics with me - I am more then game..
Since both Israelis, Palestinians and Hesbullah are in the same fault, why do you keep calling the last two terrorists and the first not?
If you look at your post, you'd see that you always made sure to mention "terrorist" concerning Hesbullah and Hamas, but forgot about it when it comes to Israel, even though you say that you think they are at the same fault.
It seems your still having a problem understanding the difference from a nation that uses terror tactics against terrorist organizations and terrorist organizations - both are equally at fault. But ask yourself this question when was the last time Israel sent a child into a bus with a bomb strapped to their chest to become a matyr to God......
So far -
Redleg -1 for writing Palenstine Terror Organizations Hezballoh and Hamas.
X-Danger -3 - no knowledge of missile attacks into civilian cities as a diversion, no knowledge of previous prisoner releases by Israel, and for claiming that Hezbollah has never attacked civilian areas.
Oh the aspects of being called a rookie by someone who will not read neutral papers from multiple sources about anything in the Middle-East.
I have become rather amused with your attempts here.. :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Hmm, seems Redleg and X-dANGEr have taken up where Gawain and I left off. I wonder if George and Martha will show up as well?
Originally Posted by Beirut:
THere is a major difference though - I don't defend Israel actions. I am simply calling a bunch of thugs a bunch of thugs.
Hmm, seems Redleg and X-dANGEr have taken up where Gawain and I left off. I wonder if George and Martha will show up as well?
IIf you can't tell the difference Beriut - maybe you should bring George and Martha into the scene - they sometimes demonstrate more common sense on the issue then you yourself do.
Originally Posted by x-dANGEr:
That is true, but now the Palestinians and Hezbullah have to accept that they have declared an overt state of 'war' by such acts and accept the consequences. You never know, you might just win a stand-up fight with Israel. Though I doubt it. Sneak attacks, suicide bombs and kidnappings are about the limit I think. Your best chance is to draw Israeli forces into heavily urbanised areas, but do you want to endanger your civilians to such an extent?
Those kidnappings are justified, as they are for enemy soldiers.
Originally Posted by yesdachi:
Not in my paradigm...
Collateral damage from a military attack is not terrorism.
Yeah, it's not on par with suicide bombing nightclubs, but you ever hear of "terrorism from above"?
Originally Posted by Redleg:
Well! Hello to you too.
THere is a major difference though - I don't defend Israel actions. I am simply calling a bunch of thugs a bunch of thugs.
IIf you can't tell the difference Beriut - maybe you should bring George and Martha into the scene - they sometimes demonstrate more common sense on the issue then you yourself do.
One friendly post remarking that the debate continues and there's already hostility. Back to the Frontroom.
Originally Posted by Beirut:
Then I must apologize because I read it as a snide remark - not a friendly post.
Well! Hello to you too.
One friendly post remarking that the debate continues and there's already hostility. Back to the Frontroom.
Originally Posted by Redleg:
perchance you need to get out of the backroom a bit? :wink:
Then I must apologize because I read it as a snide remark - not a friendly post.
(Beirut, what innocence! you must include all appropriate smilies in any non-attack post in the backroom, mang!)
Originally Posted by Big_John:
What and disappoint my fans.......
perchance you need to get out of the backroom a bit? :wink:
I have at least restricted my time in the backroom to primarily when I am at work......:help:
When I get home I will have to play the game "Destroy all Humans" if I can just get past the Duck and Cover mission..... Then I can finish destroying all of humanity........:oops:
Originally Posted by Red Peasant:
If you have no problem sending your own children as suicide bombers, I´d think the answer to your question is rather easy...
Your best chance is to draw Israeli forces into heavily urbanised areas, but do you want to endanger your civilians to such an extent?
Hmm, now i think that calling someone who sends his own people as suicide bombers a freedom fighter is somewhat absurd, because he fights for freedom of his people on earth and those bombers will never experience that.
And I don´t like to read those comments about "collateral damage", calling real people "collateral damage" smells like monkeysphere.
Always think about your own neighbors or family being part of that "collateral damage" and how you would feel about it then.
Same goes for Israelis being blown up by rockets and bombs for the faults of their government. Not to mention killing people for someone who is imprisoned is disgusting and doesn´t help the Palestinians in any way.
On the other side, Palestine imprisoned one soldier and got invaded for that, now Hisbollah took two soldiers hostage and expected what? A nice letter demanding them back?
I think Hisbollah are indirectly responsible for the dead Lebanese people because they provoked this attack. It´s still Israel´s fault because they pull the trigger, but Hisbollah should´ve known what would happen and simply not attacked Israel. Same goes for the Palestinians, if they do nothing(but using diplomacy) and will still be invaded, they`ll have my support.
Originally Posted by Redleg:
Not at all. Not at all. :bow:
Then I must apologize because I read it as a snide remark - not a friendly post.
Merely remarking that as the years and members go by, the issue remains on the emotional front burner.
It's hard to think the Middle East could get any more depressing, but it just seems to have done.
It's kind of ironic that some hope should have been created by Syria pulling out of Lebanon and Israel out of Gaza. And then we get this - terrorists from these "liberated" areas (freedom fighters, whatever you want to call them) kidnapping Israeli soldiers ostensibly to use as bargaining chips. In reality I suspect it is just to provoke an Israeli reaction since escalating the conflict will strengthen the position of the hardliners (and yes, I suspect Israel is playing right into their hands).
Now terrorism often happens despite the best efforts of the authorities - in New York, Iraq, Madrid, London etc. But what is salient about these events is that both the Palestinian and Lebanese authorities seem to be openly colluding in the kidnappings. Hamas is the elected Palestinian governments and its attempts to distance its political wing from its military wing are even more laughable than those of Sinn Fein/IRA during Ireland's recent troubles. From a Lebanese professor on the BBC, I gather the Lebanese government supports the Hizbollah actions against Israel (as she did).
Now, I confess I am not very well informed about the Middle East. I am certainly no pro-Israeli hawk - my gut instinct is that they should get out of all the occupied territories, smash their stupid wall and share Jerusalem. But it does seem a bizarre state of affairs when one state (actually two states) condone such actions against a neighbour being undertaken from their territory. I find all the "War against Terror" rhetoric of my own country (and of the US) inappropriate when applied to stateless and elusive networks like Al Qaida. But in the case of Israel, it is hard to see these kidnappings (and the rocket attacks, and the suicide bombings etc) backed by their neighbours as anything other than acts of war.
But what makes the thing particularly depressing, beyond the carnage and loss of life that is going on, is that it seems all so pointless. The welfare of the Palestinians and the Lebanese, already devastated by past conflict, is being brought to a new low by the destruction of power stations, airports, withdrawals of aid, trade sanctions and blockades etc. Their governments seem to be conspiring in a course of events that will further impoverish and immiserate their own people. You do not secure life, liberty and pursuit of happiness by attacking or blackmailing your neighbour. Siezing some more pieces of land off Israel won't make them rich, still less will trying to drive Israel into the sea. They should look at Singapore, South Korea, Botswana, Mauritius, heck even China and India now to see how a people can develop - and it is through peaceful hard work, not fighting for land. They should put aside their petty hatreds and grievances, and get on with living constructive lives and providing for their children, not training them for death.
And the real kicker is that there is no real suggestion that the Lebanese and Palestinian governments, by colluding in attacks on Israel, are doing anything other than what the majority of their own people want. If ever there was an example of the folly of man, this would surely be it.
I have been educated in conflict management and have served as a mediator at the lower court level. The Middle East leaves me shaking my head.
I turn more and more to the conclusion that the world is doing a disservice by crying out against the bloodshed. I fear that the only long-term solution is for all of the parties to engage in all out war, killing one another in the millions. Once all sides are bled white and no one is left who does not mourn some loved one then maybe they will decide to sit down at a table, talk through a few points, and then live up to them.
We outside of the Middle East cannot bring them to that table (we don't have to live with the solutions, so our efforts appear condescending) many of those who are a part of the Middle East cannot settle for the solutions that have been proffered when they feel in their hearts that full victory is at hand if only enough of their companions will fight.
I fear that all of our external efforts -- however noble (and I think most were noble in intent even when short-sighted and arrogant) -- do nothing but prolong the agony. One of the saddest lessons of conflict management is that sometimes there is no way to avoid the conflict....it must be fought.
And may God/Allah/Yahweh have mercy on their souls.
postscrip #1: One poster suggested that it takes two to fight. This is incorrect. Conflict can be very unilateral, it is stopping it that requires multiple efforts.
postscrip #2: The posters suggesting that "collateral damage" -- that is, to label it properly, the killing and maiming of uninvolved parties by happenstance -- is a form of terrorism do a dis-service to humanity. If they are correct, then all war is terrorism, and by extension any form of violence to anyone and at any time may be justified for "the cause." Do you really think the world will grow safer if any accidental killing is considered terrorism? Or have you not developed an opinion more complex than "violence is bad...."
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh:
I agree with you that both sides are obviously keen to fight, and in such cases, nothing can be done to stop them from fighting.
I have been educated in conflict management and have served as a mediator at the lower court level. The Middle East leaves me shaking my head.
I turn more and more to the conclusion that the world is doing a disservice by crying out against the bloodshed. I fear that the only long-term solution is for all of the parties to engage in all out war, killing one another in the millions. Once all sides are bled white and no one is left who does not mourn some loved one then maybe they will decide to sit down at a table, talk through a few points, and then live up to them.
We outside of the Middle East cannot bring them to that table (we don't have to live with the solutions, so our efforts appear condescending) many of those who are a part of the Middle East cannot settle for the solutions that have been proffered when they feel in their hearts that full victory is at hand if only enough of their companions will fight.
I fear that all of our external efforts -- however noble (and I think most were noble in intent even when short-sighted and arrogant) -- do nothing but prolong the agony. One of the saddest lessons of conflict management is that sometimes there is no way to avoid the conflict....it must be fought.
And may God/Allah/Yahweh have mercy on their souls.
My preferred solution is to seal the area off. No-one from either Israel nor Palestine allowed to set foot in Europe. If anyone currently in Europe sets foot in that area, their EU citizenship to be stripped and not allowed back in. No trade, no aid. If they want to kill each other, let them do so, but do not get us involved, it's none of our business. We gave up the idea of empire 50 years ago when we were kicked out, so don't try and attach any blame to us for something that has been beyond our control for over half a century. No-one wants to listen to us, so I don't see why we should continue to offer advice.
OT Postscipt # 2
If you keep extrapolating it you end up with doctors being terrorists if someone accidentally dies under the knife.
Originally Posted by Papewaio:
Well put. You extend my point well, and better than I did it myself.
OT Postscipt # 2
If you keep extrapolating it you end up with doctors being terrorists if someone accidentally dies under the knife.
Gaads...
Now I'll have to re-think my Paul-Hogan influenced view of Australians....
:laugh4: :2thumbsup:
Originally Posted by Kommodus:
I remember AdrianII's assessment of Olmert months ago (when Sharon had a stroke), that's he's a hardliner. Adrian's correct.
Ok, I normally support Isreal, but the current turn of events seems bewildering. There are a host of problems with Isreal launching large-scale invasions of Gaza and especially Lebanon. This escalation of the conflict far exceeds Isreal's normal response to attacks, and is a huge setback to whatever remnants of the peace process remained.
I understand Isreal's desire to retrieve its kidnapped soldiers. But these invasions are throwing the fledgling Palestinian state and Lebanon into chaos, and I fear the terrorist factions will capitalize. Progress made toward establishing a viable, stable Palestinian state is being destroyed - it will take years to rebuild the damaged infrastructure. Will it always be this way - one step forward and three steps back? :wall:
I don't really know how Isreal should respond, and I don't want to argue about it - I'm just sick of this entire headache. :shame:
For 1 kidnapped soldier, there's over 60 Palestinians dead.
For 2 kidnapped and 8 dead, there's 55 dead in just a couple of days.
:skull:
Bush already warned not to push the anti-Syrian Government too far. After the US vetoes the UN condemning the Gaza operations, Israel should at least scale back....
Originally Posted by Quietus:
I would like the Security Council to inform Israel that they must pull out of Lebanon - and the United States abstain from the vote to send a message to Israel.....
Bush already warned not to push the anti-Syrian Government too far. After the US vetoes the UN condemning the Gaza operations, Israel should at least scale back....
Originally Posted by :
That would be rather hypocritical of the US, considering the operation in Afghanistan.
I would like the Security Council to inform Israel that they must pull out of Lebanon - and the United States abstain from the vote to send a message to Israel.....
No, this is a time to stand with our ally against islamic terrorism and the nations that support it.
Yes, if Israel could pull out now I think it's point would be proven, if the stay and occupy all of Lebanon then they have definately gone overboard.
Problem I forsee though is now that the situation is escalated even if the Israelis withdraw Hezbollah will undoubtably continue attacking the Israelis in Israel.
Does anyone besides me think this has to do with the Israeli Airforce flying jets over Syria when the moved into Gaza? Seeing as Lebanon is a Syrian puppet and Hezbollah is supplied and trained by the Syrians don't you think that Syria was trying to retaliate against Israel without having to put themselves on the line. Don't think they expected such a heavy handed response though but with the precedent set with the first kidnapping it really shouldn't have been such a surprise.
As Redleg suggested I hope as well the US doesn't use it's veto power to protect the Israelis. Would definately help the US image in the world and let the Israelis know they need to know their limits as well.
And Panzerjaeger, I don't think this would be hypocritical. If the US were to condemn the actions of Israel and vote against Israel it would be hypocritical but by not voting it makes a point of don't push it. No need to push the Syrians and possibly the Egyptians to all out war with Israel again.