Some joyous tidings from Israel

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Originally Posted by rvg

If we start taking the route of historical claims, the Jews still win out since before Israel, British madate, Ottoman Empire, The Mamluks, The Crusaders, The Romans, The Macedonians, The Persians, The Chaldeans and The Assyrians, that land belonged to the Jews. Well, there were Canaanites before that, but they are all dead and cannot claim that land.

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Ooh! I know! What about Bulgars, Magyars (e.g. Hungarians), Polish, and basically every other Slavic and non-Slavic people inhabitting Eastern Europe start declaring that they want their homelands in Russia? Using that argument, they were there before the Russians. Doesn't matter if they left it, right? What about Native Americans? They were there before the United States of America, and since they still exist, and on the grounds of the reason you just gave, they have the historical claim and legitimacy to take large swaths of the United States and their own lands, on basis that they were there before the "Americans".

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Originally Posted by Jolt

Ooh! I know! What about Bulgars, Magyars (e.g. Hungarians), Polish, and basically every other Slavic and non-Slavic people inhabitting Eastern Europe start declaring that they want their homelands in Russia? Using that argument, they were there before the Russians. Doesn't matter if they left it, right? What about Native Americans? They were there before the United States of America, and since they still exist, and on the grounds of the reason you just gave, they have the historical claim and legitimacy to take large swaths of the United States and their own lands, on basis that they were there before the "Americans".

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Exactly.

Castro only had Cuba to lose, which is why he didnt mind. Khruschev had far more to lose, which is why to him the war was unthinkable.

Well Castro also seemed quite ready to die for a cause, what if kruschev had been a young and aggresively minded like fidel, if your going to die the size of your empire seems unimportant, or simply because fidel thought the war was winnable, and some people did....

Im not saying it's likely but you cannot rule it out as a possibility....

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Originally Posted by rvg

Exactly.

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That is the problem. The claims that have been used to legitimize Israel would lead to the creation of a myriad other countries, and since the myriad countries will not be created since the very same governments who accept the reasons for the creation of Israel refuse for others to use those same reasons to create new nations on their own territory, one can only argue that the creation of Israel is an exception, and using the concept of jurisprudence, therefore illegal and illegitimate.

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Originally Posted by Jolt

That is the problem. The claims that have been used to legitimize Israel would lead to the creation of a myriad other countries, and since the myriad countries will not be created since the very same governments who accept the reasons for the creation of Israel refuse for others to use those same reasons to create new nations on their own territory, one can only argue that the creation of Israel is an exception, and using the concept of jurisprudence, therefore illegal and illegitimate.

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No, the problem is that historical claims in general are absurd and irrelevant. As such, the Palestinian claim of owning that land is as worthless as the possible Hungarian claim of the Urals or the Jewish claim. It doesn't matter who was there first or who has lived there for centuries. The only thing that matters is who owns it now. Such is the nature of land grabs throughout the history.

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Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly

Castro only had Cuba to lose, which is why he didnt mind. Khruschev had far more to lose, which is why to him the war was unthinkable.

Well Castro also seemed quite ready to die for a cause, what if kruschev had been a young and aggresively minded like fidel, if your going to die the size of your empire seems unimportant, or simply because fidel thought the war was winnable, and some people did....

Im not saying it's likely but you cannot rule it out as a possibility....

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Rule it out completely? Probably not. Still, if instead of having 200 people capable of doing something fundamentally stupid you instead get 6 people, it's an overall improvement.

I bknow the Israelis vs Palestinians conflict is pretty boring and noone wants to talk about it anymore but since the topic mentions it maybe it is okay if I throw in this link to The Big Picture.

Some may have noticed that I like that site and that is because I personally feel it is rather unbiased, maybe not completely but it usually shows pictures from both sides of a conflict (or just nice pictures of out planet but that isn't relevant here) and if I'm not completely lost in translation the descriptions make no real judgements.
Which kind of fits with my thoughts that both sides have murderers.

Oh and I had been wondering for a while what homemade rockets look like and how exactly they fire them over the border, now I know. :dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by rasoforos

Imagine how offensive Israel's actions are to the people who gave their lives so your ancestors were able to survive to have descendants.

With closed borders, restriction in water electricity etc the palestinian areas are concentration camps. There is no escape from Gaza.

A few days ago a ship carrying aid, doctors and journalists was rammed by the Israeli navy in international waters just because it was heading for Gaza. Israel makes a point about maximizing the suffering of civilians.

The current state of Gaza does draw Holocaust parallels. Denying it is happening draws its own parallels too.

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ignore the fact that it was an unmarked vessel, when only red cross and the like vessels are allowed in. ignore the fact that the ship refused to make radio contact with the israeli navy, ignore the fact that israel cant afford to assume things. for all they know, the vessel had weapons in it.
my former congresswoman, Cynthia McKinney (who is rumored to be an anti-semite after some controversial comments about jews in an election to the state legislature, and has some issues with the capitol hill police) was on that boat. im glad they rammed it.

about drawing parallels to gaza with the holocaust:

im sorry, you really cant. the holocaust was a genocide. whats happening in gaza isnt a genocide- to say that it is one is just wrong. we arent rounding up palestinians and shooting them. there is no ethnic cleansing. to say there is, then i suggest you actually go to israel, tour the land, ask a few israeli-palestinians about the "genocide" there, then come back talk. ive done that already.
i suggest you take an in-depth course on the Holocaust. then maybe you will change your view.

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Originally Posted by Idaho

Israel is an apartheid state founded on ethnic cleansing.

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wrong. how can it be apartheid if there are 3 arab political parties, all of which hold seats in the Knesset? Israel is the only democracy in that area. that automatically, by the definition of apartheid, makes it not an apartheid state.
im going to post a lengthy reply as to why your claim, especially the ethnic cleansing one is false.

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ignore the fact that it was an unmarked vessel, when only red cross and the like vessels are allowed in.

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:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
So to add to your lack of knowledge of Israel you add a lack of knowledge of Maritime law:dizzy2:

im only un-knowledgeable about israel in your opinion. now stop the personal attacks.
according to you- everyone who disagrees with you is at a lower level, you belittle them. that is disgusting.

according to the israeli embassy spokesman, Jonathan Peled-
“We receive all aid and let it enter Gaza properly so that we can make sure that it’s only humanitarian aid and they’re not smuggling people and weapons and explosives into Gaza.”
now had it complied to make contact with the Israeli navy, then things would have been different.

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Originally Posted by hooahguy

wrong. how can it be apartheid if there are 3 arab political parties, all of which hold seats in the Knesset? Israel is the only democracy in that area. that automatically, by the definition of apartheid, makes it not an apartheid state.
im going to post a lengthy reply as to why your claim, especially the ethnic cleansing one is false.

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How come Arabs can't buy property in certain areas? How come they are prejudiced against in daily life? And how come deporting them from Israel is regularly suggested in the Knesset?

So how come the Palestinians can't vote in Israeli elections? And how come Pal land owners had their property conviscated and were denied the right to return after 1948?

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Originally Posted by hooahguy

wrong. how can it be apartheid if there are 3 arab political parties, all of which hold seats in the Knesset? Israel is the only democracy in that area. that automatically, by the definition of apartheid, makes it not an apartheid state.
im going to post a lengthy reply as to why your claim, especially the ethnic cleansing one is false.

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Wether the explusion of 1948 was premeditated by the Israeli leaders of the time, I can't say- but to say that they left completely of their own accord and voluntarily refused citizenship is bogus.

The Palestinians on the occupied west bank have no political rights while yet many of them are completely dependent on work in Israel proper or near the illegal settlements. Many Israeli small business exploit this, while the authorities only fight it by targetting those who cross the borders in order to work for a living. The Arab citizens in Israel are a token minority, and they're only tolerated on the condition that they'll never be a majority of the citizens- as soon as their numbers have grown substantially, expect the reactionary parties in the Knesset to become more popular.

Damnit Husar you could have warned me that that link contains dead cats and dogs.

I like cats and dogs.

we arent rounding up palestinians and shooting them.

So Gaza isnt one one of the most densely populated areas in the world and Palestinians can freely walk in and out of it and into Israel whenever they want...

there is no ethnic cleansing.

No. Israel carpetbombs criminal elements in its non-Palestinian territories as well I suppose.

to say there is, then i suggest you actually go to israel, tour the land, ask a few israeli-palestinians about the "genocide" there, then come back talk.

I wouldn't want to give money to a regime that does things I do not approve. From a historical perspective I would love to when there is peace and a fair solution.

(i.e the Sumerians gain control because they were there first or something :elephant:)

i suggest you take an in-depth course on the Holocaust. then maybe you will change your view.

Do u really think that if I know more about the techniques the Nazis used to murder Jewish people I will gain an appreciation for the techniques Israel used to murder Palestinians? (Or the techniques Palestinians use to kill Israelis?).

Its murder of innocent people, people who have no possibility of escape and are considered second class citizens, people who due to their religious background are uniformly considered dangerous to the state.

My point is that from a people that suffered so much, such brutal actions bring only shame. I dont give a rat's :daisy: whether (and I don't think) they are the same. But they are both atrocities and both have deniers (and that parallel I will draw, I don't want or need to draw more because that is not my point). And I condemn both.

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Originally Posted by rasoforos

I wouldn't want to give money to a regime that does things I do not approve. From a historical perspective I would love to when there is peace and a fair solution.

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then how can you be a fair judge on the situation? the way i see it, you are only hearing this from the media, who isnt always bias-free on either side. the best way to asses a situation is if you go there. why do you think so many people looking for a resolution to conflicts actually go to the place on conflict? sitting at a comfy desk at a computer doesnt cut it.

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Originally Posted by rasoforos

Do u really think that if I know more about the techniques the Nazis used to murder Jewish people I will gain an appreciation for the techniques Israel used to murder Palestinians? (Or the techniques Palestinians use to kill Israelis?).

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no, but it will make you realize that how the holocaust cant compare to the treatment of palestinians.

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Originally Posted by Idaho

How come Arabs can't buy property in certain areas?

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hard to buy land from the government.... in any country. :laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

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How come they are prejudiced against in daily life?

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cant really help you there. the government has no control over peoples thoughts.... i bet down in the south in the US there are racist people agaisnt blacks.

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And how come deporting them from Israel is regularly suggested in the Knesset?

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israels political system has many small, fringe groups, both to the far left and the far right. both kind of parties have seats in the knesset. of course you are going to get that demand. you also get the demand from the far left to withdraw to the 1948 borders. neither of which will happen.

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So how come the Palestinians can't vote in Israeli elections?

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:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
because they arent citizens. israeli Palestinians can vote. the Palestinians in gaza and such cant, becasue they arent israeli.

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And how come Pal land owners had their property conviscated and were denied the right to return after 1948?

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um..... if you had done the research, israel offered to let 100,000 arabs back to their peoperty after the 1948 war. the arabs refused. :help:
ill post more when i have the time on this matter.

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Originally Posted by Fenring

Wether the explusion of 1948 was premeditated by the Israeli leaders of the time, I can't say- but to say that they left completely of their own accord and voluntarily refused citizenship is bogus.

The Palestinians on the occupied west bank have no political rights while yet many of them are completely dependent on work in Israel proper or near the illegal settlements. Many Israeli small business exploit this, while the authorities only fight it by targetting those who cross the borders in order to work for a living. The Arab citizens in Israel are a token minority, and they're only tolerated on the condition that they'll never be a majority of the citizens- as soon as their numbers have grown substantially, expect the reactionary parties in the Knesset to become more popular.

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it wasnt entirely an expulsion. the Arab High Council (i think that was the correct, i forget) in 1948 before israel was created, ordered palestinians to get out, since the invading armies were about to come in. so they left, expecting to return after the victorious arab armies defeated israel. but the arabs lost, so the palestinians never returned. we offered to let back in 100,000 arabs, back to their homes, but the AHC refused the offer.

about the palestinians going over to work and still cant vote-
its like with illigal immigrants here in the US. they come here to work and cant vote- b/c they arent citizens. its sad that buisness owners take advantage, but then again, i think they got thier revenge with last summers bulldozer attacks.

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now stop the personal attacks.

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Personal attacks ?

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im only un-knowledgeable about israel in your opinion.

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in my opinion eh ?
OK lets take a measure of that .
Jerusalem is a pretty core subject when it comes to topics on Palestine , its status has been a real big issue since the creation of the state was first proposed .
Yet you managed to claim not only that it is Israeli but that it is the capital and is recognised as such by everyone apart from a few arabs .
That really suggests very strongly that you are very very unknowledgeable about Israel :yes:
And as for the lack of knowledge of maritime law , well thats easy , the incident was 90 miles off the coast and well out of Israels jurisdiction , Israels actions were so illegal that several countries have issued formal protests to the Knesset from their embassies in Tel-Aviv .

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Originally Posted by hooahguy

according to the israeli embassy spokesman, Jonathan Peled-
“We receive all aid and let it enter Gaza properly so that we can make sure that it’s only humanitarian aid and they’re not smuggling people and weapons and explosives into Gaza.”
now had it complied to make contact with the Israeli navy, then things would have been different.

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Good enough for me, Hail Israel!

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Originally Posted by hooahguy

then how can you be a fair judge on the situation? the way i see it, you are only hearing this from the media, who isnt always bias-free on either side. the best way to asses a situation is if you go there. why do you think so many people looking for a resolution to conflicts actually go to the place on conflict? sitting at a comfy desk at a computer doesnt cut it.

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Are you suggesting that unless one goes there they cannot have an opinion? This is not something I can comply with because...

...I haven't been to planet Venus either but I trust it is a infernal hellhole.

Sure it is good to have a first hand look but we are entitled to our opinions regardless thank you very much. You are probably not in Gaza at the moment either :)

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Originally Posted by rvg

No, the problem is that historical claims in general are absurd and irrelevant.

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See how you are right? Problem is that by the time Israel was supposed to be formed, there was already a thing called International Law. And that law repeats what you have just said, then how come Israel was still created?

Bottom-line: If Israel hadn't been created, these wars wouldn't exist and these people wouldn't have been killed.

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Originally Posted by rasoforos

Are you suggesting that unless one goes there they cannot have an opinion? This is not something I can comply with because...

...I haven't been to planet Venus either but I trust it is a infernal hellhole.

Sure it is good to have a first hand look but we are entitled to our opinions regardless thank you very much. You are probably not in Gaza at the moment either :)

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You don't get it, rasoforos, unless you've been there, you don't have a right to an opinion. All Hail Israel!

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then how can you be a fair judge on the situation? the way i see it, you are only hearing this from the media, who isnt always bias-free on either side.

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That's funny coming from you.

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the best way to asses a situation is if you go there.

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Ok, and?

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why do you think so many people looking for a resolution to conflicts actually go to the place on conflict?

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So they can speak directly to the belligerents in question.

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sitting at a comfy desk at a computer doesnt cut it.

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You're as much guilty of this as anyone else here. Just because you've been to the country doesn't mean you're the all knowing expert of it's affairs and policies.

If a university professor who studies extensively in Israeli-Arab relations does not have the chance to go to the country, is he not entitled to his opinion?

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Originally Posted by SwedishFish

If a university professor who studies extensively in Israeli-Arab relations does not have the chance to go to the country, is he not entitled to his opinion?

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How preposterous! Of course not! And neither is anyone entitled to talk about space or the Moon or Mars as they have never been there!

A friend of mine confidently gave her assessment of Saudi Arabia as a very nice country to live in and work in, based on the fact she had lived over there... for 2 years, aged 2 to 4.

How is setting foot in an area, taking a few snaps and then disappearing supposed to give you knowledge of the whole situation? How long does someone have to be in an area to have sufficient knowledge, who do they have to talk to, how many, what do they have to see?

Personally I think that the cursory information that one gets from a visit is counter productive as they get a very biased view on the situation.

~:smoking:

Brilliant, Isreal makes another martyr. Not to mention that his status as a military target is shaky at best. Is is me, or is Israel's kill all the leaders stragtegy going to backfire?

Have they tried a single strategy that hasn't backfired, anyway ? I mean, back in the day they used to support Hamas to undermine the PLO...

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/webl...ianChildAbuse/


Remember kids, hate is counter productive

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/webl...ianChildAbuse/


Remember kids, hate is counter productive

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Indeed? Being one sided though is also rather questionable

http://www.childsoldiersglobalreport.org/content/israel


Notable quotes:

Israeli settlers

Israeli children living in settlements were frequently involved in violent confrontations with Palestinian neighbours and, on occasion, international observers. In Hebron, observers reported the systematic use of youngsters under 12 to carry out acts of violence and vandalism against Palestinians and their property.44 Israel’s police commander in the Hebron region said, “We have a major problem here. They [the settlers] understand our weak point – and they use children under the age of criminal responsibility, under the age of twelve. They do this intentionally. They [the children] are the tactical wing, even the strategic wing, of the adults.”45 The Israeli NGO Yesh Din found that of 150 cases of complaints of settler violence opened in 2005 and closed by November that year, 50 involved children under the age of criminal responsibility, all from the Hebron area.46 One adult victim from the Tel Rumeida area of Hebron reported that “settler children attack us, with the parents encouraging them and standing next to them”.47 A number of videos of child settler violence were posted on the Internet in 2006–7.48 Attacks by groups of older Israeli children against Palestinians in the area were reported on a relatively frequent basis.49

In 2007 three incidents were documented where Palestinian children were used as human shields by the IDF in and around Nablus, two years after an Israeli Supreme Court ruling banned this practice.24 In one case, an 11-year-old girl was sent into a derelict building ahead of IDF soldiers investigating the source of shooting.25 In another case, a 15-year-old boy was told to walk ahead of soldiers searching his family home, the soldiers firing five or six shots.26


And of course you can find such images everywhere:

https://img383.imageshack.us/img383/...ael2qx9.th.jpg

https://img76.imageshack.us/img76/5665/israel1ih7.jpg

Arent they cute?