Pike & Musket TW ( XVI-XVII mod) in the RTW

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Originally Posted by cegorach1

BTW Maybe you could inform me about the method, I might be interested in this in some time ( when I will buy a PC here).

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Ok, only that the method is based on drawing skills.

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Originally Posted by cegorach1

If you want the 1.0 release ask Swordmaster for the link.

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So I did, and I like it. Still the mod evidently lacks new graphics, I felt an impulse to change this and that ~;) . Also as I started the high period campaign as Poland-Lithuania and learned Jan Zamoyski is a Pikemen unit in Prussia, I was a bit bitter that he can't actually ride a horse :charge: :dizzy2: , but well...

Anyway I have a certain idea for P&M RTW version:

I really think we now should close the faction setup for basic RTW release. Last time we were talking about this, we didn't decide about all the factions and there were still some unclear aspects.

01.-HRE - romans brutii
02.-Spain - romans julii
03.-Electoral States - romans scipii
04.-Pope - romans senate
05.-Russia - greek cities
06.-Zaporozhyan Cossacks - seleucids
07.-Hungary - thrace
08.-Poland-Lithuania - macedon
09.-Sweden - spain
10.-Denmark - scythia
11.-Scotland - britons
12.-England - gauls
13.-United Netherlands - dacia
14.-Brandenburg - germans
15.-Turkey - armenia
16.-Crimean Tatars - parthia
17.-Georgia - pontus
18.-Venice - carthage
19.-France - numidia
20.-Saxony - egypt
20.-Portugal
20.-Persia


As you can see above, now we have 3 choices for a poll, bacause I think we should have a poll in this case to decide. Any other ideas for factions? Remember it starts 1480. As for the already accepted factions, two look akward to me in that time setting, but seems that for the sake of the big picture we have to have them from the very start; United Netherlands, Zaporozhyan Cossacks. I would hope to open that poll soon.

Regards
EC

[QUOTE=Eastside Character]Ok, only that the method is based on drawing skills.

>>>> Well... that is bad :embarassed:



So I did, and I like it. Still the mod evidently lacks new graphics, I felt an impulse to change this and that ~;) . Also as I started the high period campaign as Poland-Lithuania and learned Jan Zamoyski is a Pikemen unit in Prussia, I was a bit bitter that he can't actually ride a

>>>>>> He is leading Scottish Pikemen, if I remember correctly - I thought it is rather good - you know Scots from Zamosc ~:cheers:
But it is possible to give him something different by changing the unit in the startpos.txt.
Actually I had to change few things to make e.g. Cromwell led his Ironsides in late and similar ( Jarema is leading Husaria ~D ).
It is only 1.0 so it will be possible to change few ( or more) things here and there.

About graphics - there are some 'spare' entries in the Textures/Men BIFs e.g. Toplesloon etc, but generally it should be remembered that I had to place certain files in Custom directories to allow using additional factions and it should stay this way.

If you want to we could discuss what changes are the most necessary ones.

When I will 'be back' ( with a PC capable of running RTW) I will also correct whatever is necessary for a future patch for the MTW release, but concentrate my efforts in preparing RTW release - at least for custom/multiplayer mode ( with me as one of the first players ~D ).



Anyway I have a certain idea for P&M RTW version:

I really think we now should close the faction setup for basic RTW release. Last time we were talking about this, we didn't decide about all the factions and there were still some unclear aspects.

01.-HRE - romans brutii
02.-Spain - romans julii
03.-Electoral States - romans scipii
04.-Pope - romans senate
05.-Russia - greek cities
06.-Zaporozhyan Cossacks - seleucids
07.-Hungary - thrace
08.-Poland-Lithuania - macedon
09.-Sweden - spain
10.-Denmark - scythia
11.-Scotland - britons
12.-England - gauls
13.-United Netherlands - dacia
14.-Brandenburg - germans
15.-Turkey - armenia
16.-Crimean Tatars - parthia
17.-Georgia - pontus
18.-Venice - carthage
19.-France - numidia
20.-Saxony - egypt
20.-Portugal
20.-Persia



>>>> I'd like to have Persia in the 'basic' release and Portugal and Saxony in patched versions.

Persia is the best out of those three for me as well, but I'm sure there are also other people who would go for Portugal (just take Count Dementhor, our webmaster), or Saxony. I was thinking the whole team/community is like too large to disregard and some issues should rather be collective decisions.

I forgot about Genoa, it's an extremely valid faction for the whole P&M timeframe, and a one that was important too. It's really a pity we are stuck with 20 factions. :furious3: Makes me wanna :furious3:

Regards
EC

I was thinking the whole team/community is like too large to disregard and some issues should rather be collective decisions.

Of course I agree. ~:cheers:

How about removing the Tatars and the Cossacks and putting in Persia and Portugal. The Tatars and Cossacks are way too small to stand against Poland Russia, Georgia and the Ottomans that share more-less the same area. And in the RTW engine, it is probably easier to impelement the mercenary character of the cossacks.

NO :charge:

Both factions are too uniqe to be removed !! :duel:

They both aren't really more unique than Ireland or Berbers for that instance. It's all a matter of likes and dislikes.

I think you are here simply biased towards Cossacks as a Pole. For a Pole Cossacks seem important, but when you look at the big picture the situation changes. Tatars technicly should be some kind of Turkish vasal. Generally Tatars and Cossacks are enemies to one another and removing one means removing the other. Same if you want one of them to stay, the other stays as well. Only that not necessarliy as a faction.

All in all I'm not gonna be arguing about leaving Cossacks out, because I will crush them quickly anyway, hehe. ~;) The issue here is more that circa 1480 THERE WERE NO COSSACKS! And so not no Zaporozhyan Cossacks too. The fact they have never been, by any means, a faction, is a different story. I just find it ... strange that you Cegorach, as a Pole, that you are so strongly for the Cossacks. ~:eek: I mean I really find it weird. ~:confused: My ancestors would turn up in their graves if I here supported that idea. Merely rebels. Remember Jarema's words when Cossack 'diplomats' came in the name of Khmelnystky: "Buntownik, nie Hetman!*" And those words, I believe, properly describe what the Zaporozhyans were c. 1648. Otherwise they would be soldiers in the armies of the Commonwealth, Russia, Turkey, or just some bandits.

I think that OiM mod has all about Cossacks you would like to have, but then it's more localised and actually centered around the Commonwealth and neighboring countries. And that's how I think it should be - Cossacks as a faction in the expansion, not the big scale mod.

And as said before, I'm not very much concerned if Cossacks will or not be a faction, they will be rebels to me anyway and so I will treat them. :charge:

As for the Tatars, hmm, myself being 1/8 Khazan Libkanum Tatarlar, I would like to see them as a faction that they were, although a Turkish vasal. But if them being vasals means its a bye bye, then I would also get rid of Cossacks and put there Persia and Genoa. Portugal is nice but it was united with Spain after all. Splitting these two, is I think like splitting Poland and Lithuania. It would look as much akward, tho Lithuania was an independent country in its own rights until 1569 but ruled by the same guys that ruled Poland. Making them separate makes no sense, the same I think applies to Portugal and Spain. The bonds were too strong to separate them.

* - means: "A rebel not a Hetman!"

Regards
EC

OK have a better solution:

Let's do it this way - in a basic version ( 1480+) there will be no Cossacks, but in later ( patched, around 1572+) they would replace Georgia ( in pieces at that time and not so important if we have Persia).

The Tatars however have to be there, simply because they were an important factor in eastern european balance of forces between Russia, Poland, Sweden and THEM. Besides the Ottomans were more concerned with the conquest of Hungary and Austria not with Poland or Ukraine ( up to 1650).

This way we would have a good selection of factions, armies in a balanced mod it should be, besides we could use OiM cossack units in more reasonable way.

So what do you think about it ?

It is a better solution, but I still think that the Tatars dont really add to gameplay. They will have only 1 or 2 provinces, and most of their units are going to ebe Ottoman anyway. Besides, we can´t make them "vassals" of the Ottoman empire which means they will have to stand on their own and will probably be crushed by the Ottomans themselves.

IMHO the Tatars as a faction should be out. Their lands should be given to a rebel faction, and their units made recruitable in the area for the Ottomans and maybe other factions in the area.

MAybe not the best solution, but we have plenty of Eastern factions already.

On the other hand, which factions do we have in N. Africa? Specially which factions do we have strong enough to defy Spain in the Western Mediterranean? IMHO the Portuguese should be a faction as they moved huge amounts of money, and had one of the most advanced navies of the era.

I don't know if any of you visited Citadel forum lately but right now we have a poll going on about the Senate faction. We have an idea that the Diet should be the Senate faction, with minions being the HAbsburgs, Saxony and Bavaria, and not including the Pope at all. We think this reflects the period better, and the Diet is much more like teh Senate than the Pope. However, no Pope in the game may seem strange to a lot of people, including myself even though I was one of the originators of the idea.
I was wondering what you think about that, seeing how you still have the Pope in your faction list.

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Originally Posted by Yggdrasill

I don't know if any of you visited Citadel forum lately but right now we have a poll going on about the Senate faction. We have an idea that the Diet should be the Senate faction, with minions being the HAbsburgs, Saxony and Bavaria, and not including the Pope at all. We think this reflects the period better, and the Diet is much more like teh Senate than the Pope. However, no Pope in the game may seem strange to a lot of people, including myself even though I was one of the originators of the idea.
I was wondering what you think about that, seeing how you still have the Pope in your faction list.

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Another reason to keep the Pope is to limit the expansion of superpowers like Spain and the HRE in Italy and also to spice up the italian map a little. The faction list we have now is not yet definitive though.

Well we have Venice Milan and Naples, so three Italian factions already, and pope is not really needed 'to spice things up' or stop the Spanish. We have an entirely different strategic situation, with Spain having to deal with Granada first, then the Aragon (sadly only a rebel faction) and the Portugese (also only rebels) before looking beyond their peninsula

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Originally Posted by SwordsMaster

most of their units are going to ebe Ottoman anyway.

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Not true. Tatar army was differetn from any other in Europe at that time, and not like any other. The fact you see no difference between Tatar and Ottoman horse archers, doesnt make them be the same. Just the same way there are loads of Pikemen units in mod.

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Besides, we can´t make them "vassals" of the Ottoman empire which means they will have to stand on their own and will probably be crushed by the Ottomans themselves.

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We cannot make them vassals, but can make them allies, weaker allies of a powerfull Ottoman Empire. Should they engage in hostilities with eachother, that would be just as it happened a couple of times when Karachi Beis wanted to seize power and become fully independent from Sultan by electing a new Khan themselves.

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IMHO the Tatars as a faction should be out. Their lands should be given to a rebel faction, and their units made recruitable in the area for the Ottomans and maybe other factions in the area.

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In case they would be out their lands would have to be Ottoman, to make it reasonable. But after a deep consideration I would after all support the idea of having Tatars in game. I mean if considering we are including factions like Brandenburg, which was weaker than Crimean Khanate.

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MAybe not the best solution, but we have plenty of Eastern factions already.

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Then count Western factions and compare the numbers.

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On the other hand, which factions do we have in N. Africa? Specially which factions do we have strong enough to defy Spain in the Western Mediterranean? IMHO the Portuguese should be a faction as they moved huge amounts of money, and had one of the most advanced navies of the era.

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Yes, the Portugese were afluent and had stong navy, and I agree it would be very nice to have them as a permanent Spanish ally, but on the other hand if you look at their engagement in purely European affairs, they dont count much. They are important in context of new colonies, America, and naval expansion worldwide, but not in Europe. P&M however, deals pretty much with European warfare and the fact there is part of Africa on the map and that there is a part of Asia, is only because we have to have the real context. Given the Spanish-Portugese royal alliance, I think the reasons for splitting what was together, are not very much convincing to me.

Again, I can bring back example of Polish-Lithuanian state or rather two states which were separate until 1569, and still why dont we make Lithuania in game? Lithuania was big and stong and her Grand Dukes were Kings of Poland and sometimes of Hungary and Bohemia too.

You see, we can twist is all up even more. The question is does it make sense for the big picture. I think the answer is 'no'.

Regards
EC

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Yes, the Portugese were afluent and had stong navy, and I agree it would be very nice to have them as a permanent Spanish ally, but on the other hand if you look at their engagement in purely European affairs, they dont count much. They are important in context of new colonies, America, and naval expansion worldwide, but not in Europe. P&M however, deals pretty much with European warfare and the fact there is part of Africa on the map and that there is a part of Asia, is only because we have to have the real context. Given the Spanish-Portugese royal alliance, I think the reasons for splitting what was together, are not very much convincing to me.

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Well, but the spanish-portuguese merged crown was only due to the defeat and death of the portuguese king Sebastian in the battle of Alcazarquivir (N.Africa), in 1578, which is 135 years into the Mod´s timeframe. If we are not including the Cossacks because they were non-existant in 1453, then we should definitely include Portugal.

Besides, I would much rather have cossacks and portuguese in the mod than tatars and persians.

Of course that is only my opinion. It does make more sense to have Persia instead of Cossacks though.

Portuguese - we have no place for them I believe, Tatars were MORE important when it comes to the balance of forces and are more interesting to play I believe ( unusual army).

Persia is generally useful to balance the huge strenght of the Ottomans, besides I believe that the idea of the patch is the best solution to have the Cossacks in the game anyway ~D

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Originally Posted by cegorach1

Portuguese - we have no place for them I believe, Tatars were MORE important when it comes to the balance of forces and are more interesting to play I believe ( unusual army).

Persia is generally useful to balance the huge strenght of the Ottomans, besides I believe that the idea of the patch is the best solution to have the Cossacks in the game anyway ~D

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I agree. Prehaps I'm biased as I have some Tatar blood in my vains, but I think SM is biased as well. It seems we cannot come to a campromise here. I said what I think, and I'm puzzled, so my suggestion would be either to have a poll for Tatars/Portugal/Genoa and what not, so for that one slot. Or just make a final statement Ceg and lets have what it is you want. I fear Tatars may not win the poll tho... it would be best (I think) for some objective history experts to wage the Tatars and Portugal and say whats to stay. Because me, you Ceg, and you SM, we arent really trully objective here I believe. Kinda hard thing here to settle. :dizzy2:

I take my askerler and ride into the steppes to avoid this clash. :charge: :charge: :charge:

As always,

Regards
EC

Prehaps we need not to argue at all, (or at least not about kicking out Tatars and inserting Portugal instead) look here:

01.-HRE - romans brutii
02.-Spain - romans julii
03.-Electoral States - romans scipii
04.-Pope - romans senate
05.-Russia - greek cities
06.-FREE SLOT - seleucids / earlier - Zaporozhyan Cossacks
07.-Hungary - thrace
08.-Poland-Lithuania - macedon
09.-Sweden - spain
10.-Denmark - scythia
11.-Scotland - britons
12.-England - gauls
13.-United Netherlands - dacia
14.-Brandenburg - germans
15.-Turkey - armenia
16.-Crimean Tatars - parthia
17.-Georgia - pontus
18.-Venice - carthage
19.-France - numidia
20.-Persia - egypt

Regards
EC

LOL, how come we didnt know about that spot earlier? ~D
About our discussion, I dont think I´m biased. I was born in Zaporozhye from a family that stretched from the Romanovs, polish descendants and a german from Danzig, I lived 10 years in Spain and study my degree in Ireland.

Hardly what you could call biased....

Anyway, that was just my opinion, but we could ask, for example Adrian II , as he appears to have a solid knowledge of history and has showed interest in this mod.

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Originally Posted by SwordsMaster

LOL, how come we didnt know about that spot earlier? ~D
About our discussion, I dont think I´m biased. I was born in Zaporozhye from a family that stretched from the Romanovs, polish descendants and a german from Danzig, I lived 10 years in Spain and study my degree in Ireland.

Hardly what you could call biased....

Anyway, that was just my opinion, but we could ask, for example Adrian II , as he appears to have a solid knowledge of history and has showed interest in this mod.

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Sorry man, I thought you was a hispanic, or spanish to be more precise. AnywayI am still biased towards Tatars, but as turned out we don't need to get rid of them them.

Our empty slot can be then Portugal, but also Genoa or Saxony. As for Portugal what I can say after your explanation of her status, I think it would be a pretty strong candidate. Do you think it would be possible to have Portugal and Genoa as one faction? Just an idea. And yeah, Adrian II would be of help here I think.

Regards
EC

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Sorry man, I thought you was a hispanic, or spanish to be more precise. AnywayI am still biased towards Tatars, but as turned out we don't need to get rid of them them.

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No problem, I´m some fraction spanish too. My grandfather was spanish.

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Do you think it would be possible to have Portugal and Genoa as one faction?

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Hardly. We have a mediterranean trading empire though, Venice. See, for me the main reason to pick Portugal, is the AI wont have an aggressive strategy if we just leave it rebel. There will just be lots of small armies sitting everywhere. They probably wont even try to expand or anything and will be easily swallowed by bigger "real" factions.

Other than that, Portugal could be a rebel faction, as they technically they had less influence in european politics than Genoa. The thing is, we dont want a too strong Genoa to overthrow France or HRE.

Basically our list of possible factions is:

Cossacks
Genoa
Portugal.

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Originally Posted by SwordsMaster

Basically our list of possible factions is:

Cossacks
Genoa
Portugal.

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Why Cossacks again? I mean we previously agreed to remove them mostly because they are not for the campaign starting in 1480 AD, but should be included in later campaign. That later campaign wouldnt take much time provided we have our first campaign done. Still kinda far from here...

Anyway I think Genoa and Portugal are fine options, but there were more factions circa 1480, like: Saxony (or some other German state like Switzerland or Bavaria), Wallachia or last but not least some Berber kingdom (Fez or sth). I think we should have a poll. The situation is clear that we have one slot empty, and potentially some five choices or so:
Portugal
Genoa
Switzerland
Berbers
Saxony

This is just an idea. I think you would much rather have Portugal than this poll, but is it possible Portugal gets most votes. I think it is likely. To spice thing up I think we can make this not just some poll, but a contest poll where we make a limit that eg. the faction which gets 11 votes first, that faction wins. Or something. I'm just trying to be creative. ~;)

I would probably vote for Genoa.

Regards
EC

Hmm, yes, Fez is also a godd option. But I've tried but there is just no info available on the web, or I couldnt find it... I might PM Adrian to see if he's got some....

As of adding more germans, well, yeahm but they dont add to variety either. They will all have the same units...

I would vote for Portugal or Switzerland ( was really powerful at that time) :charge:

Please start the poll :bow:

Hey guys,

Im back! What's new?

I'll have more time to help you again on this mod in the next weeks.

I really don't have much to say now.

I've got to update the site...

Cya... ~:cheers:

I thought about animal units in the RTW, do we need any ?

Ronin from OiM team suggested once a herd of bulls for Cossacks faction ~D

What do you think ?

Second - the elephants - maybe the Persians could get them as an exclusive and VERY rare unit ?


Finally - I don't think we will be able to release anything untill late 2006 i.e. after THE BARBARIAN Invasion and only some kind of demo version (custom and multiplayer) will be useful before this time.

Personally I want a well prepared and complete release.

For this reason I started working with renewed zeal and fanatism, now RTW edition will be no. 1 !! ~;)

I believe you will see some effects soon - especially from OiM team ~;)

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Originally Posted by cegorach1

I thought about animal units in the RTW, do we need any ?

Ronin from OiM team suggested once a herd of bulls for Cossacks faction

What do you think ?

Second - the elephants - maybe the Persians could get them as an exclusive and VERY rare unit ?

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I dont know much about animal units in that period. I think horses and camels were mostly used. I dont think Persia should have elephants in that period, but I'm not entirely sure here.

Bulls for Cossacks sound for me pretty much in the same way as Flying Carpets for Turks. Unrealistic, fun but unrealistic.

Generally, I think we should more care about the regular units for now, and leave all the strange units for later when we have the most important units done.

I believe we could work out a core of beta campaign using rtw units as placeholders for now. It would move forward modding campaign mechanisms and AI behavior. Placeholder units would have proper stats and only look wrong. Good for testing, and theres like hundrets of tests ahead of us guys.


Sincerely
EC

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Bulls for Cossacks sound for me pretty much in the same way as Flying Carpets for Turks. Unrealistic, fun but unrealistic.

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You might me on to something! Can we have flying carpet arquebusiers? Please can we? can we? ~D

I know elephants were used up until the XIX cent by some eastern nations, mostly to pull things around and as a command point on a battlefield, but I dont think their use was widely spread...

Actually Cossacks did use bulls on occasion. Sometimes not necessarilly on purpose, but mainly they were a good way of causing confusion in the enemy lines.

In Taras Bulba there is a part where their bulls (or cattle or oxen, I can't remember what exactly) are made to stampede but are driven into the Polish lines. Even though Taras Bulba is fiction, it is a very good source for Cossack life/combat/strategy/idealogy.

Placeholder units would have proper stats and only look wrong. Good for testing, and theres like hundrets of tests ahead of us guys.


Great idea EC.

I will start doing this as soon as possible.

We will need to have everything in 1 place and start implementing our extensive data.
Of course I want to do this - I should be ready at the end of the month. ~:cheers:

Another thing, don't worry about units so much, we really have support of OiM team - check their beautiful units in the Forge ~:)