Has anyone been to totalwar.com recently

It is perfectly clear that CA has no intention of participating in a solution to the problem of the save/reload bug. It is a bug; calling it a feature is just a case of convenient redefinition when reality doesn't suit. There is no point in continuing any "conversation" with CA at this point since they will not even concede the problem exists.

I believe we should now take our case to SEGA and request their intervention on this issue. If customer service at SEGA can be persuaded to run the simple test of lifting the FOW and saving/reloading after each turn, it would most likely be enough to convince any reasonable person the bug is there. We can then hope to leverage this recognition into a hot fix which will be done at SEGA's demand, not CA's whim. Even if CA staff are completely unavailable or unable to fix the problem, SEGA could commission a SWAT team to come in and solve the problem. I've seen this done before in software development when a team either fell apart, or were unable to solve a critical problem in the time alloted.

If SEGA fails to act after being given a fair chance to respond, then I think it would be foolish for any of us to pay good money for an expansion or future title from CA, knowing this is the kind of support it will get. Other software companies found out the hard way that you cannot behave like this and keep selling titles. Once the public trust is lost, you're done for.

AFAIK CA has defined a bug as something that causes CTD. Based on that definition, the 'load/save feature' is not a bug! It seriously detracts from or abolishes any gameplay, but it's not a bug.

EDIT after seeing last two posts:

Maybe SEGA will be able to help. Wouldnt that be a ***** for those that believed that SEGA ownership would be the end of the world.

So, where's a better place to start? SEGA or gaming mags?

1) I'd like to see everyone who believes this needs to be addressed to have an identifiable smiley in their sig (one needs to be made). That will show the level of public opinion on this issue without the percieved abuse (from all sides). As was pointed out, one of the problems with this question is that it can be hard to sort out whining from legitimate complaint over this issue. If every post on this site (and the other TW sites with sigs) demonstrated our dissatisfaction it would send a clear message to CA and SEGA (I suspect) especially if the 'more respected members' also took part.

2) Those who have 'the ear of' someone with some 'gravitas' should put a word in that there is a problem in paradise.

I don't want to sound pessimistic but I think you're fooling yourself if you think CA is concerned with people contacting PC magazines or Sega...
But let's face it, the number of people visiting these boards are all core fans of strategy games and probably a sizable sample of CA's customers; so it's easy enough for all of us not to buy any CA game or extension until they fix AI problems. Maybe that will give CA the insentive to work on a fix.
I for one will not buy anymore CA software until I see a change of attitude regarding patches...
Maybe we should start a thread and get everybody who's commited not to purchase there software anymore to post into it...

elmar, thank you for your post. probably the most level headed contribution here so far (admitting that my own posts haven't always been so even tempered)

Howdy Kraxis. I wondered where you had gotten to. :) I can't play RTW since I sold my game back to EB Games during the first week of its release and have never considered trying it again, post-patch. I knew when I posted, there would not be a response from EITHER side. Some appear to be relishing in their own self-righteousness and an "I'm right, you're wrong" attitude.

Tai4J: Thanks. I have been thru it all before, with each TW game and have a unique perspective of both sides of this arguement. I DO understand your dissappointment, and realize some of the posts here are out of frustration. I was guilty of the same during the first week of RTW. Should have seen my rant in the private .com forums before I resigned there. :) We ALL have our moments.

CA has stated there will not be another patch. I heard it over at the .com in both the public and moderator/admin forums several times. History also proves this to be the case. History also proves, that complaining on the forums, has no effect and the only reason CA responds to anyone is to try and calm down the number of complaints. Unfortunately, MikeB (Fishpants) has always had the major habit of sticking his foot in his mouth, and trying (badly) to use humor in proving how unwise, and unknowing a complaining patron is. It is his way of striking back at those who complain about the lack of communication (not sure what his age is, but that may explain some of it). CA has always felt communication with the community was/is a hassle.

As for TorquemadaUK: He should not have been treated as badly as everyone treated him here.

As for me: TheShogun, MikeB, Eradosan, and a few others at the .com, at first, asked me to come back and admin. I refused at that time, but as I saw the mods being mistreated, I offered to come back in a limited capacity. However, I am an unknown. Publicly criticizing RTW here and at the .net (never at the official .com forum), pointing out MikeB's verbal foibles here at the .org, and chasitizing Erado and gang when they decided to vent their frustrations/anger over at the .net forums, has made me an unwelcome, but "put-up" with patron of the .com. I abide by the rules, will always defend the .com mod staff (since they are in the same boat as the rest of the community as far as knowing any information) and will always state my likes/dislikes concerning the TW series, no matter who may dislike it ( I paid $50 for the priviledge of doing so.

To me: RTW is the worst game of the series )for the MP community). I cannot say what it is for the SP game since I have never played SP, for any of the series thus far.

RTW will not be patched, or otherwise changed in any manner until the expansion. Even then, the game will not be changed much, except for a few lingering connection problems and/or pet issues with CA.

Complaining here will have the same effect as it always has. None. CA may be listening, but they are not hearing for many reasons. The number 1 reason is: Complaints about RTW here and at the other forums, may be viewed from the perspective of a customer publicly complaining about how YOU have made a mistake at work, how YOU refuse to acknowledge it, how YOU have belittled everyone who has complained, and how YOU do not know what you are doing. You would not like this, would feel that your efforts were not appreciated, would withdraw from any communication with this customer and/or would knowingly communicate in an arrogant manner. Plus you know, these complaints, may actually be heard by your boss and he might question your ability to work with the public, thus, your job performance and future income will be effected.

The best way to register your dissappointment with the series would be to no longer play the game, and wait for the TW series to get back on track with a game more suitable to your tastes. That is what I have done. RTW + any expansions will not be purchased/played by myself. I am waiting on a TW game which offers a better MP experience. Until that time, I will not purchase any future TW games, which do not meet that criteria. You guys should do the same. Unfortunately, many say they will: most do not. The business world knows how fickle the consumer is, and how willing they are to pay for something new in the hope of a better product.

Quote from CA's official statement about AI decisions after loading a game:

"The decision was made that this was a reasonable and sensible thing for the AI to do as well: the loading of a game seemed like a good point to get the AI to sit back and go "hmmm... what's happening?... maybe those guys should be doing something more useful..."

So, what is the AI doing when you don't save and reload? Isn't it sitting back and assessing the situation everytime the player hits end turn? The strategic situation on a reload hasn't changed since the savegame was created. Why did the AI change it's decision? What data is missing that caused the AI to make a different decision?

Thanks for the great post Elmar (Am i right to assume you are the same Elmar at .com). Really enjoyed reading both your posts, very insightful.

I have always been a fan of Tarrak (Kraxis) at the .com forums since the MTW days. He made so many great and useful posts in the MTW forums and none of the Killemall brand of policing (to be fair, no one but Killemall does his kind of moderating). I just wish the senior patrons which end up as mods/admins also try to make more useful and helpful posts rather then just policing the forums as that would also result in greater appreciation for their work and the thought of them as 'CA reps simply there to extent CA's agenda' in Patrons minds will be eased to a great degree (ofcourse I know its hard given the time limitations that they are faced with).

It is unfortunate what you (Elmar) say though regarding CA's behaviour as it is all too true when we observe the recent attitude and posts made by CA here at the .org and at the .com.

I have been a great fan of the series, mainly the SP campaign. The only MP experience i have had was with MTW on LAN with my brother. Though I have still a lot of respect for CA for their work, inventing a completely new genre in the gaming industry etc., but higher we raise our idols, the more disappointed we all are when these idols fall from grace in such a shameful fashion.

I think we should let MikeB off the hook regarding the RTR statement at .com. Its water under the bridge, and Mike, please you should know by now (if you are 25+) that sometimes its best not to try and defend some (suspect) statements and let them go as you will only make things worse for you.

What we would appreciate from Mike is some more forthcoming info/debate on the issue, which he can safely provide us without jeopardizing his job ofcourse (please guys understand his position and not be selfish, MikeB is not CA, just a fallible human like us all).

:help: Is this a good icon to show our knowledge and discontent on the handeling of the Loadgame issue (as a sign of silent protest as mentioned by some of the patrons) (unless someone comes up with the same icon with 'helpless' written on it).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Browning

Because you remain deaf to such simple questions, writing instead pages on how we misappreciate and misuse your product, you are loosing our respect very rapidly, sir.

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Browning, trust me when I say the ice is cracking beneath your feet with this accusation. You speak for yourself but not me and certainly not the org at large. The man is not deaf. He must necessarily remain mute concerning certain topics. There is a vast difference.

Do be warned, people, before things get too out of hand. I will brook no slander. The devs are guests here like anyone else and will receive the very same respect as any other patron. It would be a mistake for anyone to regard the appearance of any CA or Sega representative as “open season” for unruly venting. These gentlemen owe us nothing. They come here because they want to just like us.

Captain Fishpants represents CA and has said what he can about patches. Belaboring the point is not useful regardless of how anyone feels.

Those who want the org to avoid closed threads and apparent censorship must behave with dignity and decorum. Speak your minds but remain polite. Never be rude. Set passions aside. To quote Lincoln, let us conduct the forum “With charity toward all and malice toward none”.

Magnificent posting, as always, ElmarkOFear-sama. It was a pleasure to read it.

For the new faces around here, I will not introduce myself extensively, nor do I have as nearly as a formidable background as the greatest of the Org and TW, but I traveled my share of this path. I was with TW since the beginnings With Shogun but, unlike Elmo, I was SP player primarily, because of the bad modem connections and inability to play online. I lurked Org for ages, it seems, registered ones, dropped my account and registered anew.

I joined the Org actively when it was at its peak; Medieval reigned supreme, Viking appeared, the forums were full of interesting topics and satisfied fans that were sharing their joy and love for TW.

Then Rome was announced, first screenshots became available, sky was the limit. We discussed it from dawn to dusk, and then the first jitters appeared. The lack of historical authentic units and settings troubled some players who began complaining loudly, and it only got worse and worse. Before we knew, Org was divided into two factions, the “historicals” and “ignorants”. I chose the latter, even though I love history and have hundreds of books on historical topics, and have read thousands more, because I understood that out of gameplay reasons, one had to sacrifice a thing or two down the line. One may agree or not, question of priorities; I chose gameplay over the historical accuracy and the “Bullwarrior” agenda. Sadly, I even lost one of my best friends here at the Org because he represented the opposite position and got so involved into this task that he developed a nasty habit of flaming everyone with opposite opinion.

I digress. Well, I stood with CA and supported them without reserve; I trusted them. My intention was to engage into MP world of Rome, something I missed with previous two titles. There was no chance Rome wouldn’t be the king of them all.

Rome fell. It is still a mystery to me how such game, with thousands of 3D units and so many new features couldn’t match up, in my eyes at least, with Medieval or Shogun. The old guard renounced the game, they hated it in matter a fact. I have lost most of my faith, but I still had hope. For a while.

Now, I have no more hope for Rome. The old honorable players are gone, the scene isn’t what I expected it to be, not to mention the MP part of the game that has so much glitches... I won’t detail the reasons why the game is …well, not satisfactory, let us say, they’ve been brought up over and over again. I played Medieval and Shogun for hours and hours, months and years; I played Rome for two-three weeks and couldn’t bring myself to play it any more. I didn’t sell it, it is still on my computer installed, but I haven’t played it for millennia…

Now? I don’t hate nor do I flame CA and respectable members of their staff. I am just gravely disappointed. I could write a book instead of these few chapters, my discussions with honorable members of these boards on the Rome and possibilities it could have had, like naval combat we discussed into almost the last detail on these boards, our time of waiting and our great expectations, our eventual downfall and spreading of discontent…

I am only sad. Sad to know that Rome isn’t what the vast majority has expected, saddened not to be able to test my skills against Elmark-sama and many other giants of TW… Sad that I might spend another three or four years before the next TW title hits the shelves which I could play then… Saddened that Rome wasn’t a game to end all games, and it could have easily been.

I can’t even hope anymore. That may be the hardest part. Perhaps all the new faces of Colloseum can, but I cannot. Not anymore.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Captain Fishpants

Actually, we even thanked the .org patrons in the RTW game credits. No: what I'm worried about is the now-automatic reaction by some that I'm from CA, therefore I must be fibbing, pig ignorant or just plain evil. A lot of that kind of comment has been personally directed at individuals within CA - just look at the reactions to TorquemadaUK's posting.

As to opinions over at .com being 'censored', they aren't to anything like the degree that you suppose. I'll say it again: our games are certificated to a T or 12+ audience; therefore a certain degree of decorum/civility is required so younger patrons and their parents can feel comfortable in visiting the forums. Is that so unreasonable? Abuse and profanity are removed, opinions are largely left alone, unless they are in areas that are clearly demarcated as off-limits. There is one category of post that does merit automatic removal: pirating the game. Then again, that is hardly surprising.

And once again, I'm not going to get into a discussion about the 'dire need' for a patch.

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Captain Fishpants,

Seriously, all the patrons of the ORG appreciate it when anyone from CA visits and posts even when we don't agree with their opinions. I think people genuinely love the series but are frustrated with RTW. Unfortunately, some of that frustration spills out into the posts. This doesn't perhaps explain everything 100%, but I hope you look past it and look for the root cause of why people feel the way they do. There is a pretty significant rift between the community and CA, and this isn't healthy for the future of Total War.

sales + reviews =/= customer satisfaction

if this forum is any indication on the status of this game in the eyes of the average person who indulges in PC based entertainment then CA has their work cut out for them in the worst way

people aren't waiting for a patch or an XP. people waited for the patches and were left wanting. I had high hopes for the patch fixing all of the problems. Well when you have one patch to fix everything in the game that's a rather unrealistic avenue to take (no the first patch doesn't count).

people are waiting for the EB Mod

I'm still totally confused why there wasn't an open beta released.

wow... the locking of threads at .com has reached a fever pitch. hehehe

Unfortunately censorship seems to be a fairly accurate description of what is going on over on the official forums. They seem to be locking everything, even what is in the rants and raves, etc.

http://p223.ezboard.com/fshoguntotalwarfrm12

these things are piling up like there's no tomorrow. i believe i've even seen many of them leave the graveyard and into the internet netherworld.

most hilarious is this one, where a mod directs someone to post in a supposedly unclosed thread... which turns out to now be closed/deleted completely. hahaha

http://p223.ezboard.com/fshoguntotal...cID=1926.topic

Anything related to loadbug is in graveyard?

That's disgusting.
That is indeed worst censorship ever.


Discussing loadgame issues isn't supposed to be same thing as asking for no-cd crack?


I really think that we should stat copy/pasting those threads in ORG and TWC, since otherwise all good data will be lost too.

Quickly before they get deleted forever!
(any volunteers?)

So is 6th april the day of 2nd purge?
Crusade against loadgame issue?

There"s No Problem Here! Move Along People

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nelson

Browning, trust me when I say the ice is cracking beneath your feet with this accusation. You speak for yourself but not me and certainly not the org at large. The man is not deaf. He must necessarily remain mute concerning certain topics. There is a vast difference.

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Please answer the simple question:
Has any of the developers performed the tests designed by Puzz3D or similar?

Well, apparently discussion is no longer welcome on forums.

While I agree abusive threads should be locked\moved, some of them should not be. I'm referring to these in particular:

http://p223.ezboard.com/fshoguntotal...cID=1936.topic
http://p223.ezboard.com/fshoguntotal...cID=1938.topic

No reason to close these - perfectly good questions (the answers to which would have been interesting) in topics which were both locked and shunted off. This behaviour, IMO, is disgusting.

Background: I like R:TW, and played both M:TW(VI) and S:TW(WE) from release, but only get to play for relatively short periods so find the AI less than challenging on the strategic map. I have a son who plays too, so we can't use the hibernate/keep-running work-around. Oh, and I'm a software developer who understands the difference between a bug and a feature, and between a code bug and an analysis/design bug.

So, CA designed R:TW so that the AI re-evaluates its strategies every few turns, and at least on every load game.

This probably sounded very reasonable during the design process -- and would have had the significant benefit that it avoids having to persist (in the save game file) the AI's strategic planning/analysis data. As a developer, I've made similar decisions and might well have done the same thing in their shoes.

Clearly this approach means that there is a difference between "1 hour session" and "5 hour session" players: the former will have AI re-evaluating the position every turn, while the latter will have the AI re-evaluating every few turns. And this too would be fine if the "every few turns" re-evaluation were, say, just an optimisation (to reduce the time taken by the AI turn calcs becoming excessive).

However, testing shows that when the AI is forced to re-evaluate every turn (by loading a saved game) it dramatically reduces its expansion. This seems not to have been discovered during alpha and beta testing -- perhaps because testers paid to test the campaign play day-long sessions.

This may because the load-game "re-evaluation" is bugged (i.e. works differently from the normal periodic re-evaluation), or it may be that the re-evaluation is simply prone to "dithering" and it is only because the periodic re-evaluations happen only every few turns that the AI is not hamstrung in long session play too. (CA devs could probably test this fairly easily by making a special build with the "periodic re-eval" set to "every turn" and comparing the AI's performance. It might be possible for this to be done by community testing, e.g. using RomeSAGE to increment the turn counter, but such testing would be so "unrealistic" that it would probably be dismissed by CA in any case.)

It is a matter of speculation as to whether CA are being cynical about this bug^Wfeature (e.g. they knew, either from testing or just "by design", that persisting the AI state was too complicated, so they really chose re-evaluate-on-load from necessity but are now dressing it up as a design choice and/or the knew that AI re-evaluation would get nowhere if run every turn, so used periodic re-evaluations to mitigate the negative effects and/or are playing down the bug^Wfeature because they can't afford to create-test-support another patch) or whether they are simply not aware of the interactions and emergent behaviour resulting from the various design decisions they have made. Without a mole/whistle-blower from CA turning up, I don't see how we could ever find out, and don't see what it would gain us if we did.

In any case, to fix this bug^Wfeature, CA will probably need to either:

i) persist the AI stategic plan data in the savegame file

ii) make the load-game re-evaluation work the same as the periodic one (if it differs)

iii) make all AI re-evaluations work better (e.g. by increasing its preference for siege if it is already sieging)

Ironically, the best case for a fix is probably if CA *is* being completely cynical about this -- they know there is a problem and what the cause is, but won't admit it because of the pressure for a patch that would result. In that case, they may well fix it in the XP. I don't envy the XP release note author the job of describing that fix -- they can't hide it because many R:TW owners (including me) certainly won't buy the XP without knowing it has a fix for this bug^Wfeature, but as soon as they list it the community will cry "you knew about it all along you b*******!" :duel:

The worst case is that CA devs know about the bug, and have realised that it is a fundamental problem with the way the AI works (i.e. they can't do (i) or (iii) above because it is too hard, and load-game is already using the "right" re-evaluation code so (ii) doesn't apply). In that case, we're back to looking for alternatives to R:TW.

In either case, CA will have to work hard on the design of the next TW to ensure its features don't overwhelm its AI (a common problem with TBS games -- look at CTP/CTP2 for example), and CA/SEGA will have to be more careful about how testing is done to ensure it reflects how punters actually play the game.

...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Duke John

If you really care so much for this game then you should all calm down and start writing a detailed bug report, with screenshots, the settings/environment of when it happened and possible fixes/solutions.

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~:confused: this has been done over and over, on numerous threads at com, org and twc. CA either does not understand the methodology and implications, or outright dismisses/ignores them completely. of course, you'll always have participants that will flame and troll on otherwise helpful threads.

...

it has been attempted to keep these threads "clean". i agree that those which appear on twc and org should be moderated more heavily to "stay on focus". as for the official .com forums , they claim to have the power to edit and delete posts at their discretion and with more strictness than here or at twc, but instead it looks like they simply use the appearence of anything they deem as "rants" in these threads as justification/excuse to move the threads into the "rants" forum and eventually to lock the threads completely or have them relegated to the graveyard.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Colovion

if this forum is any indication on the status of this game in the eyes of the average person who indulges in PC based entertainment then CA has their work cut out for them in the worst way

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It's not. I seriously doubt anyone who hasn't been to the forums is aware of this particular issue. And that represents the majority of the people who bought the game.

I still remember when Thief 3 came out. There was a bug that caused the difficulty level to default to "easy" any time you loaded the savegame. This was true on the xbox as well. Was there a huge cry on the xbox forums? Nope. They never really noticed, because they weren't really looking for it.

Same case here. Economically speaking, CA will be fine ignoring this bug, assuming all other things to be equal. The percentage of people in the "I'm never buying another CA product" is too small to have any real impact on their sales.

Bh

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tai4ji2x

it has been attempted to keep these threads "clean". i agree that those which appear on twc and org should be moderated more heavily to "stay on focus".

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The thread on this issue in the Ludus Magna forum, here, will have as much (or hopefully as little) moderation as necessary for it to stay completely on track.

PS Welcome to the forums, mishad! ~:wave:

CA knew the AI didn't recover the full game state after a loadgame because they designed it that way, and they said nothing. They must have been hoping that no one noticed this issue. Since the number of times you save makes a difference in the course of the game, players should have been advised of it. However, when you realize that this "reassessment" by the AI is causing it to make "inferior" decisions, I guess you wouldn't want to say anything.

After reading over at the usenet strategic newsgroup, apparently the game Galactic Civilization has this loss of memory behavior even worse than Rome, and that game hasn't been fixed either.

When you look at the heavy handed, draconian censorship going on at
.com over anything that comes close to talking about any bug, you have to wonder why CA is so sensitive and unwilling to discuss or even try to refute people with evidence rather than flat footed denials. As other members of this forum who are also programmers have said: RTW is incomplete. Looking at the files we DO have access to shows many elements which were in the works but scrapped or never completed. Finding "kindergarten mistakes" like reversed "" signs which caused the silly scarring trait to manifest on every Roman combat general are further evidence of the rushed and incomplete way this project has been handled.

As a developer, I must say there is absolutely no way I believe The Shogun's statement that the AI was deliberately designed to
"reevaluate" in the couched way he described. What has happened here, IMHO, is the work to add persistence to the game with the save file was not completed when Activision finally dropped the bomb and said, "boys, you're 18 months late, and we won't wait any longer." So this left CA in the position of having to hope for the best. And their hopes panned out. Getting the GOTY awards and critical acclaim from sources which only do cursory examinations of games allowed CA to get catapulted into the major leagues of game development by getting SEGA to buy them.

I have also considered another reason for the tremendous arrogance I've seen coming from some CA staff toward the lowly consumers. If CA is anything like smaller development houses I've worked for, they attract and keep talent through a combination of salary and contingent benefits like stock options and bonuses for the developers. The acquisition by SEGA of CA means the original management with ownership has probably largely been bought out, or made wealthy enough to not care much what happens from here. The developers on the team have probably been substantially enriched as well, and if you are 25, and find yourself with a lot of bonus/stock option money, it is pretty conceivable that some arrogant attitude may show itself. That isn't an excuse for treating people wrongly, just a theory as to why they would.

If CA can't/won't fix the bugs, then they will eventually pay the price for that down the road. It might not be the current team members who pay, but will likely be other young hopefulls who join later, and find that the company policy of forcing inferior quality out the door ends up euthanizing the organization. That's an old story, and one I've seen personally more than once...Oh well, c'est la vive!