The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations

Members of the Senate, as you know I have never been in favour of any military action that would bring us into conflict with Carthage. I have and still believe that we are not strong enough…yet…..however, the die was cast and we now find ourselves at war with them, weather we like it or not!

Carthage will NOT sit by and accept our unopposed occupation of Sicily. They will press us and compel us to battle at every point they can, they will blockade our ports and kill our troops.

Whilst I sense that a counter invasion of Afrika is beyond us in the next 5 years, I feel that Tiberius Coruncanius’s forward view and determination to at least make us READY for such occurrences makes him my favoured candidate.

Gaul. The truth be told, I feel insecure here in Roma with only Arretium between us and those Hordes of Chaos! Whilst I am not “scared” I am certainly worried enough to see the value in the short-term conquest of the regions to the North. For tactical reasons I understand the arguments, for and against this action so perhaps we should authorise further and more detailed investigation as to the economic wealth of these regions?

They lay on seemingly, fertile plains thus I surmise they should be able to sate our need for denarii with minimal investment. It is clear that I could be wrong, or those saying they are areas of little wealth could be equally wrong.

I can only think of one way of settling this argument……first hand information.

I say that should our agents inform us that these settlements a profitable we take them for the Republic….if they do not then we re-enforce the pass between Arretium and Ariminum.

Is it possible that our agents find this information out?

I suggest that the next Consul invests in our infrastructure first and foremost. Should it be seen as advantageous to take the Gallic lands to the North I still do not believe it will take a significant improvement in our current standing armies hence can be achieved alongside any building improvements.

Yes, without question, we must raise a larger navy to protect our ports from blockades and protect our lands from invasion.

However, I do not believe that we will be in a position to invade Afrika within the next tenure of Consul. The building blocks of such an undertaking can be laid in this next tenure, the undertaking itself can only successfully be completed in the 5 year period beyond the next.

So, whilst I strongly support Tiberius Coruncanius for Consul and applaud his plans I also acknowledge that it is unlikely that he will complete these plans……the treasury will just NOT support it all in the time period he wishes to complete it. It will not be the Senate that prevents his final actions but simply a lack of fiscal funding and I do not believe that a Senator of Coruncanius’s standing would bankrupt the Republic for personal gain, nor destroy its armies in a fruitless invasion.

[QUINTUS]: I would like to ask the candidates three questions:

(1) Will you commit not to stand for re-election for another 10 years? Roma will not abide a dictator and I believe there is enough talent in the Senate to fill the shoes of the First Consul.

(2) What building investments do you believe to be the most profitable? I confess, inspecting the further details of each settlement, I was not able to identify particularly high return investments beyond mines and traders (the latter I valued as much for their benefits for population growth as for their monetary return). Indeed, I wonder if temples and other buildings to raise loyalty will pay off more than strictly economic ones, if they allow us to raise taxes without stiffling population growth.

(3) What is your opinion about minor naval landings in Melte and perhaps Sardinia and Corsica? We can only land three units, but I believe with a couple of cohorts, I could seize lightly defended settlements. The question is whether you believe the Carthaginians would try to reclaim them, in which case our lack of a serious fleet will make defending them very difficult.

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Originally Posted by Death the destroyer of worlds

Motion #7 : An attempt should be made to further weaken the power of Carthage (will require the building of a fleet).

Motion #8 : An attempt should be made to make peace with the Greeks (requires sending a new diplomat).

Motion #9 : We should construct a fleet.

Motion #10 : An attempt should be made to create an alliance with the Iberians, with the goal of further weakening Carthage's power.

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I would like to second all of these motions

Motions 7 & 9 are no-brainers conscript fathers,we need a fleet first and foremost to protect ourselves from Carthage. We will also need a fleet if we are to go onto the offensive, have vengeance on Carthage for their great crimes and finish this war that they forced us into

Motion 8 - we cannot go on fighting 2 enemies at once. Carthage is the greater threat in the short and long term, so we must concentrate on them.

Motion 10 - it is of great concern to me that we currently have no allies anywhere in the world, whilst we fight wars with 2 of our nearest and most powerful allies.

As for Cisalpine Gaul, whilst I see the strategic logic in occupying it, the truth is Conscript Fathers that now is not the time - we are over-stretched and under-funded, vulnerable to attack anywhere due to our long coastline and small navy. We must focus our efforts on the troubles at hand, not create new ones.

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Originally Posted by econ21

(3) What is your opinion about minor naval landings in Melte and perhaps Sardinia and Corsica? We can only land three units, but I believe with a couple of cohorts, I could seize lightly defended settlements. The question is whether you believe the Carthaginians would try to reclaim them, in which case our lack of a serious fleet will make defending them very difficult.

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Second Consul Quintus, whilst I am not standing for the Consulship may I state my opinion that taking these islands would be a fools errand. Attacking Carthage here would do them as much harm as poking an elephant with a stick. We may be able to take these islands easily enough, but all it would do is further overstretch our limited resources, thin our army out, and add more cities that need Romanising! We would be unable to support, reinforce and re-supply our armies there, and Carthage would be able to easily blockade the ports.

We must concentrate our forces defensively, ready for any Carthaginian counter-attack, whilst at the same time building our strength whilst we wait to go onto the offensive ourselves.

As with Cisalpine Gaul, the last thing we need right now are more provinces!

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Originally Posted by FLYdude

What is this, Verginus? You are listing random buildings, saying how much they cost, and presenting that as proof that our treasury cannot support a war with Carthage? We do not need shipwrights, we do not need auxilia, we do not need road networks. We have, at this very moment, nearly 10 provinces in which we can build Aphracts, which only cost 700 each. Our treasury and current income can easily support the acquisition of 20 or so we'll need over the course of a year.

And what do you suggest we do instead? Sit around and wait for the Carthaginians to march on Rome? I only propose what is necessary to ensure the survival of the Republic.

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We do not need shipwrights? We do not need roads? We do not need auxilia? Do you hear this, fellow Senators? Senator Coruncanius believes he can fight the might of Carthage while only able to produce troops from our original three cities. Need I remind you that not a single of our new conquests is capable of produce anything but boats and agents? Even if Rome, Capua and Ancona recruit Legions and Auxilia constantly, we will be outpaced by both Punic and Gallic recruitment. As for shipwrights, does Senator Coruncanius plan to take on the Punic navy with nothing more than light warships? We might as well throw velites into melee with Spartans! If we are to be victorious on the seas, we must have powerful ships with which to defeat our enemies. As for roads, how does Senator Coruncanius expect to reinforce threatened borders? What if the Greeks were to land at Tarentum? It could take our Legions half a year or more to reach that place to defend it! Half a year more would be wasted returning to the Gallic frontier. I do not know about you, Senators, but I do not relish the idea of weakening our border with the Gauls for a day, let alone a year!

How is the conquest of Africa necessary for the survival of the Republic? Our Legions can defeat all which oppose them, but they must be full strength legions and they must be supported and supplied. How can we do this when they are in Africa and our only recruitment bases are in Rome, Capua and Ancona? An invasion of Africa can only be accomplished when Sicily itself can support the attack. This is what we should be doing.

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Originally Posted by econ21

[QUINTUS]: I would like to ask the candidates three questions:

(1) Will you commit not to stand for re-election for another 10 years? Roma will not abide a dictator and I believe there is enough talent in the Senate to fill the shoes of the First Consul.

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Certainly. I am only standing for Consul this term because of my firm belief that Rome must concentrate the majority of her efforts to short term domestic development. It is fully my intention to make the Republic ready to deal with any threats, whether they be Greek, Gallic or Punic. If I was elected, I would step down happily and vigorously support the election of a capable military commander to lead our Legions to further victories in whatever campaign this body chooses.

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Originally Posted by econ21

(2) What building investments do you believe to be the most profitable? I confess, inspecting the further details of each settlement, I was not able to identify particularly high return investments beyond mines and traders (the latter I valued as much for their benefits for population growth as for their monetary return). Indeed, I wonder if temples and other buildings to raise loyalty will pay off more than strictly economic ones, if they allow us to raise taxes without stiffling population growth.

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It is more than economic, Senator Quintus. I am not an economist and my construction proposals go beyond providing more income. Certainly more roads and ports will increase income, but we are severely lacking in the infrastructure to support long-distance campaigns, especially in Africa. As I stated to Senator Coruncanius, we have only THREE cities in which we can recruit men for the Legions and the Auxilia. This is totally unacceptable. We must be able to raise men in many places at once to deal with threats both expected and unexpected. We must have roads and ships to transport these men to the threatened areas.

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Originally Posted by econ21

(3) What is your opinion about minor naval landings in Melte and perhaps Sardinia and Corsica? We can only land three units, but I believe with a couple of cohorts, I could seize lightly defended settlements. The question is whether you believe the Carthaginians would try to reclaim them, in which case our lack of a serious fleet will make defending them very difficult.

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If you shall recall, I was the *first* to propose such a thing. Of course, the lack of a serious fleet will make defending them difficult. That is why I shall build a formidable fleet before embarking on the expeditions. I must say again that I am not a pacifist. I recognize the benefits of conquest as well as any other. I am merely urging a more limited expansion over the next 5 years than my opponents. Why take Africa when we cannot yet support our Legions there? Why take Gaul when it will make us more vulnerable and drain our Treasury?

Senators, I do not propose to sit idly by. I propose that we build the strength of Rome into a mighty force that can strike anywhere it wishes, any time that it wishes. In five years we can advance in full force against any place that this body sees fit to take. In the mean time, let us pluck the the easy pickings that will secure our shores and let us build our strength.

I say again, why risk all when we can have all with no risk?

Senator Amulius Coruncanius, whilst is seems good prudence to wait now and focus internally and defensively I am greatly fearful that Carthage as a power will out produce us and out expand us completely.

Second Consul Quintus has worked hard and paid in blood to try and elevate the Republic on par with Carthage, if we pause now they will surely outstrip us further and his work will be to nought.

I do agree that we need to build infrastructure but we must not completely pause now, we are in a race against a great power and if we sit back and do nothing to expand and prosper we will surely become just a protectorate of Carthage!

I strongly believe that within the next 5 years we can achieve so much to further our cause against the Carthenaginians. We can raise a 4th Legion, we can expand our influence physically and diplomatically, we can improve our current settlements and we can raise a navy of no small note.

What we cannot do is invade Afrika, nor do I feel we would be prudent in seizing all the islands mentioned until we have at least TWO navies in which to support our troops on those islands.

The Republic must expand in which to ensure our future against an ever aggressive Carthage to our South, easy expansion North is my hope for the next 5 years, coupled with careful improvement of our main cities and the raising of a 4th legion and one navy.

Yes, these are NOT small tasks BUT they are achievable for the next Consul and will NOT bankrupt us or lead us into a war we cannot win now.

We do not need to focus completely on internal matters, we need to be more prudent than that and be selective in what the Republics money is spent on to ensure maximum output.

The newly liberated settlements are lower on the improvements list than our core cities, they will have to remain so until Carthage is at least pacified. A navy is high on our improvement list also, our armies need only bolstering and the addition of one Legion to see us past this next phase, we need income from all avenues as a priority. Conquest brings slaves and money into the Republic, it is not as great a cost as is being described here. Tiberius Coruncanius’s Legion is not as weak as many here advise, nor are the Gauls as strong.

The next Consul will be faced with very hard choices when it comes to spending the Republic’s funds that is sure and he can plan or commit to whatever projects he pleases but I am sure that the reality of a Carthage threat and our need to at least keep pace with them, will steer his endeavours.

Senator Augustus Verginus, if I may quote you "In the mean time, let us pluck the the easy pickings that will secure our shores and let us build our strength."

If you are discounting expanding North into Gallic held regions and discounting liberating the Islands or Carthage....

.....where are you proposing you expand?

[QUINTUS]: Having taken the time to study the manifestoes of the three present candidates for First Consul, I must express my pleasure at the clear and substantive choices we have been presented with. I would like to take this opportunity to summarise my perception of the differences in the programmes of the three candidates.

Augustus Verginius offers a period of consolidation. Peace with Carthage and Greece, if it can be obtained. The seizure of Melite, Carolis and Aleria, if Carthage is obstinate and our fleet capable. My perception is that this is a safe course of action and I have no doubt that my the Senator has the skill and Rome has the capacity to deal with any threats that may emerge.

Lucius Amelius offers a similar programme, with the addition that he intends to march north into Cisalpine Gaul. This course of action, although more risky than that of Senator Verginus, is close to what I advocated in my end-of-term report to the Senate. I have no doubt the Senator could succeed in his plan, given the tactical skills he demonstrated at the gates of Rhegium. However, I would caution against advancing north with less than a Consular army. While we may triumph when greatly outnumbered, fighting against the odds would needlessly increase our losses.

Tiberius Coruncanius offers us the prospect of an invasion of Africa, while maintaining peace with Gaul. I must confess this proposal initially astounded me in its audacity. The weakness of our fleet had led me to rule it out in my end-of-term report. And yet on reflection, I suspect it could just work. The distance between Lilybaeum and Carthage is not far and with luck a fleet of transports might traverse it without interception by the stronger Carthaginian navy. A Praetorian sized army could be landed initially and be safe against attack, then soon reinforced to Consular strength. The prospect is thrilling, although whether my excitement stems from the size of the possible rewards and the extent of the risk involved, I cannot fathom.

Senators, I hope I have not misrepresented the proposals of any of our fine candidates. If I have been accurate, then truly we are fortunate at this moment to have such clear alternatives displayed before us. We will not be choosing on personalities or petty factional loyalties, but on grand matters of state and most particularly on the level of risk we are willing to take. It will not be an easy choice and personally I confess I need further time to reflect on which course of action to endorse.

I will take time to address the issues raised by Verginus, and to answer the questions posed by Quintus.

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Originally Posted by Verginus

We do not need shipwrights? We do not need roads? We do not need auxilia? Do you hear this, fellow Senators? Senator Coruncanius believes he can fight the might of Carthage while only able to produce troops from our original three cities. Need I remind you that not a single of our new conquests is capable of produce anything but boats and agents? Even if Rome, Capua and Ancona recruit Legions and Auxilia constantly, we will be outpaced by both Punic and Gallic recruitment.

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Yes, we can be outpaced by Punic and Gallic recruitment, and that is why we go to war. If we take their cities, they can't recruit anything. If we remain idle, they will outpace us, and then attack us. Then we are going up against them with only our three provinces recruiting, but the fight is in our lands, and the discrepancy between our armies is even bigger because they had time to exploit their advantage. Imagine they had the ability to recruit two more units per quarter than we, and we started with equal armies. After one quarter, they would have two more units than us. After two quarters, four more units. After a year, eight more. In just over two years, they could have an additional consular-strength army, and that's just with 5 provinces working instead of 3. Now then, would you attack now, or wait two years to be attacked?

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Originally Posted by Verginus

As for shipwrights, does Senator Coruncanius plan to take on the Punic navy with nothing more than light warships? We might as well throw velites into melee with Spartans! If we are to be victorious on the seas, we must have powerful ships with which to defeat our enemies. As for roads, how does Senator Coruncanius expect to reinforce threatened borders? What if the Greeks were to land at Tarentum? It could take our Legions half a year or more to reach that place to defend it! Half a year more would be wasted returning to the Gallic frontier. I do not know about you, Senators, but I do not relish the idea of weakening our border with the Gauls for a day, let alone a year!

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The naval situation is not ideal, but if we wait too long, the Carthaginian navy may increase as their army could. I don't expect our fleet to engage in direct combat with the full strength of the navy of Carthage. Indeed, its primary purpose would be to support the army. But they could still win engagements against Carthage if they're numerous enough, and, as they're cheap, they could be more easily replaced than the Carthaginian ships. You say it would be like attacking Spartans with velites, but you don't specify how many velites or similarly light troops would there be. I ask you, who won at Thermopylae?

A Greek attack in Tarentum is unlikely, especially if we make peace with them, as they are busy in Illyria, so I don't understand why you are panicking. I expect to leave some garrison there, in any case.

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Originally Posted by Quintus

(1) Will you commit not to stand for re-election for another 10 years? Roma will not abide a dictator and I believe there is enough talent in the Senate to fill the shoes of the First Consul.

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Certainly. I'd say you established that as something of a tradition.

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Originally Posted by Quintus

(2) What building investments do you believe to be the most profitable? I confess, inspecting the further details of each settlement, I was not able to identify particularly high return investments beyond mines and traders (the latter I valued as much for their benefits for population growth as for their monetary return). Indeed, I wonder if temples and other buildings to raise loyalty will pay off more than strictly economic ones, if they allow us to raise taxes without stiffling population growth.

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It's difficult to say outright. From an economic standpoint, mines are always useful, as are traders, although higher level ones only if there are a number of ports within reach, which is more the case in the south than in the north. The dual-purpose of roads cannot be ignored. The indirect economic effect of temples and such is valid, but I'm not sure if it's significant compared to dedicated economic buildings.

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Originally Posted by Quintus

(3) What is your opinion about minor naval landings in Melte and perhaps Sardinia and Corsica? We can only land three units, but I believe with a couple of cohorts, I could seize lightly defended settlements. The question is whether you believe the Carthaginians would try to reclaim them, in which case our lack of a serious fleet will make defending them very difficult.

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There isn't too much value in those islands, at least for my plan of the invasion of Africa, and they would be bypassed. But there may be some value in diversionary attacks prior to the invasion of Africa. Not Malta, as it's too close to the invasion route, but Sardinia and Corsica. If the Carthaginians were to try to take them back, it would take a part of their army and much of their fleet away from our real target. And should they not want those islands back, then we have ourselves some new islands, which is never a bad thing.

Gentlemen, what we have here is an excessive case of fear-mongering.

"Rome is in danger," you cry out like parrots. "If we do not strike them they will strike us!" I have had quite enough of this!

Contrary to what some members of this house believe, the only warlike state around is our own. The Carthaginians have just lost the entire island of Sicily. Their power has been compromised. It will take some time for them to regroup. They do not threaten us. We threaten them. Likewise with Greece. Their leader, a war hawk, has been killed by us. They have also lost plenty of territories courtesy of us. They will not return.

As for Gaul. They have other problems to settle. While we have not directly given them a blow I am sure that they are fighting off the other barbarian peoples, as well as conquering the independent cities. And yet still you see them as a looming terror. Gaul is smart. They are worrying about Gaul rather than Rome.

Senators, it greatly saddens me to see your attitudes about these foreign situations. You speak as if every minor faction around us has the limitless armies like the old Persian king Darius. You also speak of our great city being the primary target of every single one of these factions. According to you, they are all determined to destroy us, no matter what the cost. Fellow Senators, I plead with you to return to Earth.

Look around at our city. A great majority of the people live in terrible poverty. Their -and our- economic situation is dire. And yet some candidates continue to aim to build the military, which is apparently the only thing worth spending money on! Gentlemen, one day your military bill is going to far outpace our economic growth, and then where will be? If war is all we care about then we are no better than those barbarians that Senator Coruncanius seems so worried about. That is why I wholeheartedly endorse Senator Augustus Verginius as the next Consul. He, at least, has his priorities straight.

Manifesto of Publius Pansa

I, Publius Pansa, stand for Consul in the year 275. Rome needs a strong leader now more then ever. Pyyrhus has been pushed aside, but in his place come blonde barbarians in the north and dark Carthiginians in the south.

Regarding Gaul: The Gauls are neutral now, but have they not a history of breaking alliances and attacking Italians? I feel a push is needed in order to give us more breathing room in the North, not to mention the natural barrier the Alps will pose. We should not go any further then the Alps however. Nor should we attack Gaul immediately. We should raise at least another legion, preferably two, before attacking Gaul. This would allow us to blitz Gaul and take all her Italian holdings before she can react.

Regarding Carthage: They lie accross the sea and are more powerful then Gaul. Why should we not attack them, you may ask. The answer lies in the facts, because they are accross the sea and are more powerful then Gaul. We do not have nearly a strong enough navy to launch troops into Africa. Not to mention the lack of troops themselves. We cannot afford to weaken the south of Italy any more then it already is. So I promise you, I will strengthen the garrisons of southern Italy, and promote naval buildings in Syracuse and Tarentum. Let Carthage sail towards us and fight, it will be in our lands and on our terms.

Regarding Greece: Although getting a peace with these people may seem neccessary to some, I say let them fight with Illyria, and let us hold our hostilities with them. The enemy of my emeny is my friend, so hopefully the Illyrians will not decide they have intrests in Patavium before we can get there.


Now I shall answer any questions you may have:

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Originally Posted by Quintus

(1) Will you commit not to stand for re-election for another 10 years? Roma will not abide a dictator and I believe there is enough talent in the Senate to fill the shoes of the First Consul.

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I certainly agree. There are many here in thsi house willing and able to server as First Consul. This is a Republic after all, and I shall avoid running again. If though, as Cincinnatus once did, we are need of a leader, I hope both you and I and every member of this house is willing to take up the sword and lead in times of trouble.

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Originally Posted by Quintus

(2) What building investments do you believe to be the most profitable? I confess, inspecting the further details of each settlement, I was not able to identify particularly high return investments beyond mines and traders (the latter I valued as much for their benefits for population growth as for their monetary return). Indeed, I wonder if temples and other buildings to raise loyalty will pay off more than strictly economic ones, if they allow us to raise taxes without stiffling population growth.

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Where neccessary, we should build traders. These promote economic growth, and population as well. Unless I am very much mistaken, all of our current holdings have a sea border, so a trader will help overseas and land trade alike. At your suggestion, Quintus, I will built sea-buildings in Syracuse and Tarentum, since these are apparently the best for ship-building.

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Originally Posted by Quintus

(3) What is your opinion about minor naval landings in Melte and perhaps Sardinia and Corsica? We can only land three units, but I believe with a couple of cohorts, I could seize lightly defended settlements. The question is whether you believe the Carthaginians would try to reclaim them, in which case our lack of a serious fleet will make defending them very difficult.

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I do not think this is neccessary or wise. Why weaken our current holdings for lands which we won't be able to hold onto anyways? Carthage will eaasily be able to take them back and certainly will blockade the ports, so they are of little value to us.

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According to you, they are all determined to destroy us, no matter what the cost.

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GeneralHankerchief, if we are not cautious and do not suspect everyone, then we will be destroyed. He does not stirke first is first struck, and if we rule Rome assuming Carthage and Gaul and Greece are all out there to be our friends and allies, we are fools. Great empires are not maintained by timidity.

This empire does not need to go to war out of fear of being outpaced or attacked by stronger foes. No I believe we are quite safe in our position.

This empire must go to war to expand its income. Our current income is not nearly enough to support such large buildings efforts as are proposed. Nor is it large enough to support such large fleets as are proposed.

And so we must gain more land not out of fear or anything as stupid as that but out of the need to gain more gold.

Let me begin by giving thanks to Jupiter Capitolinus for granting to Quintus and the Republic such glorious gains
in the past five years. I cannot think that Jupiter encourages us with these successes to discourage us from continuing
a congruent course of action. I believe His will is quite to the contrary.

It appears that Augustus Verginius, & Lucius Amelius offer us variations on a theme. Both seek to grow our economy by
sending Diplomats to sue for peace with our enemies thereby buying time to build our strength. Both seek extraterritorial
nuggets to augment our internal growth with plunder and act as the wetstone for the fighting edged of the legions. Prudent,
it would appear. Little danger in either of those courses of action. Prudence often makes the difference between glory
and disaster. It is the watch word of the sagacious elders who have seen much and can attest to its benefits.

I have not come before you to argue against Prudence my brothers. I do however worry that Prudence has been mistaken.
How easily Indecision and Timidity come before us clothed in the robes of Prudence. A much better speaker than this humble
Patrician once said "In the way of every great and noble enterprise stands the desire for safety." We are tasked with
more than just the safety of this mighty Republic. We are tasked with the complete annihilation of our enemies. Jupiter
demands it!

The opportunity Quintus Victor has handed to this Republic cannot be passed over. Sicily is a dagger pointed at the heart
of the Carthaginians. From Lilybaeum in the far west a crossing to Afrika is certainly feasible with only a couple of more
ships. This plans brilliance is in its perceived difficulty. The greedy Phoenicians will never remotely suspect such thing.
Perhaps some feints at the islands that Augustus Verginius wants to conquer may be prudent to ensure that they will
never suspect our true goal.

Romulus did not rule this city because he made peace with his brother. Brutus did not rescue us from Tyranny with sound
economic policy. Please Senators, Brothers, Romans, I implore you to cast your vote for Tiberius Coruncanius.

Honored senators,

I have been occupied with organizing the governing of our new conquests and I am smeared behind my back ! Senator Augustus Verginus (TinCow) has the audacity to accuse me and senator Tiberius Coruncanius (FLYdude) of treason ! I will not stand for these allegations. No man can claim me to ever have put my own good before that of the Roman people ! He further insinuates that I am the slave of our traders and want to go to war to fill their pockets.

I spit on these allegations !

Not only are they vile in nature, but also a clear demonstration that senator Augustus Verginus lacks the most basic understanding of the workings of our economy, which all of us are in agreement, is in dire need of improvement. Clearly, he is the man of the hour (*sarcasm*). It is well know I have a good relationship with our traders and it is the people that profit from it. The profits generated by our merchants are the only reason our people are not starving to death right now, with our budget stretched to the very limit. Instead of being villified by senator Augustus Verginus, the merchants should be praised and encouraged as much as possible. You are all men of rank, so I will not continue this explanation, as you hopefully are blessed with a better understanding of finance than this 'honored' senator.

As to the charge that the raids and possible capture of the Cartheginian islands are a major drain on our strained finances, that is another obvious misconstruction of reality. The Carthegian towns on these islands are very lightly garrisoned and can be taken by lightning raids by a force as small as 4 maniples and 4 ships to transport them. These towns are also well developed, with lucrative ports and markets, which our own towns are sadly lacking.
In the worst case scenario, even if we only held on of these towns for a single season, we would still have gained, as the the profits of just one season would pay for the whole cost of fitting out the raid. I suspect however, that the Cartheginians will give up on the islands once we capture them and instead concentrate on their colonies in Spain instead. Even if they do not, we will have been fighting them on their soil instead of on our own. Which do you think our people would prefer ?

Now I will answer the questions posed to me by consul Quintus :

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Originally Posted by econ21

(1) Will you commit not to stand for re-election for another 10 years? Roma will not abide a dictator and I believe there is enough talent in the Senate to fill the shoes of the First Consul.

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I would think this a logical assumption, it had not even crossed my mind to stand for re-election. If the senate called on me to stand for office I would of course comply.

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Originally Posted by econ21

(2) What building investments do you believe to be the most profitable? I confess, inspecting the further details of each settlement, I was not able to identify particularly high return investments beyond mines and traders (the latter I valued as much for their benefits for population growth as for their monetary return). Indeed, I wonder if temples and other buildings to raise loyalty will pay off more than strictly economic ones, if they allow us to raise taxes without stiffling population growth.

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Our most pressing need is roads and traders, followed by mines and markets. Roads are absolutely vital military, and also produce trade. The traders are cheap to build and I will build these when I lack the funds to build markets or mines. I might build several temples in towns which do not have an italian culture to surpress unrest.

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Originally Posted by econ21

(3) What is your opinion about minor naval landings in Melte and perhaps Sardinia and Corsica? We can only land three units, but I believe with a couple of cohorts, I could seize lightly defended settlements. The question is whether you believe the Carthaginians would try to reclaim them, in which case our lack of a serious fleet will make defending them very difficult.

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I believe I have answered this question in detail just now.

Finally, I will further clarify my position on Cispine Gaul. The three minor town are relatively unimportant, except for Jenuensis, which might become a valuable port town in the future. The key here is Patavium, which is a walled town of immense strategic importance. We need it, it is as simple as that. The Gauls are not be trusted, and they are too near Rome to give me a good night's rest as I was campaigning in the south with my family at home in Rome. What would be a better place to fight an invader ? At the unwalled town of Arminium, a stone's throw away from Rome itself ? Or in Cispine Gaul, which is perhaps the most easily defended stretch of land in Europe ? It is now held by the weak Gauls, who can be dislogded easily, but what if Macedon or Greece, or even Carthage strikes there before us ? We would be in a very dangerous strategic situation. I believe in defense in depth. We must strike them the moment we are ready.

Finally, I would discuss the strategy of senator Tiberius Coruncanius who seems to have a most vocal following. What strikes me most about these followers of him, is that they applaud him wildly, and then critize his strategy ? :stupido2: It seems to me his bold, but completely unrealistic, plans of African conquest stir the hearts of these men, and then a little later their brains catch up with them. I would advise these men to listen to their minds a bit more. Then perhaps they will realize that my strategy is the one their minds agree with and they will not let their hearts carry this nation into folly.

Lastly, I would welcome Publius Pansa as a candidate in this election.

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Originally Posted by Braden

If you are discounting expanding North into Gallic held regions and discounting liberating the Islands or Carthage....

.....where are you proposing you expand?

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Senator, if you will re-read my statements, including my manifesto, you will see that I have, at all times, specifically stated that I would annex the Carthaginian islands if war continues. I believe that Senator Lucius Aemilius has made a similar mistake in interpreting my words.

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Originally Posted by FLYdude

If we remain idle, they will outpace us, and then attack us. Then we are going up against them with only our three provinces recruiting, but the fight is in our lands, and the discrepancy between our armies is even bigger because they had time to exploit their advantage.

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Yet I do not propose to continue recruiting from only three provinces. I plan to invest heavily in auxilia training to allow many of our newly allied Italian provinces to contribute their strength to the fight. In the meantime, I shall continue to build with the three available training centers and continue to strengthen the Gallic border. By doing so I will not lose out on one single recruit that you would otherwise be able to contribute, yet I will also maintain the formal truce on our northern border, allowing our Italian allies the maximum amount of time to prepare so that we may count on their full support when war comes. You, on the otherhand, will need to divert nearly all recruiting in our three current provinces to support your invasion of Africa. You will leave the Gallic border weak and Rome vulnerable for the sake of Punic plunder.

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Originally Posted by FLYdude

I ask you, who won at Thermopylae?

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Why, Senator... the answer to that would be the Persians.

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Originally Posted by TinCow

I have, at all times, specifically stated that I would annex the Carthaginian islands if war continues.

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If I may ask, Senator, how will oyu take the islands from the Carthaginians when only one unit can fit on each boat, and how will you hold on to them? Even still, what good are they to Rome if Carthage will surely blockade the ports? Their farm-land is sub par, their importance comes from trade. How will you trade if the ports are blocked?

[QUINTUS]: I cannot speak for my former Tribune, Senator Verginius, but I would like to address the issue of the outlying islands held by Carthage.

I believe it is a simple matter to take them with only our present 3 ships. Give me a cohort of hastati and one of principes, and I will take them with very little loss of life. A couple of lesser formations can then garrison each one, while I move on to the next target.

We have the advantage that both Malta and [edit:] Corsica lie close to our ports and so our fleets need not be exposed to enemy naval interception. I believe there is a land-bridge between Corsica and Sardinia.

It is possible that Carthage may seek to blockade them or even launch a sea-borne invasion to retake them, but I doubt they will make a sustained effort. Even in the worst case, I cannot see us losing more than a minor garrison.

Noble Senator, I think you are referring to Corsica..

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Originally Posted by Lucius Aemilius

Honored senators,

I have been occupied with organizing the governing of our new conquests and I am smeared behind my back ! Senator Augustus Verginus (TinCow) has the audacity to accuse me and senator Tiberius Coruncanius (FLYdude) of treason ! I will not stand for these allegations. No man can claim me to ever have put my own good before that of the Roman people ! He further insinuates that I am the slave of our traders and want to go to war to fill their pockets.

I spit on these allegations !

Not only are they vile in nature, but also a clear demonstration that senator Augustus Verginus lacks the most basic understanding of the workings of our economy, which all of us are in agreement, is in dire need of improvement. Clearly, he is the man of the hour (*sarcasm*). It is well know I have a good relationship with our traders and it is the people that profit from it. The profits generated by our merchants are the only reason our people are not starving to death right now, with our budget stretched to the very limit. Instead of being villified by senator Augustus Verginus, the merchants should be praised and encouraged as much as possible. You are all men of rank, so I will not continue this explanation, as you hopefully are blessed with a better understanding of finance than this 'honored' senator.

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Your arrogance knows no bounds. The reason you are friends with the traders is because they are helping you to amass wealth. You, in return, will help gain them property in the lands, which, you, as consul, will conquer. Such corrupt dealings are appalling for a Roman senator, much more so for a potential consul.

I have stated that we must be peaceful. Invading Africa is madness, however, I would not object on this, if two conditions are met:

I.) That the consul himself led the invasion, with one legion only.
II.) That no other general partake in the invasion.

Thus, if the invasion is a failure, it shall be the consul's fault; if he dies, then no one will mourn for his foolishness.

Tell me, Antio, if you would perhaps prefer that I invade Africa by myself?

I care little for your arbitrary challenges or conditions. I intend to invade with a full consular army, and whatever other support forces necessary. I intend to ensure victory, not set limitations and gamble for it. I feel we are very lucky that you decided to become a diplomat and not a soldier.

[House Speaker]

Senators. In your bickering you have forgotten the true purpose of these sessions. Yes debate is necessary but we are here to make motions to guide the next Consul. This session is without point if we fail to do so.

So if you have something you would like to be done, a goal to achieve or a guideline to be met or a restriction to be adhered to, then it is best for you to propose a motion so that it may become law. Debate does not make law.

For those candidates wishing to invade Gaul it may to your advantage to propose a motion for the senate to approve the declaration of war. Otherwise you may find yourself with little to do if you were to gain the position.

To the candidates. You may lose the election but you can still truly win if motions regarding your own course of action are passed.

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Originally Posted by Glaucus

If I may ask, Senator, how will oyu take the islands from the Carthaginians when only one unit can fit on each boat, and how will you hold on to them? Even still, what good are they to Rome if Carthage will surely blockade the ports? Their farm-land is sub par, their importance comes from trade. How will you trade if the ports are blocked?

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An excellent point, which is why I have continuously emphasized the need to expand our naval power. This has been one part of my development agenda from the very beginning, to include the continued construction of facilities to allow the launching of powerful vessels in addition to our current light weight design, something that Senator Coruncanius claims we do not need. While I believe Senator Quintus' statements that he could take each settlement with only two cohorts, we could quickly assemble a fleet of light warships capable of landing nearly an entire legion. Senator Quintus, who is, in my opinion, the only qualified man for the job, could easily subdue both islands and garrison the towns with this force. While this is being accomplished naval developments will continue as will research into more advanced hull designs. It is possible that these ports may suffer under Punic blockade for a short time, but our continued expansion of the fleet and its proximity to reinforcements in home waters would quickly prevail.

Some may deem this an excessive expenditure for a candidate so concerned with domestic development. To them I ask, will Carthage refrain from blockading our current ports if we leave them be? No, brothers. We all know we need a navy. We all know we need a strong navy. Faithful to my word, I will build such a force and with it we can keep the Punic ships at bay. Corsica, Sardinia and Malta are closer to our territorial waters than Punic ones. We can reinforce and repair our fleets faster than the enemy and in these areas we can and will prevail.

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Originally Posted by FLYdude

Tell me, Antio, if you would perhaps prefer that I invade Africa by myself?

I care little for your arbitrary challenges or conditions. I intend to invade with a full consular army, and whatever other support forces necessary. I intend to ensure victory, not set limitations and gamble for it. I feel we are very lucky that you decided to become a diplomat and not a soldier.

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I do favour expansion, however, Rome must rest been conquests. An endless succession of wars will only serve to weaken the provinces, and incur the wrath of all the other powers.

Remember our neighbours the Samnites, did it not take several wars to defeat them? How many more wars will we have to fight to subdue Carthage, who is larger, richer, and more powerful than they.

I was appointed diplomat by Consul Quintus. I have been faithfully doing my duty in negotiating with Rome's neighbours.

You have done well, in your military command. However, do not be rash and seek to achieve more than you can.

Senators, I think it is time that we express our opinions once more on the three regions bordering us.

Africa
Cisalpine Gaul
Illyria-Greece

I, for one, think expansion ought to wait for 5 years. We can consolidate our gains, and improve the economy. Then, the next consul can lead Rome's legions to victory over her enemies!

I propose Motion #16

MOTION #16: This house moves that a senator be appointed historian of the republic, and record the our glorious history.

Senator Publius Pansa,

I have but one question I feel:

Will you, if finances allow, commit to build roads in our states? I feel that the benefits of roads are perhaps even greater than traders but coupled with traders we will have great benefits indeed.

Senators, at this point I now feel torn by loyalties. On one side I have my long standing friendship and support for Senator Tiberius Coruncanius, however, whilst I agree with virtually all of his manifesto I do not agree with his continued pledge to assault Afrika directly……and now Senator Publius Pansa has entered the field with a pledge virtually identical to my own thoughts of what should occur during the next Consular session.

I am dearly sorry Tiberius, friend, I would not ask you to compromise your vision for my behalf and I know you would not ask me to support someone who’s plans do not agree with what I feel is best for the Republic……..therefore, I must withdraw my support for Senator Tiberius Coruncanius and place my house banner behind Senator Publius Pansa’s seat.

My own feelings are that the Republic must consolidate and build upon the gains First Consul Quintus gave us, but we must also not just sit back and do nothing else lest we loose the upper hand against our greatest enemy Carthage.

Senator Publius Pansa has committed to building up to two more Legions and to strike fast and true against Cisapline Gaul and secure our borders against the Alps. I can only fully support this course of action as the best balance between Action and Consolidation.

The Republic will gain more territory and the Legions we will need against Carthage, whilst being able to financially support construction of some key buildings and infrastructure. I feel that adventures in “Island hopping” are folly until we have had time to build our navy sufficiently so that we can transport a full Legion within one flotilla to support any Islands we liberate, of course, at the same time we’d need such a Legion free to do this…again we do not have this at this time and will require time and coin to build one.

I believe that Senator Publius Pansa, will allow us this time, coin and action in his tenure. I also believe that it will be the task of the Consul who follows the next one to invade Afrika and I will support that venture at that point.

I would like the Senate to put a Motion forward authorising War against the Gauls but I fear the Scribes have exhausted all the room available for such a motion and it will have to be placed as an emergency motion after the elections……assuming Senator Publius Pansa gains the Senates support.

I must agree with Senators Verginius and Antio. The Carthaginian island colonies are lightly defended, and we should take advantage of this fact to deal them a blow. It is not a matter of economy, as Carthage will surely blockade their ports and send in soldiers. No, the victory in capturing these island colonies will be more subtle. We will gain a morale boost, having captured Carthaginian lands so easily and quickly. We will also earn a little bit of money from trade until the Phoenicans regroup their fleet and blockade the islands. Income can also be made from farmland and trading within the islands. We will also deny the Carthaginians this income, dealing their economy a blow. Finally, should the Carthaginians choose to send in a massive force to retake the islands, so be it. Their navy and armies will be out conquering the insignificant islands, while ours will be free to attack the Carthaginian heart at Africa, should the next consul choose to do so.

Of course, to manage to conquer their colonies while preparing an invasion force will require patience on the next consul's behalf, and, surely, our economy must be upgraded to finance the raising of the invasion force. When I use the term invasion force, I do not mean merely building a land army. I also propose to build a fleet as well, to contest Carthage's and divide their empire.

Of course, should the senate disagree to attack Africa, we could always strike Iberian Carthage instead. It would probably be lightly defended, and the Carthaginians in Iberia will most likely have their hands full fighting the Iberian barbarians, leaving their provinces vulnerable to Roman occupation. Again, this is to leave the Carthaginians weaker, so the eventual destruction of their Republic will be easier for us.

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Originally Posted by shifty157

For those candidates wishing to invade Gaul it may to your advantage to propose a motion for the senate to approve the declaration of war. Otherwise you may find yourself with little to do if you were to gain the position.

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Several such motions have already been proposed.
I think motion#16 is already being handled by the senate scribes and the senate librarian. Perhaps the senator Sextus Antio would like to withdraw his motion ?

I think not alienating all of our neighbors would be healthy for our economy.

Motion 17: This house mandates the Consul to train a second diplomat. That diplomat is to attempt to make peace with Greece, as well as try to get trade rights with them. This is to be attempted within the next Consul's reign.

I am willing to expand my

MOTION #8: An attempt should be made to make peace with the Greeks (requires sending a new diplomat).
Proposer: Lucius Amelius (DDW)
Seconder: Anon (by influence)

to include an offer of trade rights (as I intended to offer that anyway, as can be read in my manifesto), or GeneralHankerchief could withdraw his motion #17. I advise the senators to check the motions already proposed to see if they are not already proposed (post#1 of this thread, the vestibule). Also the last motion filed is #10.

May I respectfully request of the Senate what am I to do? I am in the plains of Parthia, and I fear that once you have hired another diplomat, you shall ignore me, and shall leave leave me to grow old and amongst barbarians.

MOTION #11: This house moves that we send Tiberius Coruncanius to Africa with one legion only, and that he must not return until he has taken the following settlements: Carthago, Utica, Hippo Regius, Hadrumentum, and Thapsus, and must have taken thm in 5 years. He may not receive reinforcements until he has been there for 3 full years.

If Tiberius Coruncanius agrees to this, I Sextus Antio, shall vote for him as consul. Tiberius Coruncanius has expressed his intention of invading Africa, and now this enables the Senate to endorse his invasion.

Senator Sextus Antio, fear not. I will endevour to make it my task to ensure you are given a new assignment.

However, it is the "lot" of a Roman Diplomat to have to put up with the Barbarians as they surround us......what are your feelings about a journey to Iberia?

[SENATE SPEAKER]: The deadline for submitting motions is 6pm today. However, our scribes can only arrange votes for 14 motions and we are almost at that now.

I have merged the two motions on peace with Greece.

Senator Antio, I have numbered your motion about a historian as eleven. If you do not wish to withdraw it, I will renumber your motion about Carthage to #12.

I have also received a motion from Quintus. He notes that an army may enter our territory and menace a town that we cannot defend. He therefore proposes that the First Consul be able to immediately intercept such invaders before they are able to strike us first. He is thinking particularly of the defences in the north, where our border legion could not reach Arretium in time to save it, but could intercept a Gaulish incursion before it reached that settlement.

MOTION #13: This house authorises the First Consul to declar war on any army entering our territory, if he deems it necessary for the defense of the Republic.
Proposer: Quintus (econ21)
Seconder: Anon (by influence)