Imperial Diet III

Outrageous! The Kaiser himself prefers to let innocent citizens of the Reich suffer and perish rather than to "offend" the Pope? By his own words he states that the defense of Jerusalem is more important than our own homelands! This is a clear example of how the Reich is rotting from the inside.

Any man who gives preference to the security of Outremer over the lands of Franconia, Swabia, Austria, and Bavaria is not worthy of calling himself a Roman. Any man who cares more for a foreign alliance than the welfare of his own people is not worthy of calling himself a Roman.

This is not a matter of risking excommunication from the Church. No Bavarian wishes to bring such harm to our people. This is a simple choice between causing the Pope some small displeasure or allowing misery and suffering for the commoners of Bavaria! The Kaiser so arrogantly says that the Milanese can "wait." Wait? Which Elector here would simply "wait" when his lands were being repeatedly devastated by invading armies, his vassals raped and killed, his merchant ships taken, and his ports blockaded? Any nobleman who would stand aside and "wait" to avoid the displeasure of an ally is not worthy of noble blood.

Kaiser, I fear that in the search for Chivalry you have forgotten what that word means. Chivalry means sacrifice of oneself for the betterment of one's people. Chivalry means doing what is right, even if it is difficult. Chivalry means upholding justice, no matter the cost!

Lothar Steffen is right! The Milanese have pestered us long enough. Bavaria is the economic base of the Reich, with the large cities of Milan and Genoa anchoring its finances. If it is threatened in the least, the threat must be destroyed, as the effects will be felt throughout the Empire.

Conrad Salier:

Young Lothar, I fear that you are not seeing the full scope of things.

First of all, I speak under the assumption that we will indeed finish Milan off once the Papal Bull expires.

It remains to be seen whether Milan can put together a significant invasion force in that period of time. The question of whether Milan is even capable of doing all the things that you say is unknown.

However, it is entirely known what will happen should we be excommunicated. It's happened twice before in our history. Rioting. Looting. Unrest. Thousands of deaths. This, my friend, is clear.

So, would you rather pick the scenario whose outcome is unknown but can easily be manipulated or controlled to serve our ends, or the one whose outcome is clear and terrible?

Herr Salier, I must testify that the Papal bull received by Chancellor Hans did not threaten excommunication for the Kaiser Henry ever, merely a loss of relations. A man so close to the Catholic Church as yourself knows that the Catholic Church has never been one to refuse a... small persuasion for them to change their mind - thus damaged relations could be repaired.

Conrad Salier:

One would hope, Lord von Kastilien, that not everyone in the Church follows that same unfortunate line of thinking that you speak of.

As for the bull not threatening excommunication, it does little to sway me. The Pope will still see it as us flouting his authority, and he is young. It could be the start of a slippery slope to excommunication.

Conrad, you are of course correct that it would be a great disservice to our people to subject them to the cruelty of living under an excommunicated Kaiser. As I said before, none of us in Bavaria wish to cause such a thing. However, Peter von Kastilien is correct. The order we have received from the Pope says nothing about excommunication, merely a loss of standing.

In any case, it is the Kaiser's entire attitude about the matter that disturbs me most. I emphasize again that by his own words the Kaiser has stated that the safety of Jerusalem is of more importance than that of our homelands! We are ruled by a man who cares more for kind words from the Pope than the welfare of his own people.

Jerusalem has considerable importance these years because the pope who resides there is German, just like every one of us here.
If he falls, a new pope will be elected. Considering that none of our cardinals are among the preferati and our enemies field two, it would be wise to keep the pope alive.

Relations may be repaired, empires rebuilt, but lives, once lost, are lost forever. The Milanese have plagued us for too long. As stated before, Bavaria is our economic base. If even Genoa alone was captured, or blockaded by a significant military fleet, the entire Reich, even the barren hells in the Levant, would feel the blow. Perhaps the desert sun of Outremer and the draughts of royal wine taken upon your throne have caused you to forget the many injustices Milan has brought upon us. Were the Papal bull for excommunication, I would take the diplomatic route and wait. However, that is not the case, and we must strike now!

Kaiser Henry: Lothar, you accuse the King of the Romans of not being worthy of being called a Roman. You slander me by saying I prefer to let innocent citizens of the Reich suffer and perish. You presume to lecture me on chivalry. And then you have the audacity to accuse me of arrogance.

I remind you that I preside over this body and I will not see the Kaiser's authority diminished by such disrespect. I will retire from the chamber now for the evening. If you wish to be allowed to remain when I return, you will withdraw those remarks and apologise.

Kaiser Henry, does not this Imperial Diet serve to allow all nobles, Lothar Steffen, Count of Florence included, to speak their minds and have their beliefs heard before all the Reich? Lothar Steffen is merely serving his duty to the Empire to ensure that all beliefs are heard! If he is removed from this Diet, then you will have to remove me too as I share is founded beliefs.

There is a difference between speaking your beliefs and thoughts and insulting other members, especially our most valued, personally.
I believe that line has been crossed.

Chancellor Hans, were you present when Lothar made his argument before this Diet? Whether or not his fiery oratory insulted the good Kaiser, he spoke the truth. Outremer is naught but a papal fief, a dishonor to the Reich! Were the Kingdom of Outremer more than a mere bodyguard for the Pope, but an extension of the Reich proper, it would hold just as much importance. However, I believe certain nobles are too occupied by their religious zeal and servitude to the Papacy to realize there are secular troubles that plague the Reich, that no one man may stop. If God wills that we do not strike at Milan, let him speak! I fear that the Pope is not a reliable proxy and his bull imposing restriction upon attacking Milan has not been decreed for the good of the faith, but rather for personal quarrel with the Reich.

Conrad Salier:

With all due respect gentlemen, you have insulted both the Kaiser and the Pope in one day, two men more powerful, important, and influential than you shall ever be. This is still a feudal system, and places must be learned.

Any offences against the Kaiser I withdraw. I do not take back, however, my stance in agreement with Lothar's beliefs. While I do not mean to insult the Kaiser, I do, however I disagree with his platform regarding Milan, Outremer, and the Pope.

Regarding the Holy See, I take back no insult. The Pope as an establishment is an insult to devout Christians, who do not need a proxy to find the Lord.

Even if we may have our differences with other catholic children, I remind you that we regardless are all God's children and must adhere to His commandments and His highest servant, the pope.
While the papal bull is indeed troubling, there is no question that I shall negotiate with his Holiness to find common ground in this matter, but I doubt that can be achieved with the rampant blasphemy that is present in this very diet, where we, the representatives of our people, convene.
I ask that all of you keep the discussions civil and not resort to personal insults, lest you wish to find yourself banished from the empire.

And lastly, I ask, no, demand, that you apologize to the emperor for your open and unworthy insults and pray a fortnight to repent your blasphemy against our most holy church.

Were you not listening, Chancellor Hans? I withdrew insult to the Kaiser! The issue is not whether or not we are all God's children. I deem it not blasphemy to repudiate the Pope. Regardless of whether or not I bow to the false idol, I am a Catholic, devout and pure. I believe that Jesus Christ is my savior, not the Pope.

Matthias looks around the Diet chamber with alarm:

Peace! Peace, my fellow Electors. I am sure that my Brother and Peter von Kastilien meant no true disrespect toward the Kaiser. As for the Pope, well, worse things have been said about his predecessors in the Diet. It saddens me that a former Imperial Cardinal would act in such a way against us.

Must we wait until the Milanese have seized an Imperial city before the Diet takes them seriously? We have shown "forbearance" and hesitation before, and all we gained from it was a betrayed peace and. . .

Matthias is interrupted by a coughing fit.

. . .and a curse upon my family.

We have tried leaving them alone, and they attacked us at Bern. We drove them to their Islands, thinking they had learned their lesson, and they raided our coast and lands. We made peace with them, thinking to make them a trading partner, and they declared war on us again! How many times must we allow this Corsairs to strike at us before we respond? It is obvious now that the Sicilians are incapable of even taking one of their Islands. This is something we have to do ourselves!

A lowering of our relations with the Pope is a different animal than excommunication. Our standing can be restored with florins and defending Jerusalem from the Egyptians. If the Diet wishes to offer Sardinia to Sicily, as approved before, so be it. But this Sword of Damocles hanging over our head must be removed.

Others here have spoken out against Outremer, thinking defending it weakens us here, or somehow it makes us more beholden to the Pope. I disagree. In fact, as a show of good faith, once the Milan matter is concluded, I will journey East to offer my service to King Salier. Bavaria does indeed support Outremer, it always has and always shall.

Thank you.

Blasphemy?! What have I said that is contrary to the teachings of Christ? Is it my desire to defend the innocent and the helpless from violence? I have as much respect for God as any man in the Reich and I challenge anyone to prove otherwise. If anyone here is guilty of blasphemy, it is the Kaiser for protecting the Milanese who are known to harbor witches and heretic priests! I have heard lately of a great plague that has broken out in Outremer. I wonder, is it simply due to the Kaiser's failure to provide public sanitation or is it a curse brought upon his new 'Kingdom' for following a man who keeps a Pagan as an adviser?

My Kaiser, you said that I accused the King of the Romans of not being worthy of being called a Roman. That is not so. What I said was that any man who gives preference to the security of Outremer over the homelands of the Reich, and any man who cares more for a foreign alliance than the welfare of his own people, is not worthy of calling himself a Roman. Since you have taken this as a personal insult, I must ask you my Kaiser, which is it that you believe to be descriptive of yourself?

As for diminishing your authority in the Diet, how can that happen if my statements are wrong? If what I say is such obvious 'slander,' unsubstantiated by truth, then surely every Elector will see through the falsehoods my words conceal and ignore them. No, the only way your authority could be diminished was if there was truth to what I say. So tell me, Kaiser, why do you truly believe that my statements undermine your authority?

I said before that a proper nobleman, a truly chivalrous servant of the Reich, will not allow harm to befall his own people, no matter the cost to himself. Were I to apologize for speaking the truth on this matter, I would be betraying my own vassals. I would be betraying the women and children who are killed by Milanese coastal raiders. I would be betraying the Christians souls who are corrupted and cursed by Milanese heretics. I would be betraying Christ himself for abandoning those in need.

No, you will not bribe me with 30 pieces of silver or with 30,000 florins. I will serve the good of the Reich, no matter the cost! There is no need to expel me from the Diet, for I go willingly. Simply being in the presence of one with so little regard for his own vassals makes my skin crawl. You can sit here in your gilded chair and play with words all you want. I will go forth and serve my people as best as I am able. You will be gone from this Earth soon enough and with luck we will then have an Emperor who cares for the Reich more than his own ambitions. God knows it has been too long since we have seen one of those.

*Lothar turns and leaves the Diet.*

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gibsonsg91921

Were you not listening, Chancellor Hans? I withdrew insult to the Kaiser! The issue is not whether or not we are all God's children. I deem it not blasphemy to repudiate the Pope. Regardless of whether or not I bow to the false idol, I am a Catholic, devout and pure. I believe that Jesus Christ is my savior, not the Pope.

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OOC: Only after I finished typing did your post pop up. As such, consider it to be before yours...

Truly these debates are ones that may never be solved. One's passions for religion and a powerless idol cannot be challenged by any man as good man of the Reich would be staunch and stick to his beliefs.

Blasphemy, cries Hans? Devotion, say I!

The Milan and Outremer debates, and secular issues with the Pope, however, are certain to be discussed in the next official Diet session.

Prinz Jobst slams his fist on a table, and stands, banging his fist.

Order, order!

Yes this is a place for a debate, but I will not have anything said about lords higher then your rank, remember your place amonsgt the rank.

Sometimes I forget some of you are Catholic. If you think the Pope is not worthy of living on earth, then you are no catholic, he was appointed by majority of others.

Jobst bangs his fist on the table


As for the Kaiser, he is the ruler of this Empire, and trust me, you do not want to bad mouth the Kaiser, or the Pope for that matter.

As it has been said, stop bad mouthing both, or I shall remove you BY FORCE!

Jobst sits

Ansehelm marches into the Diet, looking rather cross

Right, now I've had it.
Lothar go and play somewhere else. I still remember your tricks, and they may be there because you're still in your teen years, but the Diet is no place to play. So take your little Blood Order out of here and go and annoy some Milanese in future.
Same goes for you little brother, go back to Thorn, from the three of us you are by far the best commander.

There are more important matters than the Milanese.
The Hungarians, the Poles and the Russians cause far more problems. Next to that we have the Danes who aren't weak. The French, who even now have a big army in the middle of the Reich. And once we defeat the French we will have the English and the men on the Iberian peninsula to worry about.

Lothar Steffen is barred from this place. He may freely return at any time if he sends me an apology. Or, as he says, I leave this earth. He still retains full voting rights, although presumably he will find it hard to propose an edict if he is still excluded. He may vent his spleen in the House of Bavaria assembly and he may continue to collect skulls on the battlefield, as seems to be his passion.

Peter von Kastilien, everyone is free to speak their views on the future of the Reich. But the Kaiser is your Head of State and keeps order in this place - he cannot be insulted here without consequence. I take no offence at your words which, while agreeing with Lothar on the future of the Reich, did not show contempt for the Kaiser.

*Recently arrived from the Bavarian Council*

I hear your points Lord Elector of Franconia, there are powers among our enemies mightier then the Milanese. However, we all agree that northern Italy is of a vital importance to the Empire for it is such an important commercial center. As I have written to this Council in this past, the Empire cannot afford to let down the security and safety of this region. Yet for a few years now our observers have noticed that the pirates and Milanese fleet have been busier then ever. This has had a direct impact on our commercial activities and therefore reducing this all important income.

In the same time our Sicilians a l l i e s have signed a truce with the Milanese, directly inviting the tradesmen who where based in our cities to operate in theirs. This is not only taking tax income and commercial wealth away from us, but also more importantly, brings it to our enemies and so called allies.

For the sake of the Empire and to be able to pay for the very expensive Kingdom of Outremer, I hope you understand the importance to secure this region and eliminate the Milanese threat.

Gerhard Steffen walks into the diet, the transcripts of last night's 'discussion' fresh in his mind. An aide is waiting for him at the enterance to the Diet.

'Sir, did you hear the news?'

'What has Lothar done now?'

'The Kaiser has made it Official, he is barred from the diet'

'Wonderful' Gerhard responds flatly, Perhaps I will take up Conrad's offer...

Gerhard Steffen, takes his place and addresses the Diet

While the Swabians complain that they have 'only taken Paris' under Hans' Chancellorship, us Bavarians haven't had the privledge of expanding the Riech since Otto Von Kassel was Chancellor More than 40 years ago.

I personally went to end the Milanese threat under Henery, and suffer to this day becuase the most foul being's on Corsica. They convinced us that peace was the best way foreward, and I left, taking sickness and blight with me. And how do they thank us for making great sacrifice?
By blockadeing our ports and sending raiding parties into our lands.

Well, I for one am Sick and Tired of it, groveling to the pope after we have gifted him Jerusalem, TWICE.

Sitting idly by as our Italian neighbours form closer and closer relationships, waiting for the right moment. Where do you think they will march first? ROME, that's where, and while some members of the Diet would rather put on a bright green uniform than offend the pope, I believe that something must be done about it.

Unless any member of the Diet can find a compelling Legal reason for it not to happen, the Bavarian Household Army WILL march on the Milanese, and it WILL destroy every last one of them.

As for my eldest son; he is his own man, I admire his spirit and his vigor, but his rfirery rhetoric does little to advance his own position. I will talk with him, Conrad has asked for help in the east, maybe some travel will help his political skills.

Ansehelm, who is still in Rome, stands

I am not the most pious man of us all gentlemen. I go to church every sunday. I pray before dinner, but that's about it. I prefer dealing with more important matters.
However if we are warned by the Pope there are two things we can do. Do as he pleases or pretend as if we didn't hear him.
I always thought that the Bavarians were more pious than for example me, and even I would follow the Pope's command on a matter like this.

You can attack the Milanese as much as you want after this warning is over, but if you march on the Milanese cities I know one person who will stop support to Bavaria in the coming Diet, and it's not the Pope.

And if your son wants to he can come here up north, to fight some real barbarians. He'll find that life in Thorn is different from the warm south. In Thorn you need to work to keep alive.

LORDS!
Bavaria has the right to attack Milan without hindrance. According to Charter Amendment 5.1, the Duke has the right to use his household armies to attack an army, enemy, rebel, or neutral, if they have transgressed upon our lands. By blockading the port of Genoa, they HAVE transgressed upon our lands. Also, in Amendment 5.2, it is stated that a Duke can make war upon any faction entering his lands. Potentially, these decisions can be barred by Amendment 6.7 - an attack may not be made if it leads to excommunication without 2/3s vote. However, the papal bull did not threaten excommunication, only a mere loss of relations, which can be repaired most easily with a tithe from our treasury. Gentlemen, there is no more cause for debate.

Still, an attack will seriously damage our reputation.

And that means that the next warning the Pope gives will be about excommunication.
And Peter, I think you do want to attack the Poles without the Pope being in our way, don't you?

Bavaria should not attack, we've been trying to get in the Pope's favour with crusades and by giving them Durazzo, why shall we throw all that away, it's not worth. As the emperor has said: Milan is not worth it.

But brother - reputation can be repaired! Dead souls to not return from the netherworld, and the cruel Milanese have, time and time again, caused good men of the Reich to die or be crippled due to her foul witches and heretics.

Legally, there is no more cause to debate - if Gerhard Steffen wishes to make war upon the Milanese, there is nothing any man can do about it except try and persuade him otherwise.

Matthias Steffen made a good point - are we to wait until Milan lands a force and takes an Imperial city? Milan is too weak, you say, to do this. They are not worth it. They were worth it many years ago when the Duke of Bavaria left Corsica fruitless, bearing no reward for his troubles except a curse upon his family.

I say, let the ol' Pope be a little offended, so we can bring justice, justice in the making since Bavaria left Corsica. If you want to heal relations, give him Corsica once we take it! I'm sure a "holy man" like himself will have no problem clearing out the heresy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stig

Bavaria should not attack, we've been trying to get in the Pope's favour with crusades and by giving them Durazzo, why shall we throw all that away, it's not worth. As the emperor has said: Milan is not worth it.

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Then Give me something to Conquer!!!! I will not go down in history as the man that let Bavaria rot while Swabia, Austria and Franconia grew in power and Influance. In 1188 I took Marseille, It's been 46 years since then (OOC: and I've only aged 11 HAHA!!), the Size of the Riech has Doubled and Bavaria hasn't seen a new province in Europe since then. We've endured raid after riad from the Milanese and now you seek to deny us that which we have earned in blood. That is unacceptable to me.