Kingdoms SecuRom discussion - forum rules only

I'm sure Sega/CA are aware that most people are ignorant of SecuRom, either it's presence or potential. I fell into this category and would have bought this game except for my new found lack of alliegance to CA.
I feel quite lucky that the side effect of my falling out of love with the TW experience has had the side effect of me being able to make a more long term educated decision on potential spyware.
But make no mistake, most people that buy the game will have pestered their parents for it and know little and care even less about things like this. This is the market that is being aimed at and their money is just as good as ours. and probably more plentiful.
It is a business after all.

I don't see what the big deal is. If you're so obsessed with SecuRom why don't you just not buy the game and search the sky for UFOs instead

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Originally Posted by Whacker

A couple of points I'd like to throw in just for discussion's sake.

1. Regarding "erasing" files. Simply sending a file to the trash bin in Windows and then emptying it will not actually erase the file. Unless the system re-allocates the space the file was in, it will remain readable. Hence why you often see those "undelete" programs that can recover data. Also, even if you reformat your drive when you reinstall windows, the data is still there because the WinXP until does not do a 'zero-fill' and rewrite everything. Indeed I've reinstalled WinXP before on an old drive and been able to recover data from the previous installation. The best way to ensure data erasure is to wipe it using a utility designed to do so, which basically overwrites the sections on the drive the file existed on several times with random data strings. Even then, it's not 100% perfect, hence why professionals can often recover things that have even been written over before.

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Very interesting post. I thought that the full format and partition with the western digital-type installation disks (that often come with the HD's and have a DOS OS on the disk) wiped the HD but I guess not so.

Based on what you've said, it means that unless someone physically destroys a HD it's still a security risk (from a company perspective). What about passing the HD through an electromagnet? I ask because I have to use personal patient data in my work so I like to be aware of the risks.

Sorry about the threadjack

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Originally Posted by SirGrotius

I don't see what the big deal is. If you're so obsessed with SecuRom why don't you just not buy the game and search the sky for UFOs instead

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You dont see what the big deal is? Hmmm?

Many of us spend a great deal of time, effort, and money trying not to have our identities stolen by some SOB. Just yesterday I looked at paying a company $10/month to secure my ID. MS and the companies have spent billions of dollars trying to make the OS's more secure. But SEGA, in their arrogance, have decided that they will install this rubbish with a game! The irony is that these types of programs dont prevent game piracy but may enable ID theft.

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Originally Posted by SpencerH

Very interesting post. I thought that the full format and partition with the western digital-type installation disks (that often come with the HD's and have a DOS OS on the disk) wiped the HD but I guess not so.

Based on what you've said, it means that unless someone physically destroys a HD it's still a security risk (from a company perspective). What about passing the HD through an electromagnet? I ask because I have to use personal patient data in my work so I like to be aware of the risks.

Sorry about the threadjack

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No worries mate, this may be slightly offtopic but it's relevant to the discussion, seeing how this would relate to people's desires to ensure that data they no longer want on their computers is fully erased and destroyed.

First off, when you format a drive these days, you really aren't doing what's called a "low level format", where your software will physically go through and set up a drive's MBT and physically allocate clusters. Current 'formatting', in terms of what happens when you go through the Windows 2k/XP install process, is what's called a "reinitialization". Basically the software goes in and based on how you set up the drive, set up partitions, the MBT, and "zero" out all of the clusters by setting all files to deleted. Note this is not the same thing as a "zero-fill", in which the software literally goes through every byte on the drive and sets it as a 0 bit. Hence this is why even if you format your drive 100 times, someone can still go back in and possibly recover a good deal of data. Professional security firms and the government also have the technology available to physically dismantle the drive and to levels of recovery that are much, much deeper, depending on residual data. I don't have the exact details, but it's amazing what they can recover. This is why the US gov/mil have military spec requirements for erasing data. Google for this and you'll see what I'm talking about, the spec is freely available and there are numerous shareware and freeware programs out there that will perform these functions if you want. The key here in terms of the game as others have pointed out is actually deleting the offending DRM files off of one's system, which is another problem entirely.

As for the magnet issue, does it work? The answer is yes and no. Yes, it'll work on most removable magnetic media, such as floppy disks, old Zip disks, and the like. It will NOT work on a hard drive, but just for safety's sake and your own sanity, I wouldn't recommend trying it unless you have a spare pc, and HDD you don't want anymore, and time to kill. You can even run neomydium (sp?) magnets across the outer casing of an HDD, and it won't have any or minimal impact on the data inside, because the outer casing shields the platters inside. If you want to have some fun, when your next HDD fails, take it apart. Inside you'll find some of those neomydium magnets which are VERY strong, and fun to play with, just don't get your fingers pinched because they will cause nasty blood blisters.

Cheers!

Edit - The only surefire way to ensure data destruction!

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Originally Posted by Dutch_guy

Well to me it seems like this whole SecuRom thing has become more of a question of principle than anything else. At least, I haven't heard of any problems with it, and haven't experienced any myself.

:balloon2:

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It is simply a matter of principle. Some people need things to complain about, simple as that.

Have you seen game reviewers talking about this "problem"?
I haven't
Why not?
Because they are the professionals

This is all blown up, mostlikely by either frustrated hackers who didn't manage to get this game illegally or by people who want something to complain about because they don't like CA (believe me, there are enough of those).

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Originally Posted by Stig

It is simply a matter of principle. Some people need things to complain about, simple as that.

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Or it's a matter of ignorance, in terms of what people are putting on their system, or understanding what the software they are installing is really doing to their computers.

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Have you seen game reviewers talking about this "problem"?
I haven't

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And you never will, you can quote me on this. They may mention a thing or two in passing if it's really bad or obnoxious, or if they had problems with installing the game, but the odds are high it'll get edited out before it's published, because their salaries are paid for by the people advertising the games they are reviewing. You can also bet that no matter how bad of shape they are in or how rushed/shallow/lame, Hellgate London, Fallout 3, and Halo 3 are going to get at least 9.0 reviews on IGN and Gamespot when they are released, simply because of the dollars and hype that the publishers are throwing behind them and nothing else.

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Why not?
Because they are the professionals

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Professionals in terms of their job, yes. Professionals in terms of experience, not a chance. These people are simply gamers, some of who are not very bright at all, whose job is to write up their experiences on the games they play. They are no more observant than you or I, no more "experienced" than anyone who's been gaming for a few years. They simply get paid to play a game and write an article on it, just like we did in grade school with books.

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This is all blown up, mostlikely by either frustrated hackers who didn't manage to get this game illegally or by people who want something to complain about because they don't like CA (believe me, there are enough of those).

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No, this is people who get pissed because they realize what's happening to their systems, what they're being required to do or information they're required to provide in order to enjoy their goods. Dismissing it casually as you have is simply flaming and bordering on trolling. I for one refuse to purchase games that have DRM which requires me to "ask permission" any time I want to install and enjoy what I've rightfully purchased.

You are a fine example m8
Of the million buyers of a game 25 complain, so tell me, how big exactly is the problem? Not big hey


And I'm not ignorant, I just don't care. If this could kill my PC CA wouldn't have used it, they're not stupid.

As I said, about 1 in 50,000 buyers has a problem with this :drama3:

Nice statistics there, thanks for putting exactly how big this 'problem' is in perspective for all of us. It's pretty obvious at this point that you've got nothing to contribute to this thread, so why not go post elsewhere instead of trying to derail this one.

:cake:

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Originally Posted by Stig

This is all blown up, mostlikely by either frustrated hackers who didn't manage to get this game illegally or by people who want something to complain about because they don't like CA (believe me, there are enough of those).

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Indeed.
Mount & Blade installs things without you knowing and sometimes requires you to turn off your anti-virus software and yet people are fine with that but when SEGA does it then it's the end of the world.
But yeah it has been blown out of proportion a bit.
Sure it's the principal of the matter, we would love to have some control over what we install.
But I rather have Securom which provides SEGA with some comfort on my computer then Starforce which does damage on my computer.

That game still not finished is it?

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Originally Posted by Gaius Terentius Varro

That game still not finished is it?

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M&B ??
Not that I know off.

All that I know is that I got something called Mount&bladekeys in my reg despite I uninstalled it and I can't get rid of that entry.

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Originally Posted by Stig
And I'm not ignorant, I just don't care. 


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You proved the first part of this statement false by your other comments.

Just wondering... is the act of complaining about people complaining indicative of someone who is just looking for something to complain about, a hypocrite, or both?

Stig: "If this could kill my PC CA wouldn't have used it, they're not stupid."

Educate yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_So...ection_scandal

You know who owns SecuRom? Sony.

Big companies are stupid, and they do this all the time precisely because only a few people care enough about it to protest it. Yes, it's true, out of millions of customers only a few thousand get burned and you're welcome to roll the dice with your box, but I work on my computers and a .1% chance is still too high in my book.

Good luck. I sincerely hope you don't take a fall because you wouldn't take a stand.

:egypt:

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You know who owns SecuRom? Sony.

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Yeah so



Do you guys even know what Microsoft puts on your computer to start with?

Seriously this thread is done with and has never had a use, CA isn't going to remove it because 25 kids don't like it.

Didn't see this in the few pages I read, so I don't know if it had been metioned or not, but excessively draconian copy protection IS a major consumer issue. As WAS said in what I read, there is no copy protection out there that is unbeatable. Most games are available the illegal way quickly after release, usually within a week or two. By putting draconian copy protection on software, the only thing that is actually accomplished is hurting those of us who legitimately and legally buy said software.

I believe there was a class action lawsuit against Ubisoft over the StarForce drm software installed with silent hunter 3 (among others), citing failure to properly disclose the fact and implications of StarForce, along with the violation of 17 USC 117(a)(2) preventing a user from playing the game using a legitimate backup copy.

Link to Full Lawsuit

Apparently their EULA was found wanting by the court.

Ubisoft was forced by consumer pressure, prior to and culminating in the 5 million dollar lawsuit to change their copy protection.


Realistically, as much as I believe companies should go back to reasonable or no copy protection, due to potential issues with the draconian measures which have negative sideeffects on at least some consumers, while not even being successful at it's intended purpose of stopping hackers/crackers - I'm realistic enough to know that isn't going to happen anytime soon..

So Stig - companies can be brought around by consumer pressure. Remember - not all gamers are kids; consumers can and DO make a difference.

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Quote: You know who owns SecuRom? Sony.

Yeah so

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I know you are but what am I! Neener, neener, neener!

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Do you guys even know what Microsoft puts on your computer to start with?

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Please do tell, I'm on the edge of my seat!

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Seriously this thread is done with and has never had a use...

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I beg to differ... it presented a forum for you to display your infinite wisdom.

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Originally Posted by Stig

Yeah so



Do you guys even know what Microsoft puts on your computer to start with?

Seriously this thread is done with and has never had a use, CA isn't going to remove it because 25 kids don't like it.

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'So' Sony has used copy protection that did, in fact, kill people's computers, clearly refuting your previous claim. I'm well aware of what MS puts on my computers, but I suspect from the lack of substantive points from you that you are not.

As I said, good luck. This time, from what little information we have, it looks like SecuRom isn't hurting anyone yet, but it took months to catch Sony's prior mistake and years to correct it.

:egypt:

Go go Spence...I would love to see Ubisoft pay out the nose for the Starforce debacle.

CA may not be mostly to blame for this mess with Secu-rom, but they are partly to blame.

The game industry as a whole, needs some serious work. From crappy DRM/Security measures, to the ESRB rating system and places like Wal-Mart selling movies like Showgirls and games like Gears of War, but not stalking Manhunt...the whole industry is riddled with inconsistancies and the consumer is taken advantage of at every turn.

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Originally Posted by Whacker

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Thanks bro, that was a very informative post/s. So your recommendation is not to install it, if I understand correctly ?

I want to buy/play Kingdoms but I don't want any Securom on my PC.

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Originally Posted by Sinan

Thanks bro, that was a very informative post/s. So your recommendation is not to install it, if I understand correctly ?

I want to buy/play Kingdoms but I don't want any Securom on my PC.

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That is correct, if you don't want Securom on your PC, don't get/install Kingdoms. It may be possible to install the game and remove the DRM, but this is getting into territory that's forbidden to discuss by Org policy, and without researching I wouldn't know how to do it exactly.

Even in spite of the issues that the Kingdoms variant of Securom raises, the other thing to consider is that Securom is known to cause problems with other game copy protection mechanisms, and can cause certain discs using them to become unreadable by your drives. I don't have the link handy to those findings, if folks are curious they can google for it. So buyer beware, if you play other games, Securom may cause problems.

Thanks.

Man, this is teh l33t sux0rship.

Guys,

I have read through this whole thread and found it to be very interesting and highly informative. But, I am concerned that if we get into a flame war, then the mods are going to shut this thread down. This thread has served the useful purpose of educating us on this issue and providing a forum for healthy debate. I'd hate to see it locked. :no:

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Originally Posted by Stig

It is simply a matter of principle. Some people need things to complain about, simple as that.

Have you seen game reviewers talking about this "problem"?
I haven't
Why not?
Because they are the professionals

This is all blown up, mostlikely by either frustrated hackers who didn't manage to get this game illegally or by people who want something to complain about because they don't like CA (believe me, there are enough of those).

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First off, I love CA and the TW games. I'm not looking for anything to complain about. That said, I think the SecuROM issue is important.

You are entirely correct that it is a matter of principle. In reality, SecuROM as it exists today is unlikely to cause many problems on peoples' computers, unless you're talking about Bioshock (and those complaints I can verify from first-hand experience). Kingdoms will probably not cause any noticeable problems for anyone on this forum.

However, that does not mean that it is something that we shouldn't be concerned about. SecuROM is one of the foremost representatives of a seriously troublesome trend in the software industry. Many publishers believe that copyright laws have not provided sufficient protection for their products against software piracy. In response, they have begun using increasingly draconian copy protection systems to prevent the piracy from occurring in the first place.

What people need to understand is that the copy protection systems that have begun to emerge over the last few years are increasingly venturing into illegal territory. In an effort to prevent copyright violations of their own software, they are starting to infringe on the rights of the consumers themselves. This is essentially a digital version of vigilante justice, and something to be discouraged. SecuROM is not so much a problem in and of itself, as much as it is a representative of a growing trend that poses a very real and dramatic threat to the general public.

Software publishers needs to be told that they simply cannot resort to these kinds of actions as the proper means to protect their own property. Often times 'slippery slope' arguments are derided for the fallacious reliance upon a trend that does not emerge. That is not the case here. The trend exists, is well known, and it is increasing in severity exponentially. With the emergence of systems like Starforce and SecuROM, we are now facing a future where serious issues, like those encountered in Bioshock, will become commonplace. In order to prevent this, we must confront the issue now. If we wait until it is wide-spread, the damage will already have been done.

Personally, I believe that it will take something on the order of a class action lawsuit to bring about this change. I am surprised that one has not already been filed regarding the Bioshock issues, as I firmly believe that has legitimate grounds. Until then, the best we can do is to bring the matter to the public eye and increase awareness of the very real danger these systems pose to the future of consumer rights in the digital world.

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Originally Posted by TinCow

Software publishers needs to be told that they simply cannot resort to these kinds of actions as the proper means to protect their own property. Often times 'slippery slope' arguments are derided for the fallacious reliance upon a trend that does not emerge. That is not the case here. The trend exists, is well known, and it is increasing in severity exponentially. With the emergence of systems like Starforce and SecuROM, we are now facing a future where serious issues, like those encountered in Bioshock, will become commonplace. In order to prevent this, we must confront the issue now. If we wait until it is wide-spread, the damage will already have been done.

Personally, I believe that it will take something on the order of a class action lawsuit to bring about this change. I am surprised that one has not already been filed regarding the Bioshock issues, as I firmly believe that has legitimate grounds. Until then, the best we can do is to bring the matter to the public eye and increase awareness of the very real danger these systems pose to the future of consumer rights in the digital world.

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I agree wholeheartedly. Quoth Ben Franklin - Anyone who trades liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security.

The class action lawsuit referenced in my above post paved the way.

Also note Stardock, doing it a bit different from most companies:

Linky

Video Game Company That Does Everything "Wrong" Gets It Right
from the good-work dept
tk writes in to point out that video game company Stardock did everything "wrong" according to many who try to sell video games: "they use word of mouth marketing, has no copy protection (the serial is needed for updates) with a (relatively) cheap price and they listen to what users want." Despite all of these "mistakes," however, the results suggest that such an approach worked. As tk notes, "they have managed to gain the top spot in Walmart. Best Buy, EB, and Gamestop are ordering stocks above their sell-in orders." The source of this info is the company itself on their own forums, so some may question the accuracy of it. It would be nice to get confirmation (or proof that this is incorrect). There is also an interesting follow up to this story. Since the company decided not to use copy protection, some are claiming that they want the game to be "pirated." It also apparently upset employees of a Starforce, a company who doesn't exactly have the best reputation when it comes to providing copy protection for video games. Stardock is now accusing Starforce of pointing people to cracked copies, in an effort to hurt the software provider for not using copy protection. As the company itself points out: "Our software gets pirated. We don't like it but piracy is a fact of life. The question isn't about eliminating it, it's about reducing it and trying to make sure that people who would buy your product buy it instead of steal it. Our primary weapon to fight piracy is through rewarding customers through convenient, frequent, free updates. If you make it easy for users to buy and make full use of your product or service legitimately then we believe that you'll gain more users from that convenience than you'll lose from piracy."

Great thread, folks.

I was going to get Kingdoms, but having been messed around by Bioshock I'm having second thoughts.

I know Kingdoms doesn't have the install-count nonsense that Bioshock does, but I'm still very unhappy with SecureROM. It was a great game, but in order to play it I had to abandon any pretence at system security. Want an admin account to install the game and a normal user account to play it? Tough, that counts as two installs. And if you just suffered a dead hard disk, using up one of the installs they graciously permitted you to have when you shelled out hard cash for the game, you're shafted.

It's like the "You wouldn't steal a car... Movie piracy is theft" adverts that they kept putting at the start of DVDs. You can't skip them, so that's 30 seconds of your life wasted when you watch the DVD. And they're pointless because I've just bought the bloody thing. If I'd pirated the movie, I wouldn't have to watch the damn annoying advert. What a great way to annoy your paying customers and have no effect on the pirates.

Grumble, grumble. Bring back the ZX Spectru, Elite and the Lenslok.

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Originally Posted by foop

Great thread, folks.

It's like the "You wouldn't steal a car... Movie piracy is theft" adverts that they kept putting at the start of DVDs. You can't skip them, so that's 30 seconds of your life wasted when you watch the DVD. And they're pointless because I've just bought the bloody thing. If I'd pirated the movie, I wouldn't have to watch the damn annoying advert. What a great way to annoy your paying customers and have no effect on the pirates.

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haha

Not sure if you watch 'The IT Crowd' on Channel 4, but last week was hilarious in the beginning to do with that:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=MTbX1aMajow

@TinCow: Spot on post. Pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter exactly.

@TinCow Likewise. Nicely put. If we keep quiet now things will only get worse.

Years ago I bought a computer game (International Cricket Captain) which would not work on my PC due to copy protection issues, I contacted the company and they sent me a disc without the copy protection on, free of charge.

I bet that wouldn't happen these days, although they must have had a fair number of problems to do it in the first place.