EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

Including remainers?

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Yes, for facilitating.

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Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

Yes, for facilitating.

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Facilitating what?

What did Leave say?

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

Facilitating what?

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Passage of the Lisbon Treaty, without a Referendum, resulting in Brexit.

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Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

Passage of the Lisbon Treaty, without a Referendum, resulting in Brexit.

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You what? Are you going to campaign for our exit from NATO and all the other extra-national organisations which we're currently a part of as well? NATO governs our spending, requiring us to spend 2% of our budget on defence. Which is outrageous, as we should be able to control our spending however we like. The UN, ECHR, ICJ and so on govern what we can and cannot do to human beings. Which is outrageous, as we should be allowed to torture people if that is the will of our people. The ITLOS governs maritime law. Which is outrageous, as we should be allowed to privateer as part of our sovereign rights. It is a proud part of our history, after all. Hell, maybe we should take up slavery again. We never had a referendum to ban that.

We are part of the above groups without having had referendums to confirm our membership. Are you going to be consistent and apply your argument across the board?

No. you've been told time and again why you are 180 degrees wrong to equate supranational socio-economic political governance and limited intergovernmental treaty organization.

You just go quiet, wait a few weeks before trotting out the same cobblers again.

No!

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

You what? Are you going to campaign for our exit from NATO and all the other extra-national organisations which we're currently a part of as well? NATO governs our spending, requiring us to spend 2% of our budget on defence. Which is outrageous, as we should be able to control our spending however we like. The UN, ECHR, ICJ and so on govern what we can and cannot do to human beings. Which is outrageous, as we should be allowed to torture people if that is the will of our people. The ITLOS governs maritime law. Which is outrageous, as we should be allowed to privateer as part of our sovereign rights. It is a proud part of our history, after all. Hell, maybe we should take up slavery again. We never had a referendum to ban that.

We are part of the above groups without having had referendums to confirm our membership. Are you going to be consistent and apply your argument across the board?

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You do become very tiresome with the same old, tired, and wilfully incorrect statements.

NATO doesn't govern our spending. Hence why most members do not meet the 2% target.
The UK has a veto at the UN - and generally doesn't govern what anyone can do. Fun fact - although it covers almost all the countries in the world, it only recognises 6 languages. The EU has the overhead of 27.

Please drop the whataboutism - which in most cases isn't even factually accurate.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

You what? Are you going to campaign for our exit from NATO and all the other extra-national organisations which we're currently a part of as well? NATO governs our spending, requiring us to spend 2% of our budget on defence. Which is outrageous, as we should be able to control our spending however we like. The UN, ECHR, ICJ and so on govern what we can and cannot do to human beings. Which is outrageous, as we should be allowed to torture people if that is the will of our people. The ITLOS governs maritime law. Which is outrageous, as we should be allowed to privateer as part of our sovereign rights. It is a proud part of our history, after all. Hell, maybe we should take up slavery again. We never had a referendum to ban that.

We are part of the above groups without having had referendums to confirm our membership. Are you going to be consistent and apply your argument across the board?

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Stop it, just stop it.

ACIN is right. This has gone from a thread talking about Brexit to a thread where we have to bat away the same arguments from you week after week.

I've given you at least five breakdowns of why the passage of the Lisbon Treaty was generally a bad thing but here's the nub - the Lisbon Treaty created the exit-limbo we are living in. Article 50 envisages a two-year withdrawal period and uses it as a stick to beat the withdrawing country with.

Meanwhile, the PM has been warned that up to 60 hard-line Brexitieers will vote down the deal even without the backstop. According to the Telegraph.

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Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

Stop it, just stop it.

ACIN is right. This has gone from a thread talking about Brexit to a thread where we have to bat away the same arguments from you week after week.

I've given you at least five breakdowns of why the passage of the Lisbon Treaty was generally a bad thing but here's the nub - the Lisbon Treaty created the exit-limbo we are living in. Article 50 envisages a two-year withdrawal period and uses it as a stick to beat the withdrawing country with.

Meanwhile, the PM has been warned that up to 60 hard-line Brexitieers will vote down the deal even without the backstop. According to the Telegraph.

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Wasn't article 50 written by a Brit?

Edit: I've accepted we're going to go out on no deal. I just want Brexiteers to accept their responsibility for causing this, and accept responsibility for the consequences.

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

Wasn't article 50 written by a Brit?

Edit: I've accepted we're going to go out on no deal. I just want Brexiteers to accept their responsibility for causing this, and accept responsibility for the consequences.

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Was it?

Do you think he voted Remain?

That would mean a Remainer was LITERALLY responsible for Brexit.

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Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

Was it?

Do you think he voted Remain?

That would mean a Remainer was LITERALLY responsible for Brexit.

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Yes, it was Lord Kerr.

There was an interview he did about it. Shot himself in the foot as Article 50 was a way to get dictators out of the EU and never expected a western democracy to go and do it themselves.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/110...-UK-latest/amp

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Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

Was it?

Do you think he voted Remain?

That would mean a Remainer was LITERALLY responsible for Brexit.

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So Leavers would bear no responsibility for voting for it despite knowing the rules and consequences?

What responsibility do you bear for tacitly approving of unneccessary and wholly toxic acts of political integration, without which this situation may never have arisen?

i.e. a labour government throwing away Major's opt out from the social chapter.

if you sat there thinking “im cool with that, we're all EUropeans now in Blair's cool britannia” without ever pausing to consider the poisonous effect on a polity skeptical of political union, then you too are culpable for the no vote.

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

So Leavers would bear no responsibility for voting for it despite knowing the rules and consequences?

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It is the EU, not the UK, which has been refusing to negotiate since December when it became clear the Withdrawal Agreement would not pass. Throughout the negotiations the EU has treated the UK as an uncooperative EU member whilst describing us as a "Third Party" with the assumption that we will eventually fall into line for the good of the EU. Given that Britain voted to leave the EU this is patently absurd - Parliament must do what is in the interests of the British people as directed by those same people.

We had a referendum, the instruction was to leave the EU (by a greater margin than the referendum in which France agreed to the creation of the EU) ans so the Government and Parliament is trying to leave. however, the Backstop is obviously not in the British interest as it is and the EU will not compromise, so we cannot reach agreement.

This is a thing that sometimes happen, Pan, countries just don't reach agreement. Despite Myths to the contrary the EU is not a literal machine, it could bend but its political masters have instructed it not to. At this point that inflexibility has hardened the position of the governing party to the extent that No Deal is now almost the only foreseeable outcome.

Why is this?

I would say a failure of diplomacy on BOTH sides for which our Government is partly responsible.

Trying to read that responsibility back onto the voters, though, isn't really going to wash. We didn't direct the UK or the EU to have these negotiating positions, we didn't instruct parliament to vote down the deal or Theresa May to fail to construct a deal that could pass parliament.

Blaming Leave voters for this is like blaming Labour Voters for the Lisbon Treaty - given that you're a Labour voter and this all leads back to Lisbon this really does raise the question of how culpable you really are.

After Brexit, Canada and the UK will become even closer friends

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Originally Posted by Dominic Raab, Foreign Secretary

Words such as friend and ally somehow fall short in describing the relationship between Britain and Canada. The ties that bind are so strong, the affinity between us so deep, that I prefer to think of our countries as different branches of the same family...

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Originally Posted by Canadian

If you think that Britain is a good friend of Canada take a look at the map of our West coast.
We are lucky that we are not landlocked there. The fact that the American border of Alaska goes as far as Queen Charlotte Islands landlockingh half of BC is the doing of our British "friends".
The only country Britain ever cared for, was Britain.
We would do well to focus on our relationship with the EU which really matters, and treat Britain as the largely irrelevant country it has become.

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Originally Posted by Canadian

Canada is friendly with almost every country, so that won't change. We will also be friendly with our trade partners in the EU, a much more important market for us. As well we look forward to warm relations to the independent Scotland and the Reunified Ireland.

The truth is England is smaller than it's ever been. That's not going to change. We'll remain friends, but it's not a growth market.

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Originally Posted by Canadian

So Raab wants the colonies to bail them out again. What then? Lecture the world about how they stood alone (again) with out help?

You made your bed, you get to sleep in it.

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Originally Posted by Canadian

Trying to get closer to a small, declining country with major racist overtones should be a non starter. Our future would be better served if we focused on tying ourselves closer to the EU rather than the YUK. The British are small minded people and still believe they can tell the world what to do. The reality is they have become a laughing stock. I came to Canada some 43 years ago and I am a proud Canadian.

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Originally Posted by Canadian

Well thanks for that Mr. Raab, but as a Canadian, do you know who I'd like to get closer to after Brexit? Me, I'd like to get a lot closer to Europe (including Scotland and the soon to be newly-reunited Ireland.) There is much more upside for us to strengthening that relationship than in working to help whatever remains of the self-destructive, deluded England of today, under the able management of crypto-fascists like Boris Johnson and yourself. So put me down as undecided on the merits of even accepting collect calls from the U.K, post-Brexit.

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Who is this chippy Canuck?

I can make jokes too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doPR-6X9h7c

With apologies to Husar, this sketch is about 25 years old - it encapsulates the British fear of German hegemony over Europe - and also British paranoia that inside every German is a Gestapo Officer trying to get out.

Canadian exports by country: https://tradingeconomics.com/canada/exports-by-country

It's not a surprise to see that, overall, the rest of the EU represents a larger export market than the UK, but the UK itself is still Canada's third largest trade partner and accounts for roughly the same value in exports as the other major EU economies put together.

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Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

I can make jokes too:

With apologies to Husar, this sketch is about 25 years old - it encapsulates the British fear of German hegemony over Europe - and also British paranoia that inside every German is a Gestapo Officer trying to get out.

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I love Jurgen the German, and Harry Enfield is great!

So does anyone think Boris is actually trying to negotiate with the EU at all or push the other agenda? From what I see a no-deal Brexit is his endgame and then he'll just try and crisis manage all the negative effects afterward.

The EU won't, never intended to and never will "negotiate". You say what you'll be prepared to do and they'll say the level of access that will purchase. Why on earth would they demonstrate that a country can keep the good bits of the EU and ditch the overheads?

The recent elections have shown that there is a large number of people that voted for the exit parties. By exiting, he can at a stroke defang both these parties, leaving all the opposition parties to fight over the remain votes - with our first past the post system perhaps he'll even get some seats because the opposition is split against him.

~:smoking:

it may even be the case that for the above scenario to work that TM needed to honestly and publicly seek a deal and to fail brutally in the trying.

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

The EU won't, never intended to and never will "negotiate". You say what you'll be prepared to do and they'll say the level of access that will purchase. Why on earth would they demonstrate that a country can keep the good bits of the EU and ditch the overheads?

The recent elections have shown that there is a large number of people that voted for the exit parties. By exiting, he can at a stroke defang both these parties, leaving all the opposition parties to fight over the remain votes - with our first past the post system perhaps he'll even get some seats because the opposition is split against him.

~:smoking:

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Again, blaming the EU. The EU runs on rules. The rules were known before the referendum. Leave made a load of promises that were unachievable given these rules. After the result, the EU offered a number of solutions based on these rules depending on what the UK wanted to offer in return. Brexiteers are still demanding what is unachievable given these rules.

Leave has never wanted negotiation. It was clear shortly afterwards, when Leavers were making their modified demands (changing from moderate during the campaign to outrageous after), that Leavers only wanted to Leave on no deal and blame the EU for it. And so we see it play out. We're going to leave on no deal and Leavers are going to blame the EU for it. Leavers will never ever take responsibility for their own decision. It is always someone else's fault.

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

Again, blaming the EU. The EU runs on rules. The rules were known before the referendum. Leave made a load of promises that were unachievable given these rules. After the result, the EU offered a number of solutions based on these rules depending on what the UK wanted to offer in return. Brexiteers are still demanding what is unachievable given these rules.

Leave has never wanted negotiation. It was clear shortly afterwards, when Leavers were making their modified demands (changing from moderate during the campaign to outrageous after), that Leavers only wanted to Leave on no deal and blame the EU for it. And so we see it play out. We're going to leave on no deal and Leavers are going to blame the EU for it. Leavers will never ever take responsibility for their own decision. It is always someone else's fault.

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No, stating a fact. I never said they should negotiate and voted with the expectation of a no deal Brexit since, as I've repeatedly said, the EU is a political cartel and has to punish Leavers to stop others leaving.

You really only hear the voices echoing in your own head, don't you?

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

No, stating a fact. I never said they should negotiate and voted with the expectation of a no deal Brexit since, as I've repeatedly said, the EU is a political cartel and has to punish Leavers to stop others leaving.

You really only hear the voices echoing in your own head, don't you?

~:smoking:

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Can you point me to where Leave campaigners promised no deal during the campaign?

What Vote Leave leaders really said about no-deal Brexit

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Originally Posted by Boris Johnson

Johnson told the Treasury select committee in March 2016: “Our relationship with the EU is already very well developed. It doesn’t seem to me to be very hard … to do a free trade deal very rapidly indeed.”

Speaking at a Vote Leave event in March 2016, Johnson said: “I put it to you, all those who say that there would be barriers to trade with Europe if we were to do a Brexit, do you seriously believe that they would put up tariffs against UK produce of any kind, when they know how much they want to sell us their cake, their champagne, their cheese from France? It is totally and utterly absurd.”

In a Telegraph column published three days after the referendum result, Johnson said: “[We] who agreed with this majority verdict must accept that it was not entirely overwhelming.”

He sought to reassure remain voters that the UK would still have access to the single market: “EU citizens living in this country will have their rights fully protected, and the same goes for British citizens living in the EU. British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down,” he said. “The only change – and it will not come in any great rush – is that the UK will extricate itself from the EU’s extraordinary and opaque system of legislation.”

Johnson, then foreign secretary, told the House of Commons in July 2017: “There is no plan for no deal because we are going to get a great deal.”

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If you justify no deal by saying that you voted in the expectation of no deal, despite no politician having promised no deal during the campaign, and only bringing about these expectations after the result, what else are you going to say you expected? What other changes to society are you going to say you voted in expectation of, despite there being no evidence of it being promised during the campaign?

For crying out loud No Deal is Brexit. End of.

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Originally Posted by InsaneApache

For crying out loud No Deal is Brexit. End of.

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The campaigners said otherwise during the campaign. Show instances from the campaign where Leave campaigners said that Brexit means leaving with no deal. I've seen plenty of instances where they promised otherwise. Can you show any where they promised no deal?

Do you think that Brexit should be judged on whether or not the NHS gets an extra 350 million per week? Unlike no deal, this was something that the Leave campaign specifically promised.

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

The campaigners said otherwise during the campaign. Show instances from the campaign where Leave campaigners said that Brexit means leaving with no deal. I've seen plenty of instances where they promised otherwise. Can you show any where they promised no deal?

Do you think that Brexit should be judged on whether or not the NHS gets an extra 350 million per week? Unlike no deal, this was something that the Leave campaign specifically promised.

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This is a recurring theme for you throughout the thread. I hereby stipulate that pro "leave" politicos were mostly on a "paint a rosier picture than really likely because I don't really understand the nuances" all the way down through "lie through my teeth to get us out of the EU an hope that the dust settles without me being called to account" spectrum.

There will be no 'deal.' The UK will separate from the EU with all that that entails. Your leadership is hanging it's hat on that referendum that broke 52-48 against despite the pundits predicting the virtual opposite.

So, are you going to the barricades to preserve your membership in a larger Europe or not.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

This is a recurring theme for you throughout the thread. I hereby stipulate that pro "leave" politicos were mostly on a "paint a rosier picture than really likely because I don't really understand the nuances" all the way down through "lie through my teeth to get us out of the EU an hope that the dust settles without me being called to account" spectrum.

There will be no 'deal.' The UK will separate from the EU with all that that entails. Your leadership is hanging it's hat on that referendum that broke 52-48 against despite the pundits predicting the virtual opposite.

So, are you going to the barricades to preserve your membership in a larger Europe or not.

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By taking to the barricades, do you mean will I be turning to the illegal, as Leave have done, to maintain my side of the argument?

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

By taking to the barricades, do you mean will I be turning to the illegal, as Leave have done, to maintain my side of the argument?

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Please show which court has stated this is "illegal"? I read this banded around more and more by people but as far as I recall there's no evidence to back this up. The courts even stated that Boris's lies are not illegal.

By the way, your next move is to move to saying things are "immoral". Much more vague and you can continue to regurgitate the same worn statements.

~:smoking: