Oh dear.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwedishFish
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Oh dear.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwedishFish
There are also accounts that the rebels attacked Georgian forces first. You speak like it is a well known fact that Georgia decided to shell the rebels for no apparent reason and Russia was the heroic savior who came to Georgia's aid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
I never said they forced to take citizenship. However, just because an area of sovereign country wants to become part of another country, doesn't them the right too. That would be like America absorbing half of Mexico but saying "Hey they wanted it so it's fine".Quote:
They gave citizenship to Ossetians, and the Ossetians wanted the citizenship and took the citizenship. Like someone else has said in this thread, unless you find evidence that they were forced to take citizenship at gunpoint, this is an invalid point.
They have had a ceasefire for quite some time now. Why now?Quote:
Because it's good to be prepared for a situation that can occur?
SureQuote:
Can I have a link about this "massing of forces" as well?
Quote:
Saakashvili said Russia had been massing troops on the border for months.
He said: 'They have been calling it training exercises, but they have not been concealing the fact that they are training these troops for use inside Georgia.
Notice the little laughing smilie at the end of my post.:yes:Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
The President said pretty much the same thing he had been saying. Russia needs to back down and return to the status quo. He also said that Russia has seriously harmed its standing in the world and its status in Europe and the U.S.
You mean just how NATO air strikes and bombing raids were limited to Kosovo only?Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
Judging by Churkin's speech in UN, I don't think that concerns them much.Quote:
Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
NATO was wrong to bomb Serbia and to meddle in Kosovo. What Russia is doing right now is just as wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
my post too was meant as a joke...Quote:
Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
Well, the initial BBC article in this thread said that Georgia's government launched an operation "aimed at securing the stability of the region" very shortly after a ceasefire had just been agreed to by Georgia and the rebels. The rebels and Georgia had already been fighting before the ceasefire, but Georgia broke the recent one. The Georgians also didn't shell "rebels" - they levelled a good portion of town, including hospitals and homes, and killed Russian soldiers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kush
Well, for one thing, there is a massive amount of Russian citizens. Secondly, Russia is supporting a breakaway province. Former Yugoslavia, anyone? Thirdly, Russian soldiers were killed in the initial Georgian strike, making that strike a military attack against the Russian Federation as well as an attack against Ossetia.Quote:
I never said they forced to take citizenship. However, just because an area of sovereign country wants to become part of another country, doesn't them the right too. That would be like America absorbing half of Mexico but saying "Hey they wanted it so it's fine".
Well, Georgia broke the ceasefire. Ask them.Quote:
They have had a ceasefire for quite some time now. Why now?
A statement by the Georgian President (obviously an unbiased source) saying that Russians were massing troops and conducting military exercises? Alright...Quote:
That article does reveal something very interesting, however. Check this out (it's a map featured in the article): http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/...x293_popup.jpg
And I quote:
This being the initial attack, carried out by Georgia, which left 12 Russian soldiers dead.Quote:
1. Georgian force backed by warplanes surround and shell Tshkinvali, the capital of the breakaway province. Many hundreds of civilians reported killed, homes burnt, a hospital destroyed, and 12 Russian peacekeepers dead.
You expect the Russians to be fair and balanced?
Like Fox News right?Quote:
You expect the Russians to be fair and balanced?
Hardly. You expect anyone to be fair and balanced about current events?Quote:
Originally Posted by SwedishFish
EMFM - here is an article that postulates that Russia has been doing a mass build up and military maneuvers over the past month in the Caucasus.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
No, they're fake and biased :2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshal Murat
That is an interesting article, and I acknowledge that an arms buildup in the region is a good possibility in why Russia's response was so quick, but at the same time, Georgia launched the operation beginning this, and killed twelve Russian soldiers in the process.Quote:
Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
Okay - so you admit that Russia was most likely preparing for an invasion. They couldn't have been preparing to defend against an invasion into Russia, so what would the alternative reason be? Now - couple this fact with the idea that Russian forces and South Ossetians were firing at Georgian forces before the eruption of conflict, therefore breaking the conditions of the ceasefire and the entire reason that Russia was in South Ossetia in the first place. This was clearly a planned assault and regime change on a sovereign country rather than some sort of "reaction". I'm suprised that you've bought into that argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
I think Russia's longer-term plans since positioning peacekeepers have been made clear, if they were ever in any doubt.
I just remembered how terrible Gordon Brown has been through all of this so far. I miss Tony Blair.
Well, you might want to read up on it. The Georgians are claiming the shelling (yes they shelled), air bombardment, and troop movements were in response to attacks from the rebels upon Georgian citizens. It's not very clear cut who started the fighting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
Actually they are Georgian citizens that Russia calls Russian citizens due to them obtaining Russian passports.sQuote:
Well, for one thing, there is a massive amount of Russian citizens.
Do elaborate. South Ossetia is part of Georgia. It needs to work with the Georgians if it wants independence.Quote:
Secondly, Russia is supporting a breakaway province. Former Yugoslavia, anyone?
Refer to the above.Quote:
Thirdly, Russian soldiers were killed in the initial Georgian strike, making that strike a military attack against the Russian Federation as well as an attack against Ossetia.
Quote:
Well, Georgia broke the ceasefire. Ask them.
That's disputed.
Tuff did a good job of reinforcing that argument.Quote:
A statement by the Georgian President (obviously an unbiased source) saying that Russians were massing troops and conducting military exercises? Alright...
Quote:
This being the initial attack, carried out by Georgia, which left 12 Russian soldiers dead.
Still doesn't mean it's true.
Yeah pretty much. I can't believe how some people seem to the think the only reason Russia is doing this is to save "Russian Citizens". Putin could probably give two ***** about what happens to these people.Quote:
Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
Does anyone possibly think this has something to do with Georgia trying to join Nato, Georgia's pro western government, or the massive oil pipeline to the west which avoids Russia?
D. All of the aboveQuote:
Originally Posted by Kush
From the reports, it looks like most of Tskhinvali is destroyed. Medvedev used the term "genocide" and already experts are dispatched to collect evidence to be sent to UN according to him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
There is no chance that this kind of a Georgian offensive could be mounted without someone in Russia or in South Ossetia noticing that things may be heating up. From the examples in former Yugoslavia you could see that it was generally known when an invasion is being prepared. Not the actual timing or the ferocity of the attack (that was subject to change, because not only military but political issues too had to be addressed, within the country and abroad) but it couldn't go unnoticed that something was cooking up.Quote:
Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
And if Georgian troops were under attack there would be no need for Saakashvili to admit that Georgian forces broke the ceasefire. If they were under attack, then the other side broke the ceasefire and they were only responding.
I've said already in this thread that Russia is doing this to expand their own interests in the region. So is Georgia. Wonderful. However, Russia responded after twelve peacekeepers (oh, and the Georgian government agreed to have them there along with Georgian and Ossetian forces, which it later withdrew) were killed by Georgian shelling. Preliminary reports quoted the Georgian leadership as saying that it had attacked Ossetia - first. It seems Georgia has now changed its tone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kush
Too much madness :hide:
Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
Ah, very good, I like you, keep up the good work and welcome to the Backroom.:2thumbsup:
The question for the million: Who broke the ceasefire? Were there a ceasefire?
Don't tempt me. :sneaky:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mailman653
Which the million question? There was a ceasefire, that's all I can say for sure.Quote:
The question for the million: Who broke the ceasefire? Were there a ceasefire?
That one. At a glance, looks like Georgia did. But now turns that Russia did. So, who did it?Quote:
Who broke the ceasefire?
Unless I'm mistaken thanks to the bald sickness.
Who fired the first shot is irrelevant. Who broke the ceasefire is irrelevant. What the situation was in South Ossetia prior to the outbreak of hostilities is irrelevant.
What is relevant is that Russia feels threatened by NATO's continual encroachment on what it believes to be its backyard and traditional geopolitical sphere of influence. Most of the nations that once belonged to the Soviet Union bear an incredible amount of hatred, loathing and disgust with all things Russian. Russia's sordid past with these nations led directly to the blazingly fast expansion of NATO's expansion into these regions with its only recourse being diplomatic protests and openly blaming the West and NATO for making a mess of things. Let's also not forget the expansion of the EU to include former Warsaw Pact members. Russia not only lost the security of her traditional satellite states but was also cast as an impotent, toothless dog whose bark is worse than its bite.
Poland, one of Russia's major historical satellite states/vassals became a member of NATO in 1999. Latvia, Lithuania & Estonia, nations which also shared this infamous classification with Poland, just joined NATO in 2004. The old Soviet hardliners in modern Russia who fondly recall their nation's glory days of empire must seething with hatred as they watch these nations run towards the West with open arms.
So how does Georgia come into play? Look no further than April of this year...
The fact is that in April of this very year NATO announced Georgia and the Ukraine would become full fledged members of NATO.
http://www.summitbucharest.ro/en/doc_201.html
Simple arithmetic will tell you that of the two nations due to join NATO in the near future Georgia is by far the weaker of the two. The variables at play in Georgia bear an eery similarity to those in the late 30s. South Ossetia has turned into a 21st century version of the Sudetenland, both of which were used as a casus belli to open up a larger conflict leading ultimately to acquisition. I firmly believe that beyond South Ossetia and the oil pipeline Russia's modus operandi is to prevent Georgia it from joining NATO by forcibly re-introducing it into its political sphere of influence. Regime change? Possibly. More like Russia will look to force Georgia to sign an iron clad agreement/treaty that will forever deny it entrance into NATO (along with the fringe benefits that only a fat pipeline can bring).Quote:
23. NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO. Both nations have made valuable contributions to Alliance operations. We welcome the democratic reforms in Ukraine and Georgia and look forward to free and fair parliamentary elections in Georgia in May. MAP is the next step for Ukraine and Georgia on their direct way to membership. Today we make clear that we support these countries’ applications for MAP. Therefore we will now begin a period of intensive engagement with both at a high political level to address the questions still outstanding pertaining to their MAP applications. We have asked Foreign Ministers to make a first assessment of progress at their December 2008 meeting. Foreign Ministers have the authority to decide on the MAP applications of Ukraine and Georgia.
Given the speed and scope of this invasion it is painfully clear that Russia had been planning this for some time. They were supplying South Ossetian rebels with arms and were possibly encouraging them to get a little aggressive in the hopes that Georgia would eventually send in its military to clean things up. Factor in the fact that the US, Britain and token European forces are still tied up in Iraq & Afghanistan and the world's attention is currently being directed at the Olympic games. The timing could not be better, Russia simply had to make a move now while the bulk of the world's attention is elsewhere. The fact that a major oil pipeline that supplies the west runs through Georgia is icing on the cake.
Last but not least keep in mind that after suffering a long line of humiliations from disasters like the Kursk, the terrorist bombings and hostage incidents of the Moscow theater and Beslan as well as the utter mauling Russia received in Chechnya you can understand how they might be looking for a little glory to dull the pain.
So if Russia is so keen on stopping the expansion of NATO then what about the Ukraine? Perhaps the Ukraine is next on the list, who knows? Russia's bullying of Georgia is clearly rubbing the Ukraine the wrong way and as someone already linked, it is threatening to cut off the Russian Navy's access to its ports in the Crimea. Russia may find it easy to bully a small, isolated nation like Georgia with ease but the Ukraine, with the second largest military in Europe and with possible allies in neighbors like Poland and the Baltic states to the north, is an entirely different beast. Afghanistan and Chechnya proved Russia's military is a paper tiger that is easily torn up with a modest sized amount of determination. If Putin and Russia's hardliners are smart they'll limit their actions to Georgia.
Spino, great post all-around.
However, I think the current invasion of Georgia has some small benefits.
1. We see Russian armored units in action against a 'conventional' foe, whose troops have ostensibly been trained along Western lines. While Georgian troops may be reservists, it is a foe that isn't hiding behind civilians or using terrorist means to achieve political goals. This is the new Russian army, and may not rely so heavily on political troops or rigid doctrine that one saw in the former U.S.S.R. army formations.
Afghanistan operated with the old Russian army, but what about Chechnya? My 'modern' history isn't so good, so did Russia suppress them with conventional Red Army troops or the new forces?Quote:
Afghanistan and Chechnya proved Russia's military is a paper tiger that is easily torn up with a modest sized amount of determination.