Will Obamacare succeed where term limits failed?

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Originally Posted by rvg

Exactly. They used my money before and now they're using more of my money. It's extra taxation disguised as insurance.

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It's necessary to prevent China from conquering the USA. There are times when everybody has to give a bit for the glory of the nation and 150$ is still so little compared to those who dedicate their lives to defend the nation.

China has already conquered the USA... In the meantime $150 buys more red wine than I can drink in a month.

Why does that 'China owns the US' bit still get so much airing? They don't own much more than a tenth of our debt. For the moment, this debt is a bigger liability to China than it is to the US, in terms of geopolitical constraint.

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

Why does that 'China owns the US' bit still get so much airing? They don't own much more than a tenth of our debt. For the moment, this debt is a bigger liability to China than it is to the US, in terms of geopolitical constraint.

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Don't confuse us with facts. We're 'Murica!

https://i.imgur.com/BuHFf47.jpg

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

Why does that 'China owns the US' bit still get so much airing? They don't own much more than a tenth of our debt. For the moment, this debt is a bigger liability to China than it is to the US, in terms of geopolitical constraint.

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I think if you default they can foreclose your white house.

So, "If you like your insurance, you can keep it." has already been proven a lie.

Next up? "If you like your doctor you can keep your doctor."

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Originally Posted by WaPo

As Americans have begun shopping for health plans on the insurance exchanges, they are discovering that insurers are restricting their choice of doctors and hospitals in order to keep costs low, and that many of the plans exclude top-rated hospitals.

The Obama administration made it a priority to keep down the cost of insurance on the exchanges, the online marketplaces that are central to the Affordable Care Act. But one way that insurers have been able to offer lower rates is by creating networks that are far smaller than what most Americans are accustomed to.

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The result, some argue, is a two-tiered system of health care: Many of the people who buy health plans on the exchanges have fewer hospitals and doctors to choose from than those with coverage through their employers.

A number of the nation’s top hospitals — including the Mayo Clinic in Minnesota, Cedars-Sinai in Los Angeles, and children’s hospitals in Seattle, Houston and St. Louis — are cut out of most plans sold on the exchange.

In most cases, the decision was about the cost of care

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So on one hand, we have the Obamacare insurance death spiral, on the other hand we have the Obamacare provider death spiral. There's already a shortage of general practitioners in the country. Obamacare provides restricted access to an already small pool and enforces discount rates that will cause even more providers to drop out of the system. This will, in turn, channel more patients to the existing providers who will also leave the exchanges as discounted rates take an ever larger share of their practices.

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Originally Posted by McClatchy

Many doctors are disturbed that they’ll be paid less – often a lot less – to care for the millions of patients who are projected to buy coverage through the health law’s new insurance marketplaces.

Some have complained to medical associations – including those in Texas, California, Georgia, Connecticut and New York – saying the discounted rates could lead to a two-tiered system in which fewer doctors participate, perhaps making it harder for consumers to get the care they need.

“As it is, there is a shortage of primary care physicians in the country, and they don’t have enough time to see all the patients who are calling them,” said Peter Cunningham, a senior fellow at the nonpartisan Center for Studying Health System Change in Washington.

If providers are paid less, he said, “Are (enrollees) going to have difficulty getting physicians to accept them as patients?”

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Irredentism for Cuba, then. :shrug:

I know one of my doctors will soon no longer be able to see me; AFAIK the new position he's accepted at another hospital is contractually unable to accept any insurance, nor to authorize claims forms.

The thing about being cut out, is that those hospitals will have to cut the cost of care to more reasonable levels. Thus, this would bring down healthcare costs so they end up included in these plans. Isn't that what you want from the Free Market?

Doctor wages should be drastically cut anyway.

Pour the money into important things in life instead, like engineering.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

I disagree. A nation that spends most of its money on the health and happiness of its people is doing something right.

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So do I, thus we should spend our money on engineers instead of doctors ~;)

To make it simple: I would rather pay for the engineer who makes a safer car than pay a doc for stitching the driver after a crash.

Preventive care, not band-aids. The engineer will give you the former, the doctor will give you the latter. As for pain, death and suffering: we should learn again how to live with it.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Funny Xiahou mentions a shortage of GPs but not the fact that its a consequence of the market. Specialists just make buttloads more money, and medical school costs too much to ignore the difference.

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Because of the market? Perhaps, but not a free market.

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This is an area where strong government intervention paid for by the Tax Payer would be the most reliable solution. Don't go pretending like the right wants anything fixed.

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And yet, the government is making it worse... Weird, huh?

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Because of the market? Perhaps, but not a free market.

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So, like, a husband leaves his family for a few days to trade assorted goofs with the nearby homestead? That kind of free market? :rolleyes:

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And yet, the government is making it worse... Weird, huh?

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Favorite anti-government tactic: sabotage the government's function at every level and then complain about the dysfunctionality of reform-attempts.

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

Favorite anti-government tactic: sabotage the government's function at every level and then complain about the dysfunctionality of reform-attempts.

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Obama sabotaged his own signature legislation? That's called incompetence, not sabotage. :yes:

Spare me the Tinkerbell fallacy.

A worthwhile back-and-forth between Sully and Levin/Ponnuru about the future of healthcare, and what a Republican replacement might look like. It spans several articles and posts, so I'll just give you the last round:

On an Obamacare Alternative, NRO, Levin & Ponnuru

The GOP’s Answer To Obamacare?, The Dish, Sullivan

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Originally Posted by Lemur

A worthwhile back-and-forth between Sully and Levin/Ponnuru about the future of healthcare, and what a Republican replacement might look like. It spans several articles and posts, so I'll just give you the last round:

On an Obamacare Alternative, NRO, Levin & Ponnuru

The GOP’s Answer To Obamacare?, The Dish, Sullivan

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The GOP would have done better to have had this sort of thing out, front and center, long since. Saying "NO" without showcasing a viable alternative approach (even an approach that is diametrically opposed) raises too many hackles -- smacks of obstructionism for obstructionism's sake.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

I disagree. A nation that spends most of its money on the health and happiness of its people is doing something right.

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I prefer, as much as possible, for them to keep their own money and spend it as they choose.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Depends how they got it.

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Fraud and thievery should not be rewarded, I concur. I have spoken to such effect in other threads.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Fraud and thievery should not be rewarded, I concur. I have spoken to such effect in other threads.

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I suspect GC's definition of what constitutes thievery varies a good bit from yours. :yes:

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

I suspect GC's definition of what constitutes thievery varies a good bit from yours. :yes:

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A distinct possibility.

Well, just so you are aware, what the ACA is doing is assuring that all the smaller insurers will fail. Only Insurance companies with very deep pockets will be able to manage in the long run. Those Corporation with the deepest pockets will win in the end, making up the difference in market share.

In the end you have cut competition and left things to just a few large corporations.

Just like banking or the defense industry you will wind up with just a few mega businesses in the sector, setting the rules, and of course contributing to political campaigns so things stay the way they are.

Tell me how this is a good thing?

It's a good thing because it will make the insurance companies even worse providers, increasing the demand for reform which will make the obama's plan to push for universal healthcare in 2016 that much easier to implement. That in turn will be so badly planned that the idea of universal healthcare will be forever stained in the American consciousness and the government will be forced to give up on the idea. All this so that when the drug companies release the pathogen and infect the eastern seaboard there will be no one willing to risk their political careers to prevent the companies charging exuberant amounts for temporary cures and therefore make enough money for the republican/scientologist stock holders that they will be able to pay for the rebuilding of the lost city of Rhyleth which will awaken the great old one and doom the world to insanity, so sayeth the ruler of bathos.

Duh.

Politifact's Lie of the Year:

If you like your health care plan, you can keep it

There are some interesting developments today, with lots of implications ...

... but I'm going to ignore all of that, and indulge my Bad Political Music Fetish. I CAN'T HELP MYSELF. I see/hear horrible political music, and I light up like a Christmas tree.*

http://youtu.be/1GmY8KH03rM





* Although, for the record, I think Hillary 4 U and Me still stands as the greatest piece of Bad Political Music in my lifetime. Go ahead, try to prove me wrong.