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I must say I've been a wee bit sceptical of that one myself. Why would the AI only want to evaluate every few turns instead of every turn? All they would really need to do is establish a set of priorities for the AI to follow, and I can't imagine why these priorities would only be checked every few turns instead of every turn, or even more strangely, why it would be rechecked after every loadgame. It just doesn't make sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Celt
I am the one who asked that question about the test. I have stated elsewhere that Creative Assembly is either lying or has not done any testing on this issue. The closure of my thread has convinced me that they are lying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnight
But strangely enough, the mods have left this thread open: http://p223.ezboard.com/fshoguntotal...ID=24408.topic
How to win with a protectorate only strategy of saving and reloading then asking for protectorates and automatically receiving them each turn! It's pretty funny! I guess that since everyone is respectfully calling it a proper feature, the mods don't see the sarcasm there.
old celt: lol... trust me, they'll catch on sooner or later. in which case i'll have to update the link in my signature to point to the thread's new home in RnR and eventually the graveyard.
Because the "full eval" takes a long time, perhaps?Quote:
Originally Posted by screwtype
Or perhaps (like, IIRC, CTP1/2's AI -- which was scriptable and therefore examined in some details by the apolyton community), it is a bit "twitchy" (over sensitive to small changes in the input stimuli) which makes re-eval every turn prone to the AI continually changing its mind and never getting anywhere.
My guess:
1) persisting the AI state to the savegame was dropped/de-prioritised with "re-eval on load" considered an adequate workaround
2) re-eval on every turn was found to be too slow or too indecisive and changing to every Nth turn was considered an adequate workaround
3) nobody at CA put (1) and (2) together with "some people only have an hour to play" to realise that this would be a problem
4) it wasn't picked up at playtesting because they ran long sessions, and playtesting focusses on the RTS side and CTDs, not maintaining a challenge to a decent player in the campaign.
This is a blow by blow description of another "feature" that comes with the load/save siege feature.
And the Emu/Ostrich characteristics continue from our favourite damage control team..."CA".
You know I think they need a PR department reeeally badly at this point.
If they understood.Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieGiant
listening and understanding are entirely 2 different matters...
rite now the war is not in the game its btw us and them :duel:
I find it a bit hard to believe that a CPU running at 1000Mhz plus cannot crunch its way quickly through a priority list. Heck, if every single soldier in a battle can be tracked for multiple fields, I don't see how tracking a handful of enemy stacks on the campaign map could be such a big deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by mishad
I think I'd just describe that as poor programming.Quote:
Originally Posted by mishad
Hmmm it sounds feasible I guess. But I'm still sceptical as to how it could be so hard to get a few armies to behave logically from turn to turn. I can't imagine that many events that might cause an army to break off a siege, for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by mishad
And let's face it, it's not as though these armies are behaving with much intelligence now, even without reload breaks. Often they just seem to wander around aimlessly anyway.
The discussion thread "Loadgame-AI Bug" at .com has been deleted. It appears that all the loadgame discussion threads were deleted. Now you know how CA is going to deal with gameplay problems that they have no intention of correcting.
They were moved out of Rants and Raves and into the Graveyard. They are still locked, of course.
Puzz3D
You see they discovered the next best thing to removing the Loadgame AI *featurer*, i.e., to remove all the Loadgame AI bug threads/posts/rants etc.
BTW, most of the thread can be found in the graveyard now, where they shall remain as a sad memory of the support the community got from CA on this *feature*.
For further confirmation that CA and the mods still don't understand what the bug/issue actually is, the thread discussing the protectorate aspect of this issue is very much alive and well in the main forum, despite it being just as much if not more unpleasant than many of the buried loadgame threads. Does anyone have any ideas what we can do or say to make the point clearer, 'cause they still aren't getting it. Maybe the Ludus Magna tests will help.
To not fix it may be a breach of implied warranty.
Forum Total War!Quote:
Originally Posted by slackker
Ok, I mentioned this in the now deleted rant-n-rave over at the com,
if we presume Shogun is not lying or deceived, and we have no reason to believe he is, then:
1) the pc is re-evaluating on reload
2) the re-evaluation is conservative/negative/ignorant.
3) therefor the AI is hamstrung every reload.
4) if you continue play without a reload it doesn't do this,
and the AI works pretty much OK.
Therefore we need a mini-patch to stop the re-evaluation code running. It doesn't do the AI any good so don't let it happen!
There must be a flag set on reload that is later checked on the AI turn that says to run the re-evaluate code. Either don't set this flag or just remove the sub-routine. Mods could do this by editing the source, but this would be extremely difficult, probably illegal, and not guaranteed of success because we don't fully believe such a routing exists anyway.
alternative 2:
this task is being run, and would work ok, but there is missing state information which means the AI cannot perform the task succesfully and so breaks sieges, damages diplomacy, ruins shipbuilding, etc. this therefor is a bad bug and should be fixed.
on the other hand, if they are misleading us (deliberately/accidentally? who knows) then the AI is not performing this task and the reload function is broken. They either then cant fix it, don't want to fix it, or can't go back to the rome 1.2 version to edit it due to expansion pack work.
i cannot come to any other conclusion than the likelihood that CA is simply lying - or deluded themselves to the point where they actually believe their own lies. if you look at the graveyard, you will quickly come to see that they have essentially put the forum on "lock down". it is damned near the internet equivalent of martial law.
instead of deleting the individual offending posts, they just close entire threads. this means discussion on the matter is effectively off-limits.
Tai, as Heinlein said through Lazarus Long, "never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by stupidity." Yes, they are telling us things that are obviously not true. However, we know they are not true because we have run the tests. The simplest explanation is that Torquemada and later Shogun never bothered to read any of the detailed explanations of the bug, but went to the devs saying something to the effect of "There's a couple of whiners bitching about how the AI lifts sieges" To which the devs replied correctly that the design called for sieges to get lifted occasionally, and so we got the official nonanswer that was posted. CA protestations to the contrary, we all have seen plenty of evidence that they simply don't read nearly enough of what we post. Why should we assume that this issue was special in that regard, especially when the answer we got makes it clear that no one heard the question?
As for the forum, the mods obvoiusly haven't taken the time to run the tests either, with two exceptions (Obake and Wart IIRC, both of which came around to our side after testing. Wanna bet that they tried to argue with Shogun and got outvoted by the others?) Since there is an official "answer" and they don't see any reason to doubt it, they are doing their jobs. The church has decreed that the earth is flat and the center of the universe, and further arguement to the contrary is not to be allowed to corrupt the impressionable minds of newcomers.
Pode: Just to let you know.
The mods and admins at the .com rarely get a conversation going with anyone from CA. TheShogun hasn't been around for quite a while and it appears that the rest of the CA staff can only visit the forums on their own time and not during the work day at CA HQ. You would be surprised (Or not) about how little contact there is between the mods and CA. Except during times like these, when the CA staff take a slightly more pro-active interest and take exception with what is being said in the .com forum.
Personally, I believe there is a problem and that you guys have gone to a lot of trouble to prove it is there. Unfortunately, I also believe CA doesn't see it as such a big thing, or as something that most of their customers would be aware of and/or feel it was a major problem.
You guys made a good effort, but I can state with 100% confidence: There will not be a patch coming to correct the problem. There is a slight chance it may become a part of the expansion, but I do not think much effort will be placed in solving it.
The spamming of the .com forum on this topic is only having the effect of harrassing the mods/admins there. CA has closed the door on this, and no amount of reopening of the topic will make them change their mind on the issue. It is just creating more work for the mods/admins. I am sure some of you feel that some of the mods/admins may deserve this trouble, but you are also punishing the rest, who are only trying to keep order and make the forums enjoyable for everyone.
You gave it your best shot, and your intentions were good, but it is past time to let it go. The veterans, who have been around since the first STW days, have seen all of this several times before and recognize the signs that CA is done discussing this. I feel for you new guys, who, like us, had hopes that there would be a lot of interaction between the community and the developers with a lot of good discussions on how to improve the series. It has never happened in the past and if history holds true, it will never happen in the future. I am not happy with the way things have turned out, nor are a whole lot of people. A whole large group of MP players, left the community after RTW, and will not return unless things improve considerably.
I still wish you good luck in your attempts to get changes included in future releases of the TW series, but please do not take your frustrations out on the .com forum volunteer staff members. Let the topic die. Once things settle down, maybe a good discussion over the issue can be made, which may have an affect on future TW decisions.
Take care guys.
As the man that got the load bug thread closed and locked (as if it wouldn't have happened eventually), let me just say that I may have gotten out of hand. I don't really believe that. I think the mods over there are insane, I think CA letting them represent their company is insane. Today, I watched an army of thrace go back and forth from Byzantine (save, load, save, load, save, load, save, load). I showed my girlfriend who knows nothing about games, and even she knew that was insane. The thing is broken, if they don't want to fix it, I want my money back.
I would love to file a class action suit agains these people, but I'm fairly certain I'm going to file a small claims suit. I bought two copies of this piece of crap, and anyone with half a brain can see its entirely defective for the purpose it is intended if one can only play 1-2 turns at a time. I did not see that disclaimer on the box. Nowhere in the manual does it say that loading your game will make the AI unable to function. I'm fairly certain had I seen it, I would have returned it. They don't want to fix it fine, I want my 100 bucks plus tax back please.
Bel: I am not sure what initially got you banned, but I believe you called the mods/admins "fascist", "Nazi's" or something of that ilk, which led to the later bans. That is never a good idea, nor is it seen as acceptable by the majority of the patrons of that forum. Anger has a way of making us look as bad as the people we are complaining about.
Plus your re-registering under new names and continuing in the same vain, cursing, name-calling, etc . . forced the mods/admins, who might normally have been more lenient, to ban you over and over again and finally to delete/move/close any thread you entered, and pre-empt any more such outbursts. There are children who frequent the forum, as well as older adults, who do not deserve being treated to such vulgarities.
Making angry posts is one thing, but using foul-language is completely another. The best rule of thumb for posting is not to post anything you wouldn't say in front of your grandparents. It has served me well over the years and forced me to be more creative in expressing myself when I am disturbed about something.
I hope you can continue as a patron of the .com forums, by showing your anger in another, more acceptable way.
Good luck
PS: I sold my game back to EB Games during the first week, but unfortunately, I only got about half of the actual cost of the initial price. But I am definitely no longer frustrated by the crappy MP game and horrible interface/control scheme. ~:)
No, I got banned initially for saying posting the name of the newsgroup which be the only place I would ever acquire another CA game. Childish sure, immature maybe, but no less insulting than The Shogun's post. I believe everyone was being very patient and just wanted an answer until they decided their answer was that everything was fine and everyone was insane. I'm not a poster. I don't troll, I don't BS. I'm a lurker. I have absolutely no desire to ever patronize the .com forums again nor get into inane arguments with them.
You'll notice that noowhere did Killemall just ban me, or erase the post. No, he had to have the last stupid word, throw in his final jab then ban, well I'm not one for allowing someone to have the last word. Thus, the reregistering. He then had to start threatening my supposed "friends" if I posted again, like I know anyone from any total war board anywhere, at which point I had to post just to find out who he banned. Instead, he just closed the thread. No biggie. They are the worst public face in the history of game companies, hopefully it bites em in the butt bigtime. I'm done with CA.
Well, the load/save game issue is currently making the rounds, and many wargamers are none too happy about this issue. They too are boycotting CA games in the future:
http://www.wargamer.com/forums/tm.asp?m=121533&go=last
http://www.wargamer.com/forums/tm.asp?m=121601&go=last
I seem to remember something similar happened a short while ago:
The developer was 3DO and the game was HoM&M4. 3DO went belly-up and the rest is history...
When will they ever learn?
:bow:
I have to say at this stage with a quick rescan through multiple sites and including the very entertaining Official .COM site this has reached a disgraceful level of response by CA.
I don't mind a company that takes on an ambitious project like this and then has to iron out many issues after release, but the mere fact that the Protectorate thread is merrily running along on the .COM site as "Exhibit B" of the Load/Game "Feature" is very damning to the overall understanding of CA about their own product.
That is a long sentence, sorry for that.
I think what is really going to happen with the 20 or 40 or 60 thousand people that are realistically aware of these debilitating "Features" is that they will wait to purchase the next Expansion when it comes out...that "Wait", will impact the initial sales numbers enough to get the money strings tugging. Then of course *bingo*...we have a consumer win!!
Until we reach that "Bottom Line Correction" point, we are better off making as many people as possible aware of these Debilitating Features so as to make this Correction Point as impactful as possible. They have to release an expansion. And when they do...well you all nkow the best result for the long term...massive drop is sales figures.
Think of it like a Stock Market Correction. We just have to make sure the "Ass" falls out of the CA market at that time.
You reckon 60000 are aware of this? a couple of thou tops I suspect. I'm aware, and frankly it doesn't bother me that mmuch as a bug, i play long sessions, as I suspect, in fact, do most of those complaining. It's not ideal but it doesn't really affect my enjoyment.
.org, TWC and .com are pretty incestuous places, and while there's a lot of noise, there's actually not that massive a footfall. I suspect most people will still by the XP. I will.
There are some issues about the way CA has handled this, but IMO it's not a game killer. I'd much rather any development itme went into beefing up the AI in general for an XP.
Watch what your doing with those *'s.!!! ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieGiant
*Ringo*
Bel, thank you for closing loadgame thread.
I blame your immature behaviour more then moders.
Ok, I have to confess: I reinstalled MTW this week, and am immmediately engrossed in a Polish High Hard GA campaign.
I haven't played RTW for weeks now, it just doesn't grab me in the same way.
And if I am going to play for just half an hour, then it has to be COD or something similar, esp. as it will screw my RTW campaign.
Ah well, such is life.
@Elmark
I can understand you being an apologist for the ridiculous behavior of the .com mods, as you say you have experience as a mod and know how it feels to be abused. We all know there is improper behavior on every forum that needs correction from mods. But the actions of the mods on .com go far beyond what is required. They are quite obviously moderating to an agenda, probably because of angry e-mails from CA staff. I think they teach you in Mods 101 that you edit or delete individual messages, rather than locking whole threads over one or two problem posts.
The Mods are really unhappy when they get compared to Nazis or other fascists. There's the Godwin's Corollary, etc, and the enforced political correctness that says, "If you mention that in any way, your point and your posting are invalid." Well that's simply not true. If someone can make a valid comparison between how the Minister of Propaganda or Baghdad Bob treated things, then I don't see how that is a violation of the forum rules in any way other than some people just don't like it. It sure is a lucky thing for people like you that FREEDOM OF SPEECH is not enforceable on your precious forums.
@Those who would prove the bug exists to CA:
Trust me, they KNOW. One of the first things you need to do as a dev with a game is make sure the game state persists in the save game file. There is no wiggle room here. Patrons here have proven the game state does not persist. That isn't a "reassessment", that's a REINITIALIZATION. We didn't save the data, so we treat every load like it's a new game. What's the first concern when you start? Adequate defense, hence the recall of troops from active offensive positions to passive defensive ones, because the AI has no memory of what was going on. It's spin, plain and simple. So while I completely understand you wanting to prove the point, this is just a case of CA not wanting to hear it. Angry posters at the .com have called them liars, and the mod response has been to imply some "dire consequences" for that. Yeah, I'm sure they'll put some barristers in a rowboat to prosecute some 13 year old in Australia who has insulted them.
@The whole community:
Don't let people like Elmark tell you your actions can't influence the bottom line for CA and SEGA. They (the companies) NEED YOU. You don't NEED them! You can't force them to act by being civil and giving them test results, but you can post negative reviews on Amazon, write to all the people (and do it in a mature way) at the gaming magazines and websites, and expose as much as possible to the gaming community just what's going on here. That will eventually get enough notice to either force CA to do what is right, or if they never give in, they can become the next 3DO or SSI. The choice is up to them, but this can only work if you keep up the campaign of public information. Don't let it die, that's exactly the hope of CA: outlast the cloud over them.
Elmark,
I personally gave up on CA issuing a patch for the load/save bug some time ago. The recent locking and deleting of bug threads shows that the Mods over at .COM are sweeping the whole issue under the rug. Just because this has happened doesn't mean that the community should just shrug its shoulders and say "oh well". If the users roll over and take it, Creative Assembly will continue to do a shoddy quality assurance job and refuse to patch game altering bugs. Their policy will never change.
BTW, my account over at .COM was deleted the same day that I posted a message encouraging an email campaign protesting CA's refusal to patch a flawed game. Aside from the obvious censorship implications, it does signal that CA is concerned about us (the community) raising public awareness.
Player,
Your welcome! You can blame my immature behavior all you want, as for the several thousand other threads they closed, I'm sure you'll come up with some apology for that too. I stuck to the thread they created, in the buried Rant and Rave section and I ranted about the company's announcement made that same day. If he didn't like a comment (like the fake newsgroup name I posted) he could have felt free to delete it or edit it out, just as easy as what he did. Instead, killemall had to rub his e-peen and act all sweet and engage a conversation with a guy he banned. If you don't see the fact that he was equally responsible for that conversation, you're insane. He just thought he could get the last word, and as it turned out he was wrong.
We Shell Overcome?Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Celt
Well, I wouldn’t be holding my breath on that bet.
And as for ElmarkOFear-sama, he is an old dog and highly respected on the TW scene; he is no underdog, and never will be.
When he says “don’t waste your breath”, he says so because he knows the way things will unfold, not because he is covering anyone. I know it too, and I say he is 100% right. I would love to be wrong, but I know I’m not. I’d be happy if people could prove me otherwise at some point, but whatever you do in process, don’t hold your breath.
Want another sad truth? Nobody else except CA will give us the next TW; we need them, they don’t need us. If they prove unable to give us another proper TW game, forget it, girls and boys. The fans of Fallout will know what exactly I am talking about. You don’t trust me? Well, I review games for a PC magazine, preferably strategy games; only game traders in stores have more games in their hands than me, I can assure you of that. There were attempts to imitate TW, but they all failed miserably, mediocrity is the best they could do. No one can make a new TW game but CA, period.
When I look at the number of old school fighters posting in Colloseum, I realize a painful truth; CA could write us all off and concentrate on the new target groups for the next title, and would still have remarkable numbers on their hands.
So, basically, we’ve been dealt a worst possible hand, and the dealer as well as all the other players on the table know it exactly.