Interactive History V: The Duel of the Sea

1) The breakout

I (Hasty maneuvers to catch the British without the reinforcements coming down)
This is a tricky one, because sailing out undetected might be quite a hard feat, but if we can do it then D is good.

But I've been also thinking about B might be an option, because I especially like the part of being between the enemy and their ports. Also I believe the Brits won't expect us to make use of that gap.

So personally I'd like to do option D with a twist and try to slip behind the enemy using the western gap and then do the deception with the destroyer. I believe especially the fact that we're coming from the northwest should help us deceive them initially. Although the problem here is trying to slip through the minefields undetected.

Another option would be to slip out during the next night through the western gap and then during dawn try to deceive that you're the relief force coming towards the enemy with a south-eastern course. Only bad thing is that the sun would be in our eyes in this scenario, but on the other hand it should give us the advantage of surprise, press the enemy against the minefields and if we time it right during sunrise the British ships will be illuminated against the sun, while we are coming out from the darkness.

So my vote might actually be a Nr. II with a mix of B and D...:dizzy2:

But if such a combination isn't feasible, then option D should do fine. :2thumbsup:


2)

B: Indulge him. Wait until tomorrow when another 700 troops arrive, load onto the big fast commerce raiders in port. Then escort heavily with topedoboats and a taskforce of battleships and battlecruisers (4 and 3).

I chose this one, because if there's heavy sea on the North Sea, then those torpedoboats might get severe probs in high waves. Better be safe than sorry. But would be cool if you could delay the operation with one more day, so that we could prepare it a bit more.

3) Betruger (can't be chosen in case it is being used in 1)

C: Will lead a few heavy ships on a nightly portraid. (can be chosen ven if she is used in 1)

Propably we won't be able to use her, but if we do then a proper portraid is the best thing for her. But that can be worried about later on.

Thanks Kraxis. I have reevaluated my choices and I now think ID is too much of a risk. It only takes one British lookout that focuses on the Betruger's guns (or the ships behind it) and our deception will go awry. Instead, I prefer IID. The British will be reinforced, but we will be in full force as well and the Furious's planes will be useless at night. A confused night battle fought at our terms, with a zep hovering near by (but not too close as not to attract Furious' planes), may well give us the victory we want.

A few questions for clarification

If options in 1 I happen in daylight today, and most of 1 II in daylight tomorrow, is 1 II D tonight or tomorrow night? This potentially makes a difference in whether the British have received reinforcements.
Also am I right in thinking 1 II D is a full fleet attack begun by a torpedo run, not just Betruger and the torpedo boats?

And my current thoughts

1)
Final decision depends on the above questions, but
I a) - Will they fall for the same trick twice? I suspect not.
b) - Can we time this as an afternoon attack so the sun is behind us?
c) - Definitely not, this just means that when we do have to face them they will have reinforcements.
d) - Betruger may be convincing, but just how close can our main force get before it's obvious they're German? High risk.
Is it feasible to include b or d with a move out of the eastern gap by some pre-dreadnaughts, to con the British into thinking that's the real attack?

2)
I'm not sure we should feel too guilty about sending troops over to Britain. If you were given the choice of i) landing in Britain, engaging in a fast raid against specific targets and then getting out or surrendering or ii) going to the Western Front and charging across no man's land, which would you pick?

We have to do something to keep the Kaiser happy, but I really don't want to risk the Battlecruisers - we need them more elsewhere, and they could easily run into British reinforcements on the way back. A large scale landing would be logistically difficult, and the troops probably will be of more use at the front.
So, I want to opt for A but without the battlecruisers - just torpedo boats. Go for Hartlepool area as the target (I suspect Kent will be too full of tommies en route to France). Besides the port of Hartlepool, the Redcar steelworks just south is very close to the coast (and a quick check has just revealed it opened in 1917, so is presumably one of the most modern the British have). We could land troops to attack one, shell the other, take some propaganda photos of our brave soldiers blowing up British blast furnaces or dockyard cranes and get out. If the RN turn up get our ships out quickly - we need to preserve our light forces - and let the troops surrender with honour.
Whatever we do, radio silence is of course essential on this mission.

3
Depends on what I finally decide for 1, but if she is available I'd go for option B. Don't want to risk the bigger ships too at this stage, and they could compomise her deception. And sinking ships is of itself also bad for British morale, whereas option a) just lowers morale without material impact.

IID means an attack this coming night. It gives you enough time to colelct your forces so don't worry, but at the same time you have to expect the British squadron will have arrived, and you only know that it is small and contains a boxy ship.

Ok.I will stick with 2)d.We wanted a big battle and this is pretty much it.I urge you guys to go with that option.We need our full force in that battle.About the British reinforcements.Lets remember that with option 2)d we will have all of our available forces in the battle.Reinforcements or not we will outnumber them,and if our plot succees we will also suprise and cripple them.:bow:

Is it possible to in IID to do the breakout at night and then initiate the Torpedoboat attack just before dawn? If we could time it right, then I believe that we could get daylight once we're engaged close to them and we would propably be able to avoid some of the chaos of the nightbattle, while still having the advantage of visibility that the night offers us?

So I'm sticking with a IID and using the western gap sounds good. Also Flavius idea of sending the pre-dreadnoughts through the eastern gap sounds good. If so we might manage to sandwich them between our forces and the minefields. :2thumbsup:

I completely agree. This is what we have been waiting for lets now do it.:2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by AggonyDuck

Also Flavius idea of sending the pre-dreadnoughts through the eastern gap sounds good. If so we might manage to sandwich them between our forces and the minefields. :2thumbsup:

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If you remember it was decided not to activate them. Such actions takes time. So they can't come to your aid now.

Oh yeah good point...:wall: But is it possible to send some forces to do that?

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Originally Posted by Kraxis

If you remember it was decided not to activate them. Such actions takes time. So they can't come to your aid now.

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Damn, I now realise I even voted for this option... :wall: I think at times we've confused references to our older dreadnaughts and the pre-dreadnaughts.

I do think we should take steps to bring them back into operations, as we recently said, if nothing else they can act as a diversionary force - from a distance their smoke trail should show they are large ships that might be our main force - and whilst they won't be of much use against more modern RN forces, when we do go for the Channel they can attack merchant shipping and shore targets while our main fleet takes on the RN.

Can we send out attack boats (whatever you described as the equivalent of WW2 e-boats) through the eastern gap instead of the pre-dreadnaughts?

Having done a little more reading on HMS Furious I am worried by the idea of waiting for battle tomorrow, if that means the 'small taskforce' will have re-inforced the British battleships. This will give the British air superiority, at least during the day, keeping our Zeps at bay and allowing British recon which will hamper our chances for subterfuge and surprise. Also in real life one of the first things Furious did was launch a bombing raid on a Zeppelin base, so we may find our 'eyes' are left with nowhere to operate from.

So, I think we need to strike today with the available forces, and then follow up with action against the Furious taskforce as soon as we can (maybe using Betruger), and doing whatever we can to stack the odds in our favour. So I vote for 1-I-B, but if at all possible a) timed to afternoon so the light is to some extent with us rather than against us and b) with some kind of diversion first via the eastern gap if at all possible. If the majority view is still to wait for tomorrow, then I vote for the night attack.

For the other choices I'll go with:
2 - a if we can do this without the battlecruisers, otherwise d (maybe a big victory today will help us change the Kaiser's mind).
3 - b if we are in a position to use her.

Now this is an interesting set of choices. I'm extremely pleased with the results of our previous decisions - particularly the decision to scout Scapa Flow. Here's why: we have accounted for most of the British fleet. The 24 heavy ships at Scapa Flow and 11 on the edge of the Bight account for most of the British heavy forces.

What of the small task force heading south and accompanied by what appears to be an aircraft carrier? I myself hold it in little regard. Carriers had not reached maturity at this stage, and were not the dominant force they were to become in later years. This lightly-escorted experiment by the British will be little more than a tasty morsel for our great battleships.

So here are my conclusions:

1) The Breakout

I vote II D, and agree with AggonyDuck's suggestion to mix in a bit of B by using the western gap. We'll also have to watch our backs for the arrival of the British task force.

2) The Kaiser

Let's go with B. I want the Hindenburg and Derfflinger for our vastly more important operation, but let's not waste any more troops than necessary.

3) The Bretruger

This is a little tricky, because if we use it in 1) we will definitely tip of the British that we have it. A and B are right out, because we'll be using it already. The question therefore is: to C or not to C? Once we've used it to psyche the British out in a major fleet confrontation, they'll be on guard against it; thus, a port raid will probably not succeed, and at worst could waste some of our heavy ships. I say we're already getting our money's worth out of it with II D - let's keep it back for a while after that, and not push our luck.

Ok, there seems to be a bit of confusion about the battlecruisers on possible escort.

If you go for 1) II choices and then 2A then you will lack these ships as they are on escort (they leave the day before you do).
Unfortunately you can't refuse the escort. The torpedoboats will be heavily laden, and won't be much good if they meet British destroyers or even worse light cruisers. And since both types of ships are stationed in fair numbers along the eastern coast (the target), there is far too little chance the torpedoboats can make it alone, and since the light cruisers are severely depleted you can't afford to send a strong escort of them. You will need heavier units.

Should British battleships pop up the escort will take up the fight against a single enemy battleship, guage the situation with two, run at three. British battlecruisers are confirmed in Scapa Flow and as such can't be expected to arrive in time (also they would more likely be sent to force you back home rather than deal with unimportant landings). Should they do the escort will engage up to two battlecruisers, and guage the situation with three.
The two battlecruisers in 2A will be quite safe on this assignment.

The attackboats don't have the stamina to sail that far. They can in theory do it, but they are as yet still rather primitive and don't handle heavy seas well at all. They are only practical in shallow home waters where they can strike from hidden locations.

I (Hasty maneuvers to catch the British without the reinforcements coming down)

B: The British-made opening has been found. In their hurry to escape their minesweepers failed to pick up the markers. So make a northwestern variant of A. Risk is that the light will make you more visible to the British. But on the other hand you will be pinning them on the minefields and keeping their homebase behind you.

If we erase the whole fleet this will have a big impact on the British morla and the coming operations. And hell - do this Tommies really think they can capture us in our own harbors. Time to teach them a lesson!

2) The Kaiser. While he is prepared to throw the troops lives away, you are not, so you will stay and protect them if you so chose. And I promis you get the option to reinforce the ships protecting them (if possible of course).

D: Play the waiting game. Do not commit yourself to anything, but be prepared for an opening. But the Kaiser is obviously an impatient man.
Wait. If we do a landing, it can only be part of the big operation. So let's first clear the bay, then start an operation.

3) Betruger (can't be chosen in case it is being used in 1)
B: She will play innocent at day, but at night she will attack channel ports and/or convoys in the channel.
Best thing to fritter the RN forces!

Kraxis,
I do not think that you describe the role of the Kaiser how it was. First of all I doubt tha´t an ordinary admiral could talk directly to him. Then I also doubt that he had the power to decide any operation goals. So if there is really the order to make a landing, then it comes from the General Staff and the Kaiser is only a straw dog, who will have the blame, if it fails. In the last years of the war Germany was de facto a military dictatorship.

Hardly a post all week then you all go crazy over the weekend.
I believe we should strike before the Furious arrives as her planes will give the english a recon advantage. We however must not risk a night action - our light forces are weak while our heavy forces will outnumber the English locally, so it should be a Hasty daytime action. As we are going for a knockout punch we should try and catch the English against the minefields - so 1: I B.

We should carryout a quick raid - it will put the English off guard. I would go for northen East Anglia, near King's Lynn. King's Lynn is a reasonably important port, but would probably be not that well defended. More importantly Sandringham, one of the Royal palaces is nearby and could be raided by a swift force, preferably cavalry - Kraxis, I see we have some horse - so a few Ulhans on the Royal estate will please the Kaiser greatly and cause a disproportant level of furore with the English. Sandringham is a summer palace, so the King is unlikely to be there which also means less likelehood of a large garrison . Also, this area is the nearest to our bases and the coast is quite open and hence easy for landings. Hartlepool was raided earlier in the war I believe - shelled by battlecruisers - so it may be more heavilly defended. When all the other troops arrive, we can use them for a port raid.

Betruger - our new toy - we must not waste this valuable asset - so let us hold it back until the raid on the port.:2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Franconicus

Kraxis,
I do not think that you describe the role of the Kaiser how it was. First of all I doubt tha´t an ordinary admiral could talk directly to him. Then I also doubt that he had the power to decide any operation goals. So if there is really the order to make a landing, then it comes from the General Staff and the Kaiser is only a straw dog, who will have the blame, if it fails. In the last years of the war Germany was de facto a military dictatorship.

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You can talk to him, or at least could. He was very impressed with you and the High Seas Fleet. And while he has no real operational capability he is being placated by the generals (and who says that it is the Kaiser's own idea? People liked to whisper in his ears).

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Originally Posted by Kraxis

You can talk to him, or at least could. He was very impressed with you and the High Seas Fleet.

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Even then there would have been o lot of people (staffs, servants, politicians, ...) who would have prevented it. And now, I bet the admirality is very upset about our fault pas.:oops:

I think we should attack at night, our zeps should give us a significant advantage and spotting. IMHO the Betruger would be of the most use in a night battle were the brits have less of a chance to identify it as one our ships before it opens fire. Secondly i think we should not divide our forces if we already outnumber them why use our advantage? It seems to me that the British could smash one force while fighting a delaying action with the other then smash that one. So I say II D


2) b lets attack when the bight is cleared.

3) see 1

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Originally Posted by King Kurt

Hardly a post all week then you all go crazy over the weekend.
I believe we should strike before the Furious arrives as her planes will give the english a recon advantage. We however must not risk a night action - our light forces are weak while our heavy forces will outnumber the English locally, so it should be a Hasty daytime action. As we are going for a knockout punch we should try and catch the English against the minefields - so 1: I B.

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Exactly why are you against a night action? It will give us the chance to escape the minefield unnoticed and I don't think WWI aircraft carriers were sophisticated enough for night missions (they weren't really important anyway), so that cancels out the Furious. Also, we have a zeppelin spotting, and because we are better trained and have the initiative the chaos should hurt the English more.

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Originally Posted by Ludens

Exactly why are you against a night action? It will give us the chance to escape the minefield unnoticed and I don't think WWI aircraft carriers were sophisticated enough for night missions (they weren't really important anyway), so that cancels out the Furious. Also, we have a zeppelin spotting, and because we are better trained and have the initiative the chaos should hurt the English more.

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Yes, and combine that with the Betruger and a few torpedo boats sneaking close for another direction right before the bigger ships start shelling, or the other way around - the Betruger and a few torpedo boats sneaking close from the other direction AFTER the ships start shelling - they'll look like reinforcements for a while.

Can't speak for King Kurt, but my own preference for going today is not that the Furious can present any threat at night, but what it's aircraft might do during the day tomorrow before our night attack. Sopwith Camels will be far more of a threat to our Zeps than their airships have been, so we would have to keep them out of harms way, and on past form I'd put money on the British launching a bombing raid against the hangers. Hence I'd rather attack with what we can today before Furious arrives, which will still allow us a good superiority in capital ships. If we have a win against the battleships it might make the Brits withdraw the Furious taskforce before it arrives, and if not we can send the battlecruisers against it.

There is a separate question of whether our relative lack of light forces is more of a disadvantage in daytime or night combat. I'm not sure about this, but as a night combat is likely to be at closer range there must be some risk the British destroyers could make an effective torpedo counterattack.

Those are good points. I may change my vote again, but I am uncertain. I'd like to know of each option exactly what the risk is that the British will pin us while we are trying to leave the minefield. In other words: how close are they and how likely are they to find out?

Ok, again...

The night attack will be the first night, the options of II will be tomorrow. I obviously is as soon as possible.

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Originally Posted by Ludens

Exactly why are you against a night action? It will give us the chance to escape the minefield unnoticed and I don't think WWI aircraft carriers were sophisticated enough for night missions (they weren't really important anyway), so that cancels out the Furious. Also, we have a zeppelin spotting, and because we are better trained and have the initiative the chaos should hurt the English more.

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The relative weakness of our light forces is my major concern about a night action - our capital ships would be susceptable to a torpedo attack in the general melee. We did well in the last night action purely due to the fortunate coincidence of taking the Kaiser for a trip around the bay. The presence of our heavies meant we quickly overwhelmed the English force.
During a day action we are, ship for ship, at least the equal, if not the superior of the English - but they have significantly more ships than we do. However, we know there are about 11 heavies in the Bight so we can get a local superiority over them. Also, by catching them against the minefields, they can't get away. So, why risk the lottery of a night action, when we have all the advantages in a day action.
Finaly, the concern about the Furious is as a threat to our Zepplins. They give us an edge in any day battle by their recon and spotting activities. If Furious's planes drive them off, the English will have that advantage. As a seperate point, I am not convinced that a Zep adds much to a night action - they would struggle to tell who was who.:2thumbsup:

IMHO i cant see a WWI plane trying to fly in night while shells and aa are raining all over. Our zeps will be much safer as in they will be less vissable and with the zeps we have the serious advantage of spoting, which the brits won't have. In the day, the zeps will be out in the open, the british planes can do recon, and they will also have better visibility (ours at night is made up for by the zeps)

I'd just like to say that I predict a night battle will be the end of us. I don't see us going into it with any real advantage but suprise, and I see us coming out of it on the wrong side of the slaughter.

With quick strike to pin them against the mines we have a number of advantages, and will not even have to worry about Furious because it will be a ways off. We will also not run the risk of having our capital ships torpedoed and our Zeppelins will lend us a decisive advantage.

Please don't send us into a night battle, it will be the end of us even if we win.

Okay, you convinced me. I change my vote to IB, provided Kraxis hasn't written the next episode yet. Let's hope the British won't catch us in the minefield.

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Originally Posted by Ludens

Okay, you convinced me. I change my vote to IB, provided Kraxis hasn't written the next episode yet. Let's hope the British won't catch us in the minefield.

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But, Ludens, choice I will most likely result in either an evening battle or a night one; so what's the difference when considering Uesugi Kenshin's concerns?

Me, on the other hand, believe that we have a slight advantage to choose the night. The possible British airplanes will be paralyzed in the night--our Zeppelins might have lower scouting capability, but at least they will be safe from the vicious fighters during the night, and they would still help, anyway, against a blind enemy. Also, tomorrow our forces will be a little weaker if choice 1 is to be concluded as the answer for question 2, while the British could possibly receive reinforcements that are currently on their way. I see no real advantage to go strike later in the daylight except for a few less risk factors. Torpedo is a major risk, but it would seem choice B helps with less chance for the British to launch torpedoes.

Tomorrow would only make the discrepancy of the light forces' strengths even larger.

However, I've changed my mind about choice 1: 1B--which I presume will be at night, or evening, tpday; just as soon as possible--seems to me a better choice if to be used in conjunction with 3C. 1D might be too risky a maneuver even in the cover of night (how could such a large force slip by unnoticed, through a usual gap, if the British are specifically watching the Bight?), and, if the pinning succeeds, the battleships are finished.

I also voice my support to choose Sandringham as a possible location for a quick raid, but would rather hear concrete information first, before fully endorsing it.

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Originally Posted by Kraxis

Ok, again...

The night attack will be the first night, the options of II will be tomorrow. I obviously is as soon as possible.

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Ah, sorry I had misinterpreted 'coming night' as tomorrow night, as you mentioned that the reinforecement British squadron would probably have arrived by then.

However, I stick with my original choice of 1-I-B ahead of 1-II-D. I'm sure we'll take some damage either way, but I think the risk in the night battle is higher as the engagement will have to be at closer range, helping the enemy destroyers to get in among us with torpedoes. Also more chance of at least some of the British getting away in the dark, and any damaged ships of ours might struggle to get back through the minefield gap during the night.

On the raid on the UK - Sandringham looks very close to the coast, but I think The Wash is relatively shallow and with treacherous tides (open to correction on this!) which might make getting our task force in risky.

Guys so we are sailing out with not full fleet.At evening. I must express my worries but if we are spotted on the minefilds we will be slaughtered.Il stick with II D.Altough it doesnt matter becouse the majority thinks otherwise.:sweatdrop:

1 D, 2 A and 3 C.