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Conscript fathers,
Altough I remain a skeptic about operations in the East, at least one good thing has come of this venture. Molon, the slayer of my friend and former co-consul Publius Pansa has been killed in Pergamon. Even as I remain distrutful of the ambitious Numerius Aureolus, I do wish to thank him and the men of the Legio V for relieving this burden from my heart.
Let our enemies beware !
Roman honour will not go unstatisfied !
A Consul's death will always be avenged !
Senators,
I have heard just QUITE enough! Senator Lucius Aemilius, it is clear you have certain issues which potentially stem from not receiving command of this Consular Army however, I will not hold any personal feelings such as this against you. You were not slighted by this Consul, needs required the armies deployment before you could join us….that is all.
It appears though that for clarity I must spell some certain facts out to the Senate.
I do not wish to speak ill of a former Consul but suffice to say that under the leadership of the pervious Consul the Republic suffered. Not on the Battlefield but economically and tactically.
Building plans were started that were neither economically viable or cost efficient. Troops were recruited with seemingly no cohesion or overall plan and an Invasion of Afrika was conceived…..a plan that, on the surface was brilliant! But without any substance OR co-ordination!
We were to strike at Afrika and Carthage with THREE armies……there was only one ready when the Consul was about to strike. However, I have said this before and will not drag up old hurts.
What IS important is that is appears that the Senate is not considering how long it takes to recruit, transport and deploy a fighting force! Do they believe that a Consular army that is required in Afrika is just plucked up by the hand of Mars himself and placed into position??
Let me spell it out. How long do YOU believe it takes a Consular army to be moved from a staging point to deployment? YES, the Consular army I am currently in command of WAS to be one of the spearheads of attack against Carthage but there was no support. A second army was to be presented but this wasn’t even in recruitment stage.
What would you do with a Consular army that is just sitting in the field costing coin and eating grain? You USE it Senators! That’s what you do….you make the best use of what armies you have for an army doing nothing is worth less than nothing…..
So, at that junction when the current Consul made his choice, what did we have before us?
We had Carthage before us but too strong to attack.
We had Carthaginian forces on OUR islands but a Senate unwilling to allow these to be removed.
We had the Seleucids SORELY pressing our Eastern flank and threatening or Greek cities….indeed they had already taken such a city AND killed several Senators!
We were constantly advised by the previous Consul and others that the SELEUCIDS were the greatest threat, that if we didn’t do something, the Seleucids would be knocking on the door of the Senate in a few years time!
Does the Senate forget those recent times?
Acting BECAUSE of this situation the Consul decided that the Consular army I now command would be sailed to the East to help DEFEND us. Yes…..defend.
Ships were constructed. A fleet assembled and we took to the seas.
Then, due to the martial prowess of my Grandfather, Senator Aureolus and the commands of the Consul the Roman forces already there proved more than adequate to defeat those “undefeatable” Seleucid forces.
However, by this time the Consular army was well underway and further from Carthage than it was from the Eastern front.
Would you have the Consul turn us about and sail back? What then if the Seleucids suddenly deployed another few Consular sized forces? Were we to turn about YET AGAIN?!?
Would you have this Consular army forever in the seas, costing coin and eating grain. Doing Nothing?
Nay Senators, due to the time it takes for these things to occur it is best to set a course of action, complete it and THEN decide what is needed and is best for the Republic.
THIS Consul is looking beyond his own tenure of leadership. There are no short term plans here and the Republic will be greatly enriched and in a clean and hearty state for the next Consul…..plans will be clearly laid out and easily understandable.
The Invasion of Afrika still took place as the Senate requested. The Consul laying his own life on the line to satisfy this request. Also, can the Senate say that the Consul has “ruled out” the full completion of this plan?
The plan against Carthage STILL requires those two armies that were not started at the beginning of the Consuls tenure of care. Can you say he has NOT started recruitment of these armies? Can you say for sure he will NOT fulfil this requirement?
Why is the Senate so Obsessed with conquest of Carthage immediately? Plans take time, it appears many are not willing to allow time to construct a proper plan and execute it in the best tactical manner. Was that perhaps WHY the previous Consul was committing to an ill conceived and ill supported invasion? It is clear that certain members of the Senate would have the Republic embark upon certain actions that would devastate us, and now they berate the current Consul as he FLATLY refuses to be goaded into such rash actions just to appease those who politic and plot.
Immediately as the Consul came into his tenure the Republic had to commit to defence and action against the Seleucids. Why is it that some people have such short memories of how it was in those first days and the urgency that the Senate themselves gave to such action?
It is true that we do not, perhaps, need this Consular army in the East anymore. However, once embarked it was folly for us to withdraw from such commitment. Is it not best that this army be used to ensure the security in the East now? Then perhaps, who knows where best it will be deployed again? West, East, North or South….to me it matters not! It may matter to the Republic though.
Do not berate the Consul for merely completing the tasks that he HAD to initiate all those months, years ago even.
As for a defensive/offensive posture in the East. The military idem that “Offence is the best form of Defence” always holds true.
Did we just continue to defend the crossing against the Gauls who constantly threatened at Massilia?
No, we went on the offensive, destroyed the Gauls heartlands and defeated the enemy. Perhaps, in hind-sight, we were wrong not to attempt to occupy more of their settlements but, at the time, we did what we thought was best and economically sound.
Is the situation in the East and Asia-Minor very different from that? Do we not face a similar situation, with an enemy bent on constantly throwing their armies at us? Would it not be best for the Republic to, again, sally forth and ensure the Republics stability by fatally injuring our enemies?
I do not preach the conquest of the Seleucid empire, what I do prescribe to is the establishment of a more defensible border and several buffer states between the Seleucids and some of the most advanced cities outside of Roma herself!
Asia-Minor is NOT Europe….otherwise it would be called Europe.
The Motions passed to abandon certain settlements in that area was based upon the assumption that we could not, under any circumstances, keep control of them under the Seleucid offensive. This has proved wholly inaccurate now as all have seen.
Carthage is still a Primary concern and one that this Consul chooses to deal with…..but WHEN it is tactically BEST for the Republic to do so and NOT when it pleases certain individual Senators!
This Consul is committed to ensuring the lasting security of the Republic. The construction of Forts to hold back our war-like neighbours. Committed to the continued investment in our internal infrastructure and committed to ensuring that HE passes on a healthy and powerful Republic to the next Consul.
I applaud senator Manius Coruncanius's verbosity, but there are some distortions of the truth and vile slanders I take exception to.
As the current consul Servius will verify, I have repeatedly offered to take over dead-end positions like Viberi, in order that our less experienced generals can get some battle experience. On being asked what position I desired, I told him it mattered not to me, whatever was convenient for him. So this is clearly a vile slander.Quote:
Originally Posted by Braden
Except for some hollow phrases, I have not heard one concrete example of mistakes made on my part. I also consider this a vile slander.Quote:
Originally Posted by Braden
If it had not been for the pressure put on me by the senate under the leadership of the warmonger Numerius Aureolus, a war with the Ptolemaic and the Seleucid Empire could have been avoided.
Actually, I never said such a thing. On the contrary, on several occasions I advised the 'Seleucid threat' to be ignored and the Consular Army send to Carthage (It was already on the border of Sicily by that point).Quote:
Originally Posted by Braden
Ah, another proponent of endless expansion to the shores of the Indian Ocean in order to 'secure' our border.Quote:
Originally Posted by Braden
Actually, we did, for a very long time, because it is such an excellent defensive position, just like the Bosporus strait was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Braden
Lastly, I wish to state that my words in the senate offer this house the benefit of my wisdom accumulated in two terms of consul and over 30 years of fighting for the Republic. The consul himself has often expressed the value of this advice. This does not say my strategy and tactics are necessarily the best. The first consul may very well make true on all his claims. It is the first consul who makes the decisions. Yet, the moment we have 'heard enough' in this house we may as well appoint another king. We can never 'hear enough' in the senate.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]:
Ah, Lucius, it seems that you too have now joined the camp that seeks to rewrite history and blame me personally for being attacked by Ptolemy and Seleucia. Still, perhaps I should be grateful that you explicitly rejected such an absurd position while in office.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucius Aemilius
I would be interested to hear exactly how you think I provoked the war - surely you are not going to resurrect the canard about insignificant Debeltos being the spark? I would also be interested if you can find any evidence that I played a leadership role in the Senate during your time in office. It may be my imaginings, but at times it felt more like there was a vast pacifist conspiracy against me. Anyway, I was just a young tribune, scarcely turned twenty. I suspect you overestimate my importance.
As you say, it is the First Consul who leads. If we took actions that hold us responsible for other nations attacking us, I submit that the ultimate responsibility lies with you. If so, it would be quite a mistake. To blame the Senate and a young tribune for such a mistake seems rather unworthy of a man of your age and reputation.
But of course, I myself do not believe such an absurdity. The only mistakes were those of Ptolemy and Seleucia, as Molon has now found out, and as other successor generals and settlements will soon realise.
After two years of conflict with Seleucia and Ptolemy, surely Rome can unite around our struggle with tham, rather than foolishly scapegoat the men leading the war against them?
No, of course, Lucius, your period in office was flawless. Nonetheless, does not losing two Co-Consuls seem, at the very least, a little careless?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucius Aemilius
What I had “heard enough” of Senator was the constant impatience regarding a Conquest of Carthage and the harsh words spoken against the Consul, I am a stanch republican Sir, to suggest otherwise is likely to slander me as much as I have apparently slandered you.
The plans the Consul has are sound, I have been privy to many and like you, advise him on some aspects….though my word does not have the “gravitas” that yours does.
I do not wish to Slander sir but when I looked at the state of the Republic when the Consul took over….my mind spiralled! Why were their Cavalry in a Republican city as Garrison troops?? Why was there alie troops embarking for Tarentum? Why so many Roman troops seemingly stationed in cities awaiting orders? There are other economic plans also but I will speak no further other than to say that the situation was Confusing in the least.
Whilst, perhaps you did not directly state that the Seleucids were the greatest threat we faced, I have not had the chance to check the Senate records, it was certainly the impression within the Senate at the time that they were…..perhaps the defeat and killing of my dear tutor Senator Pansa had something to do with that?
Can you deny that this was the feeling in the Senate?
As for our historic issue at Massilia. What you say is at least partially true. The Republic did wait, we waited for the coin and a commander to perform the task.
Unfortunately due to that “delay” we were defeated, an Eagle taken and a Noble Roman’s name besmirched. Would you taunt fate again?
Senator, I do not doubt that you will perform what tasks are best for the Republic. What I call for now is that the Republic be patient with regards Carthage, it may even appear that our Consul may settle this issue ALONE shortly!
What will those voices in the Senate say about Carthage when our Consul controls their Capital city?
Criticise what you will but at least allow such things that are still in progress to become apparent before you globally condemn.
Do you at least accept that, it would be folly to reverse my Consular armies course now? A plan is set, it must be completed to ensure long term success and ascension for the Republic and woe for our enemies.
The Consul does not plan constant conquest. Why would a man commit to a fortified border if that border was to move?
You have your opinion and if you feel a fortified border in Asia-Minor is NOT the best course of action then you are entitled to that opinion and I will accept that. Obviously, what I cannot accept is this constant “why haven’t we invaded Carthage” nonsense, and with the latest Consul reports perhaps you feel the same about that now?
However, Molon is dead, will you not join me in a goblet of wine at his destruction, to Senator Aureolus’s continued health and the fulfilled vengeance of the Republic against him?
Later we will debate what is the best course in the East until the crows fly high above the Senate building and the sparrows have laid themselves abed.
The cavalry were the only troops fast enough to arrive there to supress the unrest before a revolt took place. The Auxilia garrisons were moving to Tarentum for transport to Southern Greece where they would take over garrison duties from the expensive mercenaries. As to the Roman troops, I am unsure what you mean. Doubtless, there was a good reason for that as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Braden
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by Braden
Hooray ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Braden
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Braden
I'll definately second that :2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Braden
Good. Then it appears Senator Aemilius, we have reached an accord currently and hit upon a possible issue with regards the transition of power between Consuls.
The Senate should perhaps use this interim period to debate if there is a way that a Consuls “on-going” plans are better communicated to his successor to that there is no misunderstandings?
I trust that you know I will be drinking “with” you even though I am currently at sea. Besides the wine may steady my heaving stomach!
I do see a potential issue with Carthage. Should the Consul capture Carthago, what will he do? What should the Senate instruct him to do?
On the face of it, he has insufficient forces to hold the city but perhaps he is best to answer that question.
Personally, I feel it would be a sore shame and a reverse of his good fortune so far to abandon such a city as, like Byzantion before it, the city is such a prize as to be worth the keeping.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: The issue of Carthage is an interesting one. I agree with Manius that it might be best to try to hold the city until the arrival of the Consular army frees up the Consul to move once more. I would be interested to hear the First Consul's intentions on this.
Abandoning Thapsus is quite understandable, but perhaps we can hold walled Carthage? If the Consul's intention is to break the Carthaginian armies in combat, surely holding Carthage will bring them to him like moths to a candle?
Whilst we await a response from the Consul on what his plans may be for Carthago, I have been reviewing the Motions in effect for this Consulship and request an update from the Consul on a few matters.
Firstly, Motion #11.07 – I cannot recall, have the relevant constructions been started as yet to permit citizenship for Capua and Ancona as yet? The Economy is starting to regain its vigour and the funds should be allocated for this soon if they have not been already.
Motion #11.11 – I wondered how progress goes upon this Motion? Has this had a significant impact in our main cities yet?
Motion #11.13 – I am aware of the progress relating to this motion but am not aware about the allocation of Chirurgeons to the armies in the region?
UPS - I have received a letter from our consul. It appears that Servius has found the Cartago siege to be another Lepcis Magnian victory, the only defenders were a unit of Carthage's 'sacred band'. They were said to have fought bravely, but our victory suffered such minimal losses against such a pitiful garrison that writing a report would do nothing more than waste space.. however. He sends a message of deep concern to him for your review.
https://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a5...ts/ibnorth.jpg
These Iberian forces were encountered last season, they were hidden in the woods and blocked our way to establishing the proposed fort on the western river. They have not moved this season. Servius suggests a minor upgrade to the strength of the legion to try and appeal to their logic and see that a confrontation would benefit neither side.
https://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a5...lipboard10.jpg
The Iberian forces near our Comata fort are also of deep concern. The fort has not been besieged, but we feel quite strongly that they are trying to discern the legion's strength. The consul would like to up the garrison with mercenaries until the Iberians move on, at which point it will be upgraded to a full consular sized legion.
Oh, and due to the significant number of developments this season, the consul has been considering releasing yet another report, although somewhat early, he feels the circumstances warrant such.
(OOC - Much has happened since the last report at the beginning of the summer season, so I'll announce later tonight when I've put up the next report, I'd like to get a few more things done before then, but I'll let everybody know in the ooc thread when it's ready.)
This development worries me somewhat. Recall that the Macedonians made several incursions into our territory before launching an actual invasion. They may be looking for weak spots. I would recommend concentrating forces as much as possible, as they may not be able to resist attacking a weak force if they come across one, if their intention is indeed to get into a war.
May I ask the consul to post a map of as much of the current world as we know of along with his new report? The situation on other wars, such as the Iberia vs Germania war will be invaluabe to this house.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Praetor Corucanius makes a valid point, but we should recall that ultimately facing off with Macedonia did not avert war. I was but a youth at the time, but I believe they struck at a weak spot - perhaps even a settlement - well away from where we were confronting their most provocative moves. If so, I would advise that each province bordering Iberia have a significant force of men, so there are no easy pickings. [occ: in MTW, the AI would attack if your force in a border province was weak - maybe RTW is the same?]
I would also recommend that we move at least one and preferably two Lower House generals to Gaul to face off against a potential Iberian incursion. I am not up to date on their current location and assignments, but I wonder if Qintus Libo and/or Valerius Paullus are best positioned to assume such a duty? While deterrence must be the priority, we should also prepare for the contingency of war. A competent general might be able to defeat a much larger Iberian army, whereas otherwise we could lose an entire legion in a sneak attack.
We are sorely missing Augustus Verginius from the Lower House, but nevertheless, I ask that my father-in-law be moved away from immediate danger. It would be a poor end to an illustrious career if he were killed while attending to civic duties. (ooc: die in an autoresolve).
I would end by saying that we should not be over-alarmed by the Iberian movements. My astrologer and the augurs have not predicted imminent war with that faction, although I admit their vision is not always perfect. Iberia is still locked in a war with Germania. And we, as a Republic, are considerably more powerful than she. Iberia may prefer to focus on the conflict to her north, so long as we to her east do not appear weak.
UPS - We know nothing of the war between Iberia and Germania, other than that it is still occurring. We have no spies, diplomats or other men with significant enough knowledge in that area, or any area outside of direct Roman interest, to provide anything more than the maps which are currently available in the consular reports. If there is a quick responce to this issue that doesn't require an inordinate amount of seasonal income, I will propose a resolution to this problem to the consul.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: In the absence of the Senate Librarian, I asked one his scribes to compile some simple information on our situation relative to our rivals.
As you can see, we have overtaken Seleucia as the pre-eminent power in the known world:
http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/3...llsu254jv4.jpg
You can also see the dramatic effect of our recent victories over Seleucia on the balance of power:
http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/2...rysu254th2.jpg
However, it should be noted that our military power is still only a third of that of all our enemies combined.
Conquests have made us the most populous faction:
http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/7020/popsu254mx4.jpg
Our number of provinces has risen at a rapid rate since the end of the Apollonia mission and the vigorous prosecution of war into Greece and beyond:
https://img301.imageshack.us/img301/...ndsu254iu0.jpg
The loss of trade income following war with Ptolemy and Seleucia has affected all three parties:
http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/5...cesu254ox8.jpg
The present First Consul has made progress in improving our balance. However, Seleucia appears to have bounced back to an alarming degree. This suggests that, while we may have crushed her armies in the field, she has the resources to replace them and come back at us in strength. Ptolemy has not recovered, while Iberia and Carthage earn significantly less than we do.
After a very shallow period following the outbreak of war with Macedon, Illyria and Thrace, we do appear to be producing more: (ooc - is this buildings or what?)
http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/9...onsu254ok8.jpg
The graphs also reveal something on the state of the Germano-Iberian conflict. There appears to be something of a territorial impasse, although Iberia's military rises while that of Germania falls.
Many thanks, Numerius. I am sure I speak for all present when I this information will help us gather a better picture of the world, no matter how removed we may be physically from the front lines.
Well well senators, what have we here? After I return to Rome I hear of this kind of behaviour by our barbarian neighbours. The senate was foolish to neglect the Iberian threat, and now they seem to have picked the perfect moment to strike, when our troops are trapped in the deserts of Africa and fighting the Greeks iin the Asia Minor region.
Personally, my point of view (if members of this august body respect it) is that the wars must be brought to a halt. Our holdings have extended too far in the East, and our merchants are running riot far away from the reach of the law, growing ever more corrupt, reckless and extravagant the deeper we go into the Greek lands. The Carthaginian campaign is a worthy one, though, I must say. These barbaric people are too powerful and too close to our lands for my liking, and the threat from them should be neutralised, as must that of the Iberian scum.
I am confident that the Greeks will see the reasoning and logic behind this proposal, and will too want to sue for peace, and resume normal relations. Our economy should skyrocket if this should happen, and our citizens will be able to live in peace, not needing to fear the Greeks.
THEN STOP MAKING MORE COMPLICATIONS BY INVADING TERRITORY WE DON'T NEED TO INVADE!!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Consular report
AT LAST!!! By the gods, AT LAST!!!!! It has finally penetrated into that golden-haired head of yours that Seleucia has a vast empire with limitless resources. Furthermore their empire, unlike our empire is a homogenous and well-developed one with every province able to contribute a wide range of troops.Quote:
Originally Posted by econ21
How many times have I and others warned about this? And how many times have Numerius Aureolus and Servius Aemlius and Manius Coruncanius listened to these warnings? I'll tell you how many times oh noble Senators of the greater Roman Empire - not once! Time and again my pointing this out has been ignored. Until now. Clearly Numerius has stopped daydreaming about his own beauty or his next conquest long enough to actually think about the wider picture.
And to boot, we now have a nervous Consul and others wringing their hands about Iberia. Again, HOW MANY TIMES DID I WARN ABOUT THIS AND WAS IGNORED??????
I give up Senators, I give up. Numerius, feel free to conquer every city between Byzantion and the Indian Ocean, I won't stand in your way. I may even propose it at the next session of the Senate. But I might enjoy watching you weep when there is nowhere else left to conquer.
*rips off Senatorial toga and storms out of the house*
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]:
Senator, this is is not exactly news to me:Quote:
Originally Posted by Valerius Paullus
The point is what do we do about it? My proposal is that we make the Seleucid Empire a little less vast and their resources a little more limited. But apparently that is just crazy talk.Quote:
Originally Posted by Numerius Aureolus
I am shocked by the words of Senator Valerius Paullus, he calls our beloved Republic an “Empire”?? Why does he think so…..
We are no “Empire”, WE do not and have not initiated these wars….but sure as the sun arises each day by Jupiters grace we will certainly FINISH these wars!
Senators, does Senator Paullus forget that all we have strived for is Peace and that at every turn we are turned back from our neighbours who covet our cities and our coin. Our Diplomats have long sought peaceful resolution to the issues we have around us but we constantly find that the ONLY talk that is understood by our enemies is the singing voice of a swinging sword!
Iberia has NOT being ignored, forts were built to defend our borders against her and may I remind the Senate that although Iberia appears “threatening” and certainly is an issue the Consul is aware of, Iberia has yet to launch any attacks against us. With the bravado so common with the Barbarians of the North, the Iberians constantly foray into our lands and return safely home to speak tales of how “brave” they were, how “successful” as warriors they are and needless to say how Large their Testiscolos are….
One day, perhaps, they will have built sufficient false bravado, or enlarged their Testis enough, from their own stories that they tell around the fires in their barbarian hovels to actually ACT upon them and strike at us, but let me say this….we will be ready.
We are unwilling, and rightly so, to pre-emptively strike against Iberia whilst they remain neutral to us. It is also needless whilst they remain nothing more than bluster and hot air. If or when they prove themselves more than that, I will be happy to be re-assigned to aid in their destruction as we did their fellows in Gaul. Also, let me remind the Senator that Iberia is still stuck in a long and protracted war with our Allies the Germains.
Suffice to say that we cannot act or re-enforce if we do not know WHERE to act or re-enforce. All we can do is build fortifications and wait. The Consul has announced plans for at least one Consular sized formation in the region, I feel the Senate should be content that he is aware of an dealing with the situation in the West.
The Situation in the East will be finished soon enough. As Numerius Aureolus suggests, we act to reduce the threat now and the threat in the future. Not only from Seleucia but also the Ptolomites. Perhaps when they have both been shown the full force of our wrath will they succumb to a negotiated peace……history tells us this will still not work, but I always live in hope.
Senator Paullus, your warnings have not gone unheeded, perhaps you would feel happier if we initiated a strike against Iberia and stop all this nonsense? Perhaps you would feel happier when more legions are in place? However, as I have stated time and again, the building of new legions takes time and coin….many Senators appear to have insufficient funds of one but an excess of the latter.
I am happy to say that with our Current Consul we are fighting but ONE war. The War against Seleucia but through that we will chastise not only them but also the Ptolomites.
What of Carthage, you say. Isn’t that a war…..well Senators, how can it be a war when we so easily capture their own Capital city? How can it be a war when our Consul, with but a handful of Roman cohorts has managed to out flank and out fight forces near twice his size? Soon, another Legion will land and that “war” will be all but over.
Soon the war against Seleucia will be over and our borders re-defined so that they and the Ptolomites are FORCED to recognise we have the Gods GIVEN right for peace!
(writing while on march to the southern harbour)
To our Noble Senators,
It is clear that there are two camps who are skirmishing in our very own Senate: those who wish to prosecute the war against Seleucia, and those who wish in the main to hold what fronts we have and focus on internal matters.
Does anyone know how long it would take to reach an acceptable level of internal stability? And how is that acceptability to be defined?
I do not ask rhetorically. There must be an answer to these questions, and I think in fact we *need* clear answers to these questions. The First Consul has draw a clear line in the sands of Asia Minor. Perhaps it is my inexperience which prevents me from seeing clearly, but those opposed to him have yet to clearly define that which they desire, except that they desire the Senate to put a halt to the Consul's plans.
If no one knows the answer to these questions, I will have some of my staff pursue an answer in the Senate libraries.
Vale.
(staff of Appius Barbatus)
Revered Senate,
I lay before you the figures requested by Senator Barbatus.
To bring a province from enslavement to the production of troops requires a total of nine years and three seasons, at a cost of 27000 denarii. This shows the citizens and slaves that we are here to stay, and brings some basic order to the province (ooc: +15%)
To honour the Gods fitly by destroying all foreign temples and building Roman Shrines and then Minor Temples in their place requires two years, at a cost of 4800 denarii. This provides a significant benefit to the order in a province over time (ooc: +40%)
To provide basic sanitation by providing sewers takes one year and one season, at a cost of 3500 denarii, with a slight increase in public order (ooc: +5%)
To provide entertainment to the populace by building an Odeon requires one year and one season, at a cost of 8000 denarii. An Odeon, though expensive, has the greatest impact on order in a province of any single building project (ooc: +10%). Especially in Greece where they like this sort of thing.
To bring all of these things to a province would require fourteen years and one season, at a total cost of just over 43000 denarii.
Senator Barbatus leaves it to the opponents of Consul Aemilius' plans to outline how many cities they would wish to bring to the level of producing troops in Greece and Asia Minor before further expansion, and if an acceptable level of development would also include honouring the gods and providing for the health and public order of provinces.
If I may direct you gentlemen to another motion Senator Aureolus has proposed:
As you may recall, this motion was passed by an 11-1 margin, with myself being the sole dissent. However, it seems as if now, there are more dissenting voices to the motion, mainly our esteemed Consul.Quote:
Originally Posted by Numerius Aureolus
Now, let's look at the recent results of the Expedition. Lepcis Magna and Thapsus taken, and subsequently lost. While I admit that Lepcis Magna was lost through no fault of the Consul's, Thapsus was captured, its people enslaved, and it was back in the hands of Carthage two seasons later. Sounds like a raid to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Motion 11.19
I want to hear no talk about how it was a poorly-worded motion, or how that the Consul did it for the greater good. The fact is, that Servius Aemilius has broken the letter of the law, and the letter of the law is what counts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Consular Report
I shall leave it up to this august body as to decide the punishment.
UPS - The 'peace party' does not care about those numbers senator Appius. They think denarii grow on trees and can be plucked from their branches like olives whenever we need them. On the other hand, Servius does, and has taken the most beneficial approach by spreading our public order constructs throughout the whole of the region as efficiently as possible, as well as isolating our most prominant choices for troop recruitment as quickly as possible. Though they will only provide alae at first, having auxilial recruitment centers far from the heart of Rome is better than having nothing out their at all, a situation that they chronically complain of.
And as far as Valerius Paullus's rantings. There is no way that this man, behaving the way he has, can expect us to respect his opinion, or, for that matter, even believe that he truly is an advocate of peace and prosperity, when his own personal behavior has him screaming like a mad man and throwing his toga at the senate. There is a blatant air of jealousy here, because the falsely named "peace party" did not get its way with the election of consul Servius. And this fact shines through brightly in Paullus's behavior.
EDIT - It is true that Thapsus had been momentarily devoid of Roman troops so that Cartago could be taken. However, we have visible, undeniable proof that the settlement was not actually 'abandoned', but was bribed back by Carthage before it could be re-garrisoned. Therefore, the law was never broken because the settlement was bribed away from our hands before it could actually revolt, and be considered abandoned by Roman hands. Perhaps we should punish Marcellus for conspiring to untruthfully implicate the consul in the breaking of a senatorial motion, or otherwise just behaving as a fool, and a poor supporter of his own family. And another thing, our intention is most certainly to take and hold Thapsus by the end of this consular reign. The motion makes no distinction that a settlement must be held at all costs from the very moment it is taken. The motion specifically states - Any campaign. Our operations in Afrika as a whole constitute a campaign, yes, our operations in Afrika are aimed at permament occupation, yes. Can the unforetunat loss of one settlement, momentarily due to bribery, that will be returned to as soon as possible, constitute a breach of the intentions of the campaign? No.
Ah, so you only had the intention of breaking Roman law and defying the will of the Senate. My mistake.
As for the definition of "campaign," it still does not matter. The point of the law was to take and hold Carthaginian settlements when they were most valuable to us. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a Thapsus with half the population and much less buildings of worth is less valuable to us than a Thapsus that was never conquered.
As for me not supporting my family, I don't want to hear it. You, Servius, decided to oppose me for Consul after I had declared my candidacy (informally, but still). You openly defied the wishes of the Aemilii by further expanding the Eastern border. You openly call Valerius Paullus, an Aemilius by marriage, raving mad when your own father is a certified lunatic. You search for ways to exploit loopholes in motions in order to further the glories won by your puppeteer, Numerius Aureolus. As far as I am concerned, you sir, are a treacherous dog and not worthy of the name Aemilius.
Actually it is exactly for economic reasons that I am opposed to needless extra expansion into Seleucid territory. It would say it is the 'war party' that believes gold will rain from the sky. I take the long term view.
Consider, each conquered town will provide income, but will need massive investments over a very long period of time before it is a stable, loyal, town with taxes set on high.
Also, the more territory we acquire the more troops and ships we will need to guard it all, at a large financial cost, both in recruitment and maintenance.
The more of these rebellious towns we acquire, the thinner the meager financial resources we have will be spread. Meanhwile the populations in all the towns will continue to grow, forcing us to lower taxes to keep the unrest under control, lowering out resources even more and incidentally increasing the growth rate of the population, so it will quickly require another drop in taxes.
For myself, I would be satisfied enough with the internal stability of the Republic to warrant expansion if the majority of the cities (especially the large ones like Athens, Corinth, Pella and Thessalonica) have been stabilized so far that we can leave a two-unit garrison and still be able to set the taxes on high.
I appreciate the clear answer that Senator Lucius Aemilius has given. And I think the Senator brings up a valid concern, that financial gains will not be won by conquest alone. It is conquest coupled with builders, merchants, and garrisons that bring the great financial rewards we seek.
Putting aside for the moment the Seleucid army and their raids, I think that it could be beneficial to consider which is the better option financially in the case at hand. Will we gain more financial control from conquest, or from consolidation? Stabilising cities until they can be left with a two-unit garrison is indeed ideal. However, at what cost and how many consulships in the future will that be reality? Would expanding our borders bring in greater income in a shorter time?
Certainly these questions are not subject to Xeno's paradox. I will order my staff's wheat counters to double their efforts and consider this along with their other duties.
Currently the History of our Republic has been thus:
We are at peace and building for our betterment, then we are attacked or directly threatened so we respond until that threat has been neutralised, then we start to build again.
Until such times as those states around us acknowledge that we are not war-mongers but only respond to what pressures they exert against our own safety then I foresee that this circle of development, interrupted with warfare then followed by development again will continue.
It does not take a Greek to understand which segment of this cycle we are in currently.
OOC : It's impossible for me to argue with this argument. As long as we keep running this game on VH/M we will need to expand continuously according to your argument as they will never offer peace on this setting.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Senator Marcellus Aemilius seeks to use one of my motions to impugn the integrity of the First Consul. But my motion was worded quite precisely: it speaks of the aim of the campaign. When Marcellus's Consular army arrives, I am sure we will see the conquest of Afrika underway in full.
But taking Carthage already with what was only a Praetorian army in far away Lepcis Magna is a significant coup for the First Consul. It would not have been possible if Thapsus had had to be defended against multiple Carthaginian armies. Moreover, I believe Thapsus was not raided - no buildings that could be of any use to us were destroyed.
If Carthage were abandoned, I would have some sympathy with Marcellus. But as it is, I fear what we are seeing is sour grapes from the loser of the last election. I confess I do not understand this embittered stance - Marcellus has been given command of a Consular army and is about to launch a significant campaign; he can also stand for election as the successor to the current First Consul.