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Retouched PROMETHEUS's Numidian units and reskinned the Numidian Slinger:
Numidian Cavalry (removed harness on the horse and minor touches in the tunic and shield):
http://img69.exs.cx/img69/8449/forum...ianumidian.jpg
Numidian Javelinmen (minor touches in the tunic and shield):
http://img147.exs.cx/img147/8449/for...ianumidian.jpg
Numidian Slingers (new skin reworked from PROMETHEUS's Numidian Javelinmen skin):
http://img147.exs.cx/img147/7166/for...anumidian1.jpg
Aw...
Nice.
Nice, indeed.
I was getting worried that you guys weren't going to post any more screenshots!
Thanks! ~:cheers:
In that case ..here's a Belgae unit in progress
https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/1belgae.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by PROMETHEUS
Are you guys ditching the blue shield and going with faction colors?
Quote:
Originally Posted by PROMETHEUS
Why do the Sacred band infantry and calvary both have the Greek style meander pattern on thier shield edges? I was unaware that it was ever used in Carathage expect perhaps by hire mercs, which the Sacred Band obviously aren't.
I think you should add beard to them (slightly, as on my avatar's pic ~:) ). 'Cause on Numidians coins and on Roman depictions Numidians always have beard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aymar de Bois Mauri
Do you plan on naming the units things like Northern Warband, Liby-Phoenician Heavy Infantry and Iberian Infantry or something closer to what the Guals or Carths would actually have referred to them as? Maybe just 'Heavy Spearman' in whatever lang you're using for Carth (I'd guess Hebrew).
Just for the Romans because of their similar units.Quote:
Originally Posted by QwertyMIDX
A lapse by PROMETHEUS. Some details still need to be worked out.Quote:
Originally Posted by QwertyMIDX
Are you sure? Most of this graphical work was based on this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Moroz
http://img23.exs.cx/img23/6866/numidianhorse.jpg
Although you might have a point if we look to this:
http://img23.exs.cx/img23/5164/numidians.jpg
We plan to name the units as accuratelly as possible regarding current knowledge of ancient languages...Quote:
Originally Posted by QwertyMIDX
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aymar de Bois Mauri
I assume that this means EB is keeping the Roman families game system even though it is completely out of whack for the early time period of the game. Is there no better way of dealing this?
Just out of curiosity, did you know from elsewhere that we were planning on using Hebrew for Phoenician-Punic in names and the voices, or did you guess on your own? If so, what is your background? That was something we weren't planning on until speaking to one of the world's foremost experts in Phoenician-Punic.Quote:
Originally Posted by QwertyMIDX
This hasn't been decided yet. We are at an impasse here, for the moment. We are testing several different options.Quote:
Originally Posted by QwertyMIDX
Well the language spoken by the Carths would have been of the Canaanite branch of Semitic languages of which Hebrew is a part. I figured it would a lot easier to find someone who could speak Hebrew than someone could be speak say Punic (which as far as I know was pretty much finished as a language by the end of the 5th or 6th century A.D.) and it would probably be just as accurate as any thing that could be scraped together from ancient sources.
I don't really have any background I'm just a 1st year History student at McGill (I'm not even doing ancient history I'm doing English speaking peoples) I just happen to be something of a history nerd.
What do you think half of the EB guys are?.... :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by QwertyMIDX
Oh I know, I can tell when I'm among my own ~;). Unfortunately I'm pretty sure Khelvan was hoping for slightly more impressive credentials. I'd be happy to try and help if you'd like though, although I’m pretty sure most of the historical research I could be helpful with has already been completed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aymar de Bois Mauri
You gotta use primary sources, man. :whip: ~:smoking:Quote:
Originally Posted by Aymar de Bois Mauri
http://img106.exs.cx/img106/8958/numa12yb.jpg
http://img106.exs.cx/img106/4655/numa25uy.jpg
http://img106.exs.cx/img106/2815/numa31ru.jpg
http://img106.exs.cx/img106/4480/numa43ad.jpg
http://img106.exs.cx/img106/9105/numa52fm.jpg
I agree with that. What's the point of posting book illustrations. They don't really represent real life.
what really represents real life? we are talking about ancient times. not close future or current time period.
it is very hard to reflect ancient times like a mirror. ~:handball:
https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/1Helvetii.jpg
Mori Gaesum (Helvetii) by Prom.
Helvetii? Aren't those rebels? Wow, are you making different skins for all the rebel factions too??
Of course. That's one of the main big things of this mod.
I did not know that. I thought they would be generic like in the original game. Personally, since I'm lazy probably, I would have thought it to be too much work to redesign every single rebel faction but apparently you don't and for that I thank you. ~:cheers:
There will be NOTHING generic about EB :) We're trying to put as much detail as is possible, given certain restrictions CA puts on us (limit on number of units, no new factions, etc.)
LOL :grin: Read the text, DM!!! Just read the text... :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Moroz
Beautifull rework of texture, PSYCHO!!! :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by PSYCHO V
I can't wait to play R:TW with actual distinct units instead of having "spear warband" as the main unit for all barbs from Gual to Dacia. Not to mention barbs that can actually fight with the Romans instead of playing Mordor and attacking with endless ork legions.
Far be it from me to ponder such things, but if the actual column, built by Romans who actually fought the numidians, is based on heresay, then what is that osprey drawing based on?Quote:
LOL Read the text, DM!!! Just read the text...
Anyways, keep up the good work!
Crazed Rabbit
Osprey isn't actually too accurate much of the time. A lot of Osprey can be stylized or simply wrong sometimes, so we only use it as a source if none others can be found. We've been able to make some very good units though, with plenty of primary and reliable secondary sources to base things from. Osprey is a last resort, and Roman accounts aren't always all too accurate either (like 'lazy Gauls' in Carthaginian armies, despite their statements, right beforehand, how hard the Gauls were working for the Carthaginians). We can usually (but not always),find better sources, archaeological as well as textual, for the units and armies.
Like Ranika posted, we use all highly reliable historical sources before consulting other material. Rest assured it will be accurate. In EB, we are ready to recognize when another person, also investigating the issue, has found a more reliable source that contradicts the ones we have. All for the sake of Historical accuracy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
I was just teasing Dead Moroz. :joker:
Thanks. We will... ~:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
version 1
http://img139.exs.cx/img139/2059/earlylegion4pk.jpg
Version 2
http://img101.exs.cx/img101/8563/legionary26vy.jpg
Ok I would like to know opinions on the following changes I made and what looks more realistic between version 1 and 2 , apart from the shield that now has the proper form that should have....
Things changed
1 shield
2 mail hauberk
3 face
4 scabbard
Welcome back, PROMETHEUS!!! ~:wave:
Regarding the unit:
-Why change the hauberk pattern?
-Face too blurry.
-On both models (in fact, on all Roman models) the scabard is too thin for the gladius they hold. Thicken the scabard a little.
Nothing else...
Ok but the mail pattern I made has a deeper fitted trama that was used at the time the one of the game instead has rings as large as fingers , also the colour scheme is more realistic to my opinion and the directions of the lines follow more the body in the second version .... but of course I need opinions, the shield is better like is now , more close to the originals , also the scabbard is taken by the sword so has the same size of it ...for the face , yes is more blurry but isn't more realistic this?
http://img64.exs.cx/img64/9853/1promii7vg.jpg
new version slightly modified by Psicho V....
OK. After reading your explanation I agree with the mail pattern change.Quote:
Originally Posted by PROMETHEUS
IMHO, the shield is perfect now.Quote:
Originally Posted by PROMETHEUS
I opened your models in MAX and it didn't seem so. It seemed rather thin. Maybe that was because of the texture being a bit small.Quote:
Originally Posted by PROMETHEUS
Besides, the scabard should be larger than the sword to be able to hold it. Or else it wouldn't fit. :wink:
Nope. I don't agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by PROMETHEUS
I see no difference except for the face. And the less blurry the face, the better.Quote:
Originally Posted by PROMETHEUS
Ok this later version slightly modified by Psicho is a less "rusty" version , personally I think a more rusty version adds realism and should be used for all the other mail textures but I would like to understand if this is just a question of tastes or it would be better to favour a rusty one or a more polished one? Neitherless to say that I still have to add some lighter parts on the abdomen abd backs...Quote:
I see no difference except for the face. And the less blurry the face, the better
I think what Aymar is trying to say is, use your version for the body, and Psycho's version for the face, and then it will be just right...
That is not PSYCHO's face. That is RTW's vannila face. PSYCHO probally reduced the amount of "dirt" in the texture.Quote:
Originally Posted by eadingas
I personnaly would go for more dirt but with the standard RTW face. At least until a better one can be made.
I like chain mail in version 1. It looks really like chain mail. It's really metallic. In version 2 it looks like strange, very wide felt wear. ~:confused: And legionaries now looks like Chinese warriors. You gotta sell your texture to that Chinese mod, Prom. ~;)
The face in version 2 is too blurry indeed.
I seen reenactors with mail as dark as (2), then again I've seen lighter mail like (1) as well, which additionally tends to be depicted most often in Osprey style illustrations.
Ok here there are 4 version , in order
http://img136.exs.cx/img136/9646/versions9kj.jpg
version not rusty and with highlights
version not rusty less shiny
version rusty , more dark
version of CA
I think the third version looks more realistic...
remember that the mail trama of CA is on my opinion too large since every ring seems to be as large as one finger....
About the shield. It almost looks as if it's been folded in the middle. Is it possible to make the center line a little more 'rounded' maybe?Quote:
Originally Posted by PROMETHEUS
I repost here this one couse the page changed , about your point on shield you are right I will probably fix it as I have more time.....
Ok here there are 4 version , in order
http://img136.exs.cx/img136/9646/versions9kj.jpg
version not rusty and with highlights
version not rusty less shiny
version rusty , more dark
version of CA
I think the third version looks more realistic...
remember that the mail trama of CA is on my opinion too large since every ring seems to be as large as one finger....
I think the first version, non-rust w/highlights, looks the best with CA's default textures a close second. The second non-rust textures look good but are too dark. The third rusty, darkened version is way too dark. When zoomed out the darker versions will invariably lose their mail pattern and look more like gray or black leather than mail. I think the details on the third one will simply disappear when viewed from anything beyond 25 yards or so.
AFAIK, chain mail wasn't really know for accumulating much rust or dirt because throughout the course of the day constant movement and friction would prevent rust and other particles from taking hold on the links. Furthermore and perhaps more importantly, no Centurion worth his salt would let his men allow their armor to become so dilapidated, rusted and filthy. These are professional soldiers, not dodgy mercenaries or disillusioned conscripts.
BTW, superb work Prometheus.
Kudos to the EB team on their mod. I'm not going anywhere near RTR but I'm definitely drooling in anticipation of EB's release.
Edit - Oops, my mistake. I just realized these are pre-Marian legionaries (Principes) and therefore not professional soldiers. However my assertion still stands, especially in light of the fact that pre-Marian legionaries bought and maintained their own equipment. I think it's safe to say that the act of letting an expensive suit of chain mail go to pot was only for the rich or apathetic.
Prom, I like the first one, but I have one small gripe. Could you blend it a little more, try to make those quite obvious lines go away?
I LOVE the new shields. They're perfect.
http://img133.exs.cx/img133/3803/a1vm.jpg
Ok New triaria with shield and new mail...
Nice!!
Just one detal missing: the helm is pointier (slightly more oval on top).
Prometheus, those swords on the Triarii are just for show, right? Or have we solved the non-phalanx spear/sword bug?
Yes show...
very nice :)
http://img64.exs.cx/img64/9853/1promii7vg.jpg
Actually, that one is the original. Sorry probably confused you becasue I named the original II and the moded one IQuote:
new version slightly modified by Psicho V.... - Prom
This was the one I did no? (left) ..or did you add further highlights? http://img136.exs.cx/img136/9646/versions9kj.jpg
Anyway, the one on the left is the one I like. Though I wouldn't make the mail quite so long / low
my2bob
Beautiful Triarii !! great mail and shield
again I'd shorten the mail to about half of what it is currently below the belt.
No i guess i don't have anymore ur version couse i used urs to increase and play around with saturations and similar stuff to add severall layers of enlighted parts onthe front sides....Quote:
Actually, that one is the original. Sorry probably confused you becasue I named the original II and the moded one I
Aslo about the longness of the mail shirts I have still to decide looking at the sculptures....
For the moment this makes reference...
http://www.slitherine.co.uk/Legion/Images/triarii2.jpg
Great work Prometheus.
However, seeing as we're beinmg historically accurate, down to the Augustan period the balteus, (the belt and apron combination) was NOT worn. Earlier legionaries (probably for these purposes any equipped with mail) used two crossed belts, one for dagger and one for gladius.
lorica hamata was pretty much self cleaning if worn regularly, so there shouldn't be any rust unless you're making undead hordes...
I like #4. CA's chain mail together with Prometheus' work is the best!
I don't think it should be rusty. Early Roman army consisted of well-to-do citizens. They didn't spent all their life in wars. War for them was "event". I'm sure they could allow themselves to preserve their armour well between wars and to clean it before campaign. Don't forget that in all times military uniform was something like fetish for humans. Every military man wants to looks as "pretty" as it possible in his uniform.
Their chain mails were relatively new. Because every chain mail is fitted for certain figure, so the armour of father could not be suited for his son and son had to buy his own new shiny chain mail.
Now, think about gameplay, guys. Most of time you'll look at battle from the bird's eye view or something quite distant from units line. I'm sure that dark chain mail with small rings will looks very strange and obscure.
Moreover this new chain mail doesn't even looks like chain mail. Imho. It looks something like warm fluffy sweater... At least like lamellar armour (that's why I think it looks Chinese).
There's some great stuff going on here and I'm really looking forward to the results. I hope what follows is OK as this is my first post here! ~:cheers:
First of all the chainmail, I think the balance between light and dark is spot on in the first and last pictures of the 4. Chainmail would have been very lightly oiled to protect it from corrosion which would eventually occur even if the mail was constantly in use. This results in a gunmetal type colour (mid-dark metallic grey) with and surfaces exposed to rubbing being lighter. Sometimes you will see re-enactors with very bright (sometimes shiny, sometimes dull) chainmail, this is due to them using galvanised (or stainless in the case of the shiny stuff) wire to make the chainmail with, which is totally inaccurate. The thing I'm a bit uncomfortable with is the bands of pieces of chainmail in the left hand picture. As far as I can remember Roman and Celtic chainmail at least wasn't constructed in that way during the period but I could be wrong as I *think* have seen some a statue with similar patterns but I could be confused on that point. In any case it certainly wasn't the norm. I'll have a dig around and see if I can find any information. I do agree though that the CA has the links looking much too large and it looks like yet another different method of chainmail construction. Oh and chainmail can be quite easily tailored for different people as it's possible to add and remove sections. Several surviving examples have areas where this has occured. That said without the technology to mass-produce thin wire, not to mention the very labour intensive 'knitting' process, these were fantastically expensive items.
Another comment I have is on the Gallic and British troops. One of the main reasons that the Romans did so well is that they were extremely well equipped throughout their armies. Things like helmets (iron especially and also bronze) and chainmail were very high status items and would have only been owned by a small proportion of Celtic warriors. Personally I think it would be much better if they were removed from all the troops and given only to officer, standard bearer and general figures. I don't know much about the Helvetii but I think the same thing would apply to them - to my eyes that looks like a phalanx of kings. Oh and the knotwork Celtic pattern you have on one of the British units is early medieval.
Like I said I hope that doesn't come across as too negative, but I'm guessing that some suggestions are more useful than pages of me going - oo cool!
Have fun
Finn
About the lines that the mail has this is an optical effect that mail suits make to distance is due to the weight and orientation of the small rings...http://www.larp.com/legioxx/jason.jpghttp://img136.exs.cx/img136/9646/versions9kj.jpg
Also comparing a real one with the second the second looks more close , the reflections will be made via gloss files and isn't that shiny the mail on the man in fulldaylight, while the roman samples are in a shadow of a hill...
Moroz
Chineese troops used very large squares of embossed leather for armours as seeableon the replicas of clay of Chinese soldiers in the tomb of the first emperor ...
http://www.larp.com/legioxx/EDSmail1th.jpg
here are
Samples of reproduction mail. Those at top were made by Erik D. Schmid. The finer one on the left can be considered very typical of Roman mail, with rings just under 7 mm in outside diameter. The riveted rings are made from round-section wire but have been slightly flattened. The sample at upper right was graciously donated by Arthur Hendrick. The punched rings are about 7/16" outer diameter and 5/16" inner diameter, and are about 1/16" thick. The riveted rings are made from iron wire of about 1 mm diameter.
Erik points out that the rings are too large to be typical, and their ends overlap right-over-left while all the Roman samples he has seen overlap left-over-right. We will still consider mail of this quality to be very acceptable for our purposes!
here an original one...
http://www.armatura.connectfree.co.uk/arma/mail2.jpg
I've seen mail on numerous occasions both up close and at a distance (having been in a reenactment group years ago) and I haven't seen the sectional effect you have in your texture. Here's a link to the Ermine Street Guard (who are a reenactment group at the more historical end of the spectrum) website where you'll see numerous pictures of chainmail:
http://www.esg.ndirect.co.uk/Images.htm
Allowing for the fact that some of their guys could probably lose a pound or two ;-) there's no evidence of a panelled effect at all. The picture you show shows more of a computer moire effect than anything else, the different colours coming from sections of chainmail polished to different degrees and then linked together - again no dark lines delineating horizontal sections.
I have seen pictures of mail with the sectional effect you have but not those made in the Western style.
Have fun
Finn
Sorry may be you didn't saw well couse even in those pics there can be seen lines ... and those are from the site you posted....
http://www.esg.ndirect.co.uk/Archive.../auxil_jpg.jpg
http://www.esg.ndirect.co.uk/Auxilia...s%2020_JPG.jpg
http://www.esg.ndirect.co.uk/Auxilia...r%2002_JPG.gif
Is it possible to give the feathers from the helmet of the triarii another colour? Acording to Polybius they wear black feathers, it certainly would help to distinct the helmet decoration better.
greetings...
To my eyes the pictures you've shown show exactly the difference I'm talking about. Here's one side-by-side with your skin:
http://www.warillustrated.com/misc/mailcompare.jpg
Notice how you have widely spaced dark bands which are missing from the above pics. The lines you see in the reenactors' pics above are from individual rows of links which form a sort of corrugated texture whereas yours seem to indicate something different. I only bring this up as there is another way of making armour which does result in exactly the banding you're drawing in.
Have fun
Finn
I think the image of the units u posted for comparison is too big , tough placing the same texture on a 512 512 texture type would reduce the sensation of the lines and give a better look to the units ... will try to increase the size to have a high res version to use then to rescale to a 256 256 one....
If someone is interested in making an important unit from August's twelve year Cantabrian wars in the north of Hispania, this is how Cantabrian warriors should look like. OK, it's not a Rembrandt, but not bad for a 3 minute picture. BTW, all clothes should be leather and bear fur, long hair was held in a tie in TOP of head, and large round shield was wooden. The motif I've chosen is a popular one in ancient Cantabrian stone estelles. BTW, Cantabrian light horse riding javelinmen -the ones who used Cantabrian circle- should look similar, but w/o shield.
http://premium1.uploadit.org/DuxCorvan/Cantabrian.jpg
I am 99% positive that Aymar and the other Iberian fanatics have this covered in spades. However, I am sure the drawing will be good material for them to draw ideas about coloring and such, though I notice in our forums there are a ton of ideas about the Iberian units such as the Cantabrii already (Aymar went nuts!). :bow:
Just out of curiosity, from what do you draw your inspiration?
Hairstyle was described by Strabo himself. Garments and weaponry are described by Titus Livius, as quoted by Orosian.Quote:
Originally Posted by khelvan
They used javelins, short swords and double axes. One Cantabrian warrior, Larus, was well-known by his skill with double axe. A leader, Corocotta, knowing the romans offered a reward for his capture, went to ask it himself.
We also have warrior depictings based on ancient stone round estelles that are found all over the territory. They marked the proximity of a Cantabrian castrum .
http://www.cantabriajoven.com/arte/f...ela_zurita.jpg
Sun symbol motifs of the shields could be inspired by these monuments:
http://www.cantabriajoven.com/corral...os/estela2.jpg
http://www.cantabriajoven.com/arte/fotos/estela.jpg
http://www.cantabriajoven.com/arte/fotos/estela2.jpg
Hey everyone, can you guys change the greek hoplite units? I hate how they all have the horsehair on their helmets. The real hoplites really rarely had horsehair on the helmets. Can you guys change the plain hoplites with this kind of helmet?http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~perlman/history/5war6.jpg
And also can you consider this cuirass? http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images...992.180.3a.jpg
No. That helm is totally out of date. No one would have used a Cornithean helm! And that cuirass looks more for show than battle.
Well, the Greeks did use muscled bronze cuirasses, and of course the Corinthian helm, but this is at least a century outside of the time frame we're depicting, unfortunately.
I'll look into how long the muscled bronze cuirass was used, but I suspect it had all but disappeared en lieu of linen by our time frame.
Dude I didn't say all of them whould have that kind of helmet. It's not really that out of date. My point was remove the horsehair, I don't care about the style being exactly the same as the picture. That was just an example. Ok here's a perfect example. Forget that one. Look:
http://www.royalathena.com/media/gre...cs/CLG102B.jpg
that suit is mid-4th century b.c. not drastically out-of-frame, right? maybe some early greek units could use something similar?
The fact of the matter is you can't find a "real" helmet WITH Horse hair. I know it's on statues and poetry but it does not represent the true history.
Horse hair wouldn't survive, me thinks.
well, how was the hair attached? b/c if there were some sort of boss to which the haired was tied or something, that should be visible on the helmets. if it was affixed with an adhesive or something, then maybe you wouldn't see it.. although, it's not unheard of for organic material (e.g. fabrics) to survive that long.
Muscled curiasses will be in the mod, but they will be the exception rather than the norm.
Horsehair crests were not attached with adhesives. The actual methods used to attach them varied over time, but in most cases, some evidence of the system would survive - whether it's pin holes in the top of the helmet or a large raised platform.
Those responsible for creating the Greek unit list payed close attention to which units should and shouldn't have a crest.
Muscled cuirasses had all but disappeared on infantry by 270 B.C. They were still used by cavalry.
Attic style helmets (like the one you posted, but not the corinthian) were the norm as well.
The thing is there already ARE Corinthian style helmets in the game. Armoured Hoplites have them. I don't reall care about that.
The thing I'm trying to change is the fact that they have horsehair. People always assume all greek soldier's had horse hair on the helmets when in fact almost none of them did, especially in the time period we are talking about.
Byzantine Prince:
Don't worry, we understand. In addition, what you say about the Corinthian helmets doesn't really matter, since we're completely redoing every single unit in the game, and tossing out 75% of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by chemchok
Ok, kewl.... I would apreciate some screenshots of the greek units if it's not too much trouble.
Thanks.
I believe this thread already has at least our redone Argyraspidai (silver shield pikemen). Though the Greeks haven't received as much attention as other factions at the moment.
http://img132.exs.cx/img132/925/14bm.jpg
A little update on Caesar Legion , Since I got a new book on the subject the shield has been scaled to reach the exact dimension, also I added the detail of the link of the shoulder pads that also have been reshaped , still need to retouch the helmet and pattern ....