MTW-Redux Beta Released!

Hi

I offer this comment with humility because, as I've said before, I have both respect and gratitude for those who enhance my enjoyment of MTW through creating and making available their mods.

However, I did play a (I suspect early) version of Medmod and one of the things I just could not 'get on with' was the way I couldn't get ships through the Straits of Gibraltar. It really intruded into my enjoyment of the game, I'm afraid. It also massively affected the local balance of power; I think I was playing one of the Iberian factions.

I also wonder if the AI could cope with such a stratagem.

I guess we're talking about a subjective lesser of two evils trade off here.

Just my ha'pence worth.

Regards
Victor

Its usually very hot here in the summer.....so im looking forward to spending some time indoors with version 3 of redux. I still have the original boxed copy of mtw with manual and tech tree and i also have the brady original 192 page mtw strategy guide. Ive had these for quite some time and they are in excellent shape....Its 1 game that i always seem to go back to playing.....Redux makes it feel like a new experience altogether.....Thx Axalon

Hello guys and all reduxy lurkers out there…

Thanks for suggestions and input here (I do appreciate it guys, I do), anything more to add regarding the connectivity-case Wes? Or can the court of redux get in session to make a ruling here? Since the opposition, represented by Victor here have had their say. Hehehe.... Sorry, I could not help myself...

Achilles: Thanks for the kind remarks (as always). Let’s hope santa starts an early run this year (I’ll hopefully start to work with redux again this weekend, we'll see how it goes from there). THE “Strat-guide” hah? Man if I only had that stuff on PDF at least! That would be some interesting reading for sure! I am totally envious here….

Martok: I would love to provide you with some answers but you must narrow it down a bit for me. So far you have not done that, thus I can not help you. End of story essentially. Sorry…


Ok, since we are a new “page” and all, a reminder for all you who might have missed it….

Quote:

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A few guidelines for future reduxy suggestions:
-------------------------------------------------

Since I will soon start working with good ‘ol 3rd again, I thought that some basic practice and guidelines considering potential and future suggestions and ideas for redux could be outlined here to make things smoother. Now is probably the best time to forward stuff like this and if “you” think that that you have some stuff and suggestions that will make redux better - then by all means state your case here and I’ll be happy to hear you out – if the unlikely happens and I like and want to include it in redux, a credit is secured in 3rd edition for you (I’m sorry but I can hardly offer anything else here). Also be quite aware that the rule is that it will be turned down – so don’t feel bad if that happens to your idea or suggestion – it is to be expected, on the other hand you have little to loose by trying, right?

As a good example here is redux-veteran Western (If he can forgive me for this). He has been more persistent and relentless in these regards than any other around here (I mean that in the best possible way). His ideas are usually pretty good and well thought out, but even so I have probably turned it down more than I have ever applied his various ideas (I think, it feels that way anyhow). So it is to be expected, even for quality stuff like his….

(My guess is that he applies this stuff anyway on his personal and tweaked copy of redux at home. The western deluxe redux, just to cope with my silly decisions and notions. But that is off the record…)


Anyway, before anybody starts to do this (if it happens at all, that is). Here are some pointers to keep in mind….

1. Know the circumstances found in (default) redux…. Do your homework.
2. Think your stuff thru properly, it will increase the chances for endorsement.
3. If it disrupts already present design too much it is extremely unlikely that I will include it.
4. Bear in mind that it will have to work for both v.1.1 and VI. That is an overriding priority for me and that won’t change. No matter what….
5. If possible, consider the workload-factor of your suggestion/idea - you can be certain that I will.
6. If possible, try to consider stability issues and aspects for the game - you can be certain that I will.
7. If I have turned it down, I have turned it down and that is pretty final. If you don’t like it, do it on your own copy of redux! You don’t need my sanction for that!
8. Do try to determine if the idea or suggestion has been forwarded before. If it has there is little point in trying all over again. After all, it is tedious for me and others to read the same thing over and over again. Besides it makes you look more serious…
9. ???

The Dead Concepts List (don't bother with these)
------------------------

1. More Factions
2. More Troops/units (the technical roof is reached essentially)
3. More provinces
4. More ships
5. More agents
6. More florins
7. Swiss faction included
8. Novgorod faction included
9. Historical events
10. Change of timeframe
11. Spawned heroes
12. Muslim princesses (Hardcoded-reasons)
13. More playable factions (officially supported)
14. Making new battle maps
15. Garrison capacity
16. New portraits for Muslims/Orthodox/Pagans….
17. Scalability in Royal Knights, various champion/hero-units…
18. English longbows and range
19. Era-progression
20. ???

Ok, that's about it...

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- Cheers
----------
Wes, you do live up to your reputation, no doubt about that and I welcome
your initiative in these regards, never doubt that - even if I don’t agree with
you all the time…. :)

Hi Axalon

You invited my reply - here it is.

We have land regions in the game - you can only travel so far in a single year. We should have sea regions too - sea travel shouldn't be infinite for gameplay or realism. Ships "put into port" and if there isn't a friendly port, that long distance sea route isn't useable.

So I can understand that having a block at Straits of Gibraltar might seem a bit arbitrary, but it shouldn't when you think about what it is representing. Did Aragon expand into the Atlantic? Did Portugal expand into the Med?

Leaving aside the Med/Atlantic split, the Mediterranean is famously two seas, and the masters of each have fought for a base at the Sicily/Malta/Tunis throat, so that they can launch expeditions into the other. And the Turks of course could close off Marmara and the Black Sea by building on land their "throat cutter" fortress.

So is it really good for gameplay to make sea travel like going through a wormhole between distant galaxies - infinite travel in the blink of an eye? For me, that get's in the way much more than splitting the sea into sensible zones would. It makes seapower more important than it should be and gives the player a massive advantage over the AI which doesn't know how best to use its fleets

The court of redux (ie Justice Axalon) will decide. (By the way - isn't this one of the benefits of MTW1 map over Rome and later: it is much easier to do this kind of map tweaking)

Hi Axalon

I note you say Muslim princesses cannot be made available. I'm playing another mod at the moment - pending the release of the new version of Redux, of course - and the Almoravid faction does indeed get princesses.

Just thought you might find that intriguing. Let me know if you want more detail.

In response to Wes' posting, and purely in the spirit of a debate about historical events, the Normans did conquer Sicily and Malta around the 11th/12th century. But I accept they did not teleport there from Northern France.

One last point, again as a matter of historical fact, if you can make more tradeable goods, shouldn't there be slaves as a commodity within the game? Both Christians and Muslims bought and sold slaves - without prejudice as to skin colour, it seems to me. They mainly enslaved those who were of the opposing religion, as far as I can tell.

One last point of information: Jinettes were an Iberian Muslim cavalry, not Christian. That sort or inaccuracy irks me. I'd be grateful you could straighten that one out.

Cheers
Victor

Hello guys,

Ok, I made ruling on the sea-connectivity issue…
I rule in favor to Victors’ stance on this. Sorry Wes...

Ruling: proposal, the “sea-connectivity”-case 1A , rejected.

Motivation:

While the over all intention is good in spirit, the proposed actions to deal with the problems strike me as even stranger than the wormhole/teleportation circumstance that it is supposed to remedy. The fact that seas would not be connected strikes me as too radical and too strange for the overall all experience of the game (the only reasonable exception to this appears to be the Marmara sea, and I don’t like it much even then). I will however, if time allows investigate further if additional sea-areas deep-sea or otherwise can be included in the redux-platform (MTW-VI and v1.1). By all means, everybody else is welcome to investigate this in v.1.1 as well (thus saving me and redux-production plenty of time). Essentially, I am sympathetic to the fundamental reasons to the idea that it should be harder to travel to Kairo from London or vice versa. In fact, I have already pondered some on these issues on my own before it was brought up here. I think that the best way to deal with this problem is to either redraw the sea-squares and/or include additional ones in the map (if possible, it depends on available colors). In creating more operative and relevant squares, the enterprise to do such a travel/teleportation will cost more florins and require more ships, that also needs to be in position which undoubtedly will make it harder to realize any such travels. If the player are willing, and have the means to realize it, I say go right ahead... What we are talking about, and striving for here, is to create a circumstance that it will be so hard to do that this barely happens - ideally. Court adjourned...

Case closed....

--------------------------------------------------------


Regarding Muslim princesses....

I am only interested, if these are spawned “naturally” like they do in Catholic factions. “Bought” princesses are hardly interesting since they will start at age 1 – which is just not acceptable. If you can prove to me with pics or something that Muslim princesses are really spawned after some 50 turns into the game, I will have little choice but to revise my position on this issue. Still, in order to get truly interesting for redux, it must work for both V.1.1 and VI.... Thus you just earned some “homework” the check it out more thoroughly and come back here with your findings Victor and then we will see what happens from that point. I know from earlier experience that some people has been interested in this stuff before so any additional info will be appreciated I think. Thus, please do investigate the circumstances of this further, and do check out how many portraits are involved for them as well, and also what kind of names these little dark beauties have.... I believe that there will be problems in that regard you see...


Regarding potential new commodities and redux....

This is primarily a matter thwarted by the inflexibility of MTW v.1.1. Apart from that I don’t feel that any additional wares for trade will significantly increase the quality of the game considering the rather limited effects it will bring. Besides introducing more commodities will also generate more florins thru trade and I think that there are more then enough of that already – especially so in the V.1.1 version of redux…


Regarding Jinetts and redux....

These troops have been consciously omitted in the redux-roster since they were too weak in their combat-profile in the hands of the AI – main reason. Secondly, the fact that there are none suitable GFX-plates for them makes it pretty impossible to include them as anything but western catholic kind of troops just by their sheer appearance – minor reason.



Finally, the “redux-office” will close down for a few days to “repaint the walls” of the office. Thus my activity here will probably slow down for a while here. However, the “mailbox” will function as usual, so feel free to post here while I’m away....

- Cheers

Hi Axalon,
I've noticed that you have javelin range at 1500 in your projectile stats:book:
Many other mods have upped this to 2500 or there about. Wouldn't increased javelin range allow the AI jinettes to get off a volley or two before skirmish mode forces them to run away?

Hi Axalon

"I am only interested, if these are spawned “naturally” like they do in Catholic factions. “Bought” princesses are hardly interesting since they will start at age 1 – which is just not acceptable."

Sorry, don't understand this distinction.

"If you can prove to me with pics or something that Muslim princesses are really spawned after some 50 turns into the game, I will have little choice but to revise my position on this issue."

I believe this test is passed. I have seen at least five Muslim princess in my current campaign; there are three pics of princesses below. The Almoravid and Fatimid factions who produced these little beauties are from the start/originals; i.e., the factions are NOT re-appearances which had been killed off earlier in the game. Hence, the earliest of the three pics is from about 150 years into the campaign. Also, one of my Polish heirs married one of the Fatimid girls, and a second Fatimid princess married a Fatimid general. By which I mean these lassies are fully functional, it seems to me.

Take a look below and let us know your thoughts. Pictures in spoiler...

Best regards
Victor

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

ArabPrincess.1.1229Almoravid.JPG
https://i729.photobucket.com/albums/...9Almoravid.jpg

ArabPrincess.2.1272Fatimid.JPG
https://i729.photobucket.com/albums/...272Fatimid.jpg

ArabPrincess.3.1272Accepted.JPG
https://i729.photobucket.com/albums/...72Accepted.jpg

ArabPrincess.4.1302Fatimid.JPG
https://i729.photobucket.com/albums/...302Fatimid.jpg

-----------------------------------------
EDIT: I have temporarily thrown in a spoiler for the pics to make things work smoother for the time being. As I stated before, maximum size on standard pics are 800x600 for this thread. I urge you to either resize the pics to the stipulated max or apply some thumbnails or some other smoother solution of your choosing here. As they are now, the pics are a tad too big to function smoothly without disrupting the thread. Whenever you have the time, please make the final adjustments at your convenience (kindly erase my entry here when you have done so). - Axalon

Hi guys,

I’ll start with you Obliqueattack… Hmm… Yes others may have increased that value but I won’t since that strike me as rather unrealistic and the same time it won’t make jinetts much better in the hands of the AI anyhow. The fact is that the AI can’t handle skirmishing at all – one quick cavalry charge and it’s all over. A value of “2500” translate to a distance of roughly 50 m (If I remember that stuff right) which I find unlikely that it can be realized on a regular basis on horseback. It’s hard enough just standing on the ground. Nah, the jinetts stay out of redux since they would only weaken AI-army compositions and thus the game – that is unacceptable and my first priority. However, feel free to include them on your own if you like. There are some 10-12 vacant slots in the unitprod-file so why don’t you use some of them? If you want jinetts in your personal game, that is…


Ok Victor, this was very interesting and unexpected. It seems that the pics are from an upgraded version of XL. The only interesting part about that is that we thus know that this is VI-based and that it is obviously possible somehow to make it happen on the VI-platform at least. However, I kind of doubt that it will work on v.1.1. I’ll check it out some more whenever I get curious enough about it (the less flexible princess name-system on that version makes all this seemingly pretty doomed to fail). I’ll probably save this discovery of yours for the future when and especially if I do some strictly VI-based work - a sub-mod or expansion for redux or whatever. We’ll see. Anyhow thanks a bunch for sharing these findings. :2thumbsup:

Well, I’ll guess this means that I’m back for business here then….

- Cheers

Hi Axalon

At the risk of trying your patience...

Regarding my old bugbear of the AI fielding way too much siege artillery in its initial deployment in field battles, might it be an idea to raise the build-time for these units? Hopefully this will discourage the AI from buying them in the first place.

I'd also suggest the same strategem as a sort of compromise with Wes' argument about sea transportation being much to much like teleportation; i.e., raise the build time for ships.

I guess where I'm headed with this is the notion that, certainly later in the game, it's not so much the opportunity cost of the quantity of florins that influences build choices ('cos any decent empire is going to have a reasonable income) but the opportunity cost of tying down a production centre for x number of years.

All the above is contingent on the AI taking build time into account when making unit production decisions, of course.

Best regards
Victor

Hello Victor and all fellow "reduxians"....

As far as I can tell the AI does not care much about building times. To me it seems that that cost, unit-numbers and combat-capacity to an extent are the only things the AI really cares about. Also some of this is hardcoded to a degree in VI as in the AI builds and prefers to build mixed armies containing all arms if possible - some of this and some that basically. In fact V.1.1 is better in this limited sense since it actually follows applied instructions better.

Another note here regarding units is that Redux and XL uses different AI-systems. XL uses the old CA-system, modified a bit, while redux uses a new and built from scratch RX-system which is pretty different as far as units go. Thus I am afraid that your siege-engine problem is mostly a thing for XL and other mods using a CA based AI-system (after all, they have plenty of that stuff apart from redux). So, I wonder if this is really true at all for redux (even in its current 2nd-edition format) to the same degree it might be true in XL? Are you sure about this? In redux that is? If you got some stuff to back it up, by all means post up some pic to support it and please do that in the debug-area (everybody else is welcome to do the same of course). Anyhow, as you surely must understand, XL is a bit out of my jurisdiction and not on my table so to speak…

Apart from that, as far as I can tell, it is not possible to truly influence how the AI set up its armies - and potential siege engines when it is time to deploy for battle. I remember that Western and I (if I remember this right) discussed ballista’s in the early days of redux (1st edition) and this was remedied as far as possible later on (2nd edition), courtesy of his findings in large part (so things can happen in favor to Wes, just so everybody are clear on that).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by victorgb

I guess where I'm headed with this is the notion that, certainly later in the game, it's not so much the opportunity cost of the quantity of florins that influences build choices ('cos any decent empire is going to have a reasonable income) but the opportunity cost of tying down a production centre for x number of years.

---

Well, this might be true to some extent in general. For those of you who are historically inclined, there are plenty of examples of the opposite. In fact there is a dude that made a famous thesis on the idea that empires would expand themselves to their own destruction and death - due to shortage of funds (P. Kennedy – “The rise and fall of the great powers”). Still, all that is beside the point and fairly unreduxy (not as such but… Oh well, I could go on and on about this – let’s just leave it at that)….

Now, with the already released Spanish fix (A or B) applied the seas are much more contested and thus you can not as easily get sea-superiority as you could prior to that fix in redux (and probably as in most other MTW-mods as well, which uses the CA AI-system). Many factions in redux tends to be pretty eager naval-powers after that fix. If I do apply more sea-squares or “redraw” the sea in the game – things won’t get any easier for the player in effect - rest assured about that. But as you said yourself, the raw system of the game is not perfect and there are limits to what I can and will do about it. In general, having ships in service is not for free and can actually end up being a real factor on you coffers if you have few flying florins around…. Remember, I’ll have to consider the impact on the AI as well…

Now, unless you have some fantastic discoveries on the sea related-stuff, I believe this matter is sorted and done with. Most big and “serious” ships already have 2 turns to completion and that works just fine for me. All the small ships in redux will probably be ignored by the AI in the future release. As will probably most of the siege engines as well - short of the Trebuchet. This is the only siege-weapon that the AI might have a chance to use decently I think. In general, troops should not take “years” to complete – the only reasonable exception to me is high-end archers. I’ll deal with all that when I am done with the GFX…. :wink2:

Ok, that’s it for for now.

- Cheers

Im getting bored with the mess that is ETW....just checking back here for any updates for redux............thanks

Hello Achilles,

Updates you say? Well, let’s have some updates then.... Remember all the fuss about sea-connectivity? Here is what
eventually happened about that....

Reduxed:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/image...eduxed1000.jpg


Original:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/image...eduxed2000.jpg


- Cheers

Hi Axalon

I like what I see. Should make some of the improbable long range invasions much rarer for the AI and harder for the player :yes:

Hello and excellent Wes….

Then there are at least two of us…. Soonish (2 weeks or so probably) it is probably time to start some testruns with what so far is dubbed as 3rd edition. Hopefully you and Edyz are up for it then (otherwise I will have to find some other testers I guess or even cancel all testing completely). Then plan is then to load up some sort of “secret non-public beta” and I’ll send you guys the links over PM. Ideally, and with a bit of luck, we will have enough progress and work done within 2-3 weeks that I can then later on put together and release a full official version after that. All that is the current plan, we will have to see if that holds true eventually - that is what I had in mind here anyways....


Additional testers for new redux?

I would prefer to have some 1-2 additional testers if possible. Thus let it be known that there are as of now 1-2 open spots for people that might be interested in doing some serious beta and bug testing for “the reduxlabs testprogram”, now is your chance join the bandwagon, people. So…. Are there anybody else interested in signing up for such a thing? This offer is only good for a limited time however and as usual; all I can offer in return is a spot in the credits-list and goodwill...


Redux-tester requirements then….

Errr yes (just to avoid misunderstandings here)…. Preferable requirements are that “you” should be familiar with the redux basics and that kind of play. - Harsher economics and tougher combat etc. etc. You also should have little problems with reporting in clearly, accurately and thorough. And, you simply must be able to run MTW V1.1 (lets worry about a VI-version later basically). Expect that all testing will be conducted on “hard”-difficulty level or higher in the game - so you should have no problems or reservations about such circumstances. - If that is a yes, yes and yes, maybe you might be just the right person for the task?


If "you" got all 3 yes and are truly interested in redux-testing (mainly bug-hunting) and possibly influence parts of the
final design somehow, let me know about it. As in post up a note of interest - here in this thread for instance… :laugh4:

- Cheers

Cannot wait for this great mod to be released! I am particularly impressed with the two-handed sword implementation--these two-handed swordsmen come close in looks to those in MTW2!:beam:

Do dead bodies show on the battlefield in this mod?

What the hell?!

Byzantine infantry costs 100 to maintain? What do they eat, pancakes from gold? Any reason I should not replace them with normal spearmen infantry ASAP?

I was really looking forward to try this mod, but this "detail" fed me up so much, that I gotta return to the XL mod :(

Why are all the Catholic nations portraits the same picture of the closed helmet??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leith

Cannot wait for this great mod to be released! I am particularly impressed with the two-handed sword implementation--these two-handed swordsmen come close in looks to those in MTW2!:beam:

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I like 'em too... :grin:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dodge_272

Do dead bodies show on the battlefield in this mod?

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Yes… Allways have.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dodge_272

Why are all the Catholic nations portraits the same picture of the closed helmet??

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Why don’t you read the redux “read me”? ….Customization section?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Biges

What the hell?!

Byzantine infantry costs 100 to maintain? What do they eat, pancakes from gold? Any reason I should not replace them with normal spearmen infantry ASAP?

I was really looking forward to try this mod, but this "detail" fed me up so much, that I gotta return to the XL mod :(

---

Different game, different circumstances…. Whatever comments I had about the Byzantines can be found in post: 58 basically. I have designed the game I want and like. If that don’t work for you – too bad I guess.


Anything else, fire away…

- Cheers

Do I need to install Superfix before the VI upgrade?

Nope*. I would however recommend that you install the Spanish fix “B” after you installed the VI-upgrade – you will get a better and more challenging game that way.

* The only function of the “superfix V.1.1” is to upgrade the first redux of “ 1.0” up to “1.0b” – which is the current version available by default download, thus you and other new players don’t need it. I doubt there are much people around these days that still have the older non-upgraded version of redux. It was created as a service and alternative to such people when 2nd edition were released in 2008. 1.0b patched with a Spanish Fix (“A” or “B” depending on what version of MTW people are using) is the current standard.

- Cheers

Hahahahaha, I *INSTANTLY* assumed that "Spanish Fix" means making the game Spanish, and didn't read a single word of the actual description XD

So let me get this straight...

I need
1) Redux 1.0b
2) VI upgrade
3) Spanish fix B

and do NOT need the Superfix nor Spanish fix A?

Correct… And correct… Anything else, fire away.

- Cheers

OK, that's all for now! Thanks for taking the time to set things straight for me, but most importantly thanks for making such an amazing mod!! :)

How is the newest version coming along?

Fantastic work... :2thumbsup:

Hi Axalon - long time no post!

I just pulled out my old laptop yesterday - was thinking of giving it away. I fired it up, and for old time's sake clicked on MTW for a quick game.

Luckily for me, I still had redux installed, so I'm now rampaging away with the Italians.

Great mod, and I look forward to the new version.

Any news on version 3?

Hi everyone and thanks for the recognition guys,

Now, about what is so far labeled as 3rd edition of redux. I think it is safe to say that we won’t see that released until 2010. I have no idea when exactly other than I need to finish up everything before it happens anyhow. Currently, most of the GFX-stuff I wanted to do is done and my primary concerns next will probably be about the AI since it does not work in the way I want it, so I’ll be probably be struggling with finding a way to make it happen. In general, I had little time for TW-stuff ever since October, so my absence here at the forums and lack of progress in my work with redux is basically the result of just that if any of you might are wondering about it. I’ll try to stick around here for the next couple of days and hopefully we can have a little action around here. - To make up for my absence I’ve prepared some more stuff for you about the future release. Hope you people like it. Enjoy…


https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/image...Portrait_1.jpg

Ok, redux is designed so that each player can customize portraits that will appear within the game. I already made several replacements that each player can use in their reduxed game (with 2nd edition). Now my plan is to release some templates for various factions so enterprising people can fashion multiple knights for a specific faction (the one they are playing), let’s say France, as much as they like by using these templates. That’s one feature I had in mind with the new release, I know it will be very useful thing for me at least. I producing portraits of your on is not your thing, you can at least use these included templates as additional portraits with the others.


https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/image...ortrait_2B.jpg

There will also be some 10-20 additional and new portraits included intended for the use as potential replacements of the default “generals” in the game. In total there is 57 slots for portraits but I don’t think I will make enough to cover all 57 slot since that is not really part of my plans, after all redux is not intended to work like that. You are supposed to customize your game! Anyhow, I also made a few replacements for the princesses as well since I wanted to replace a few of those.

Other than that I also made some potential default generals Muslim, Pagan and Orthodox factions. Long time a go, a dude named William wanted to have some of those in the game and tried to make ‘em on his own (it never flied, but obviously the interest was there regardless), I thought I might as well do standard-pic each for all non-catholic cultures as well (currently I plan for that to be strictly optional).

- Cheers
----------
Hello there Orph, I remember you, it was indeed long time ago you traveled these parts…