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No, I don't think they disagree with my views on the intrinsic value of the EU, they just think being in the EU is good for trade and prosperity and don't fancy risking leaving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
Me, I think the prosperity of the EU isn't worth the political hangups and the undermining of democracy.
For a lot of people who where you fall either side of that argument is a very narrow space.
I'd be delighted if Germany can lead that unruly mass. Britain and Germany probably can have a sensible discourse. The layers the EU add are merely self-serving bureaucrats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
~:smoking:
Where in practice is the EU's undermining of democracy? Where has the EU intervened to undermine British democracy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
The British Isles are still next door to the European landmass, far away from the rest of the 5 eyes. Unless you're suggesting we teleport goods and produce around the Commonwealth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
We could copy the Chinese and use devices that float on water!Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
~:smoking:
Just a couple:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
EU Directives and Regulations superseding UK laws.
EU courts superseding UK courts.
~:smoking:
Not everything that floats on the water can be called a device.Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
But doesn't UK law then undermine your local law in Taplow? After all you vote for a mayor and/or city parliament and then these UK people come and dictate your foreign policy and your income taxes because their laws supersede the laws your democratically elected Taplow government came up with.Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
Perhaps you personally like and dislike it in different cases, but there seems to be no actual principle, just a matter of taste.
Taplow was never, to the best of my knowledge, a Sovereign state. The unit of state was England - with some disjointed bits tacked on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
The principle is pretty obvious.
~:smoking:
We're signed up to other international treaties too. If it's the principle that rankles, should we leave the UN too? Most of the human rights malarkies are traceable to the UN's workings after all, rather than specifically the EU. Most of the EU regulations relate to H&S and similar stuff, and we've had Gove vow to at least retain the EU standards at a minimum, and Grenfell wasn't the greatest advert for building a bonfire of regulations.Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
The UN is a largely ineffective kerfuffle on which we have a veto.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
The EU is increasingly looking like a reenactment society for the Holy Roman Empire circa 1500 with all the contradictions and inefficiencies there-in.
Now, show me an Emperor, tell me we're re-taking Constantinople and I'll talk about the individual worth of my miserable life against the Glory of Rome because Rome is a dream I can believe in. Holy Roman Empire, not so much.
Two mutually contradicting arguments. Without going into a flight of historical fancy, the EU provides much that is decidedly not inefficient. Such as regulations that ministers have promised not to abandon. Such as directing investment to regions that Westminster is neglecting. And that's without going into arguments about the single market, which is the single biggest benefit of the lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
#NotmyKaiser #HabsburgProtest #Recount1486Quote:
Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
So would Taplow have been in Wessex or Essex then? Either way England/UK, French noblemen and a German Royal family now make laws that supersede the laws of whatever the old sovereign kingdom was. And it's not even like the UK was forced into the EU. It's not even forced to stay, although there are consequences. Just stop making up myths about how unprecedentedly terrible and undemocratic the EU supposedly is and how unfair it is to the glorious Democratic Peoples' English Empire or whatever. :drama2:Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
Even apart from the sovereignty issues it seems really weird to think that smaller countries nowadays were better off alone. To say it in the words of a wise old democrat:
http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/co...-a3189151.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by Rupert Murdoch
You agreed to this by democratic process. Your government shaped the details for your own country, and for others through the overall direction of the institution. You could provision to leave at any time.Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
Now you have decided to leave, keeping, per Pannonian, a substantial part of the substructure.
So has democracy already been irrevocably undermined, or did you have some hypothetical future scenario in mind that would differ from what came before?
Maybe EU membership is a form of lotophagy that saps the democratic will and values of individual Britons the more they partake?
the Parliament sits and debates in one city, but votes in another.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
THOSE sorts of inefficiencies.
Consequences?Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
Like being completely shut out of Europe's markets unless we agree to EU legal oversight on the people living here.
You want to wreck the UK economy because of that? That's just one step up from voting out because of bendy bananas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
Completely shut out? Sounds overly dramatic. The US are not in the EU but hardly shut out of the market, even Russia and Turkey sell their stuff inside the EU. You can negotiate market access either way, other countries have done so, too. What you probably can't get is a complete exception with conditions that are not available to other countries either, but then again why would you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
The other free trade deals have been discussed or alluded to have conditions of "freedom of movement" attached (India, Australia) or are rather one-sided (USA).
Because trade outside of the eurozone can't be restricted anymore, tadaaQuote:
Originally Posted by Husar
It means we'll be subject to tariffs on all trade, rather than just those outside the EU.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Nah, relieved from tarrifs outside the eurozone. The EU is currently just being a jerk to intimidate other states that have kinda had itQuote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
Do you have access to information that our cabinet ministers don't?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
I think he means you can just sell your stuff via free trade agreement to markets like India, China or Somalia that either don't want it or can't afford it. Or where you just can't compete with the local producers due to distances and wage differences. Of course it will be glorious anyway. :2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
What does the UK sell to the EU anyway? Wool and longbows? Surely the people of Tibet are dying to get both without the tariffs attached.
I do I guess, all exta-tarrifs on trading outside of the EU-zone will just vanish. Europe won't diaapear if you leave the EU either. You don't understand what you have going for you and how strong your position is. Not just economically but also ideogicallQuote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
Why would these tariffs vanish? How does ideology positively affect our economic position? You're making all these things up, aren't you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
No you have established trade-deals with the commonwealth that are actually hindered by the EUQuote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
Have you told David Davis this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Don't know who he is, maybe you shouldQuote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
He's the bloke in charge of Brexit talks. Associated with this, he's also talking about getting other trade deals done, among them with countries that you say we already have deals with. If you're right, perhaps you should let him know we don't need to do these deals as we already have them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony