London riots

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

"I'm ze best general in ze world and have ze best army and even I cant beat zem!"

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Better google for what he really said, I'm afraid you just confirmed his statement. :clown:

AII

"England is Nation of shopkeepers -Napoleon Bonaparte":clown:

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

Better google for what he really said, I'm afraid you just confirmed his statement. :clown:

AII

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"A nation of shop keepers."
...No I dont see what you mean there.
Edit: ninja'd again.

Cameron’s Plan: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14485592

Did I misread this or did Johnson contradict what Cameron said about the police?

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

We had some rioting back in 2009, although obviously not quite to the scale London has now.

Our response? Dialogue and debating. And it worked. Abid Raja held townhall-ish meetings in the Literature House(the bastion of red wine drinking middle aged women) where the stone-throwers got an opportunity to went their frustration in a democratic manner, as well as listening to the stories of their victims. The the result? I higly doubt any of them will riot again.



As always, the solution is more democracy, more debate. Democracy and debate has shaped the societies we live in now, the most civilized societies in the world, and democracy and debate will continue to be the way forward.

The only real concern in our society nowadays is the apparent lack of faith in democracy. Resort to barbarism, and barbarism you will get. Stay true to the enlightenment, and enlightenment you will get.


Edit: that, plus making sure the british youth gets fatter and fatter, of course. A fat man is a happy man.

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You're going to convince people burning homes and shops to please gtfo and find a job, and think it works?

This whole troll thread started on a false premise. Neither Louis nor I (who strongly advocated the use of the army in the 2005 french riot) blamed anything on Islam at the time. We blamed it on immigrants (or rather, the immigrants' sons), who happen to be more often than not, muslims.

Which doesn't prevent me from blaming Islam, nor does it prevent me from blaming londoner scumbags for being scumbags. I stopped being revolutionnary when I realized "the people" is actually worse than the elites who screw them, and these events only further prove it.
While some of my friends applaud the awakening of the glorious revolution, I only see violence, greed and hatred. I wouldn't entrust these people with any kind of power, because they're stupid, lazy, cruel, bitter and vicious.

They are their own demise.

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Originally Posted by Skullhead

You're going to convince people burning homes and shopes to please gtfo and find a job, and think it works?

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I don't think it works, I know it works.

But your reply shows a misunderstanding of what I'm advocating(hello strawman!), and to be quite frank I can't be bothered to explain it further.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

I don't think it works, I know it works.

But your reply shows a misunderstanding of what I'm advocating(hello strawman!), and to be quite frank I can't be bothered to explain it further.

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Damn your naive. What's in the water in Norway.....

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Originally Posted by econ21

I suspect that the general atmosphere of austerity is one factor in the current riots. When people see no hope, they behave more recklessly.

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If we attribute some blame to austerity, can't we then also attribute some to the growth of the unsustainable welfare state to begin with? Why is hope for the future tied to government subsidies? Isn't that the deeper issue?

This is what conservatives have feared for years. People become dependent on government subsidies, and when those subsidies are curtailed, either by choice or necessity, they run riot in the streets. Entitlements breed entitlement, which constrains a nation's ability to react dynamically to quickly changing economic conditions. This is why the US is gripped in near paralysis over our own budget.

They should go for singapore style canings rather than petty fines.

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

They should go for singapore style canings rather than petty fines.

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:thumbsup:

you spit in street!

you go to jail now!

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

If we attribute some blame to austerity, can't we then also attribute some to the growth of the unsustainable welfare state to begin with? Why is hope for the future tied to government subsidies? Isn't that the deeper issue?

This is what conservatives have feared for years. People become dependent on government subsidies, and when those subsidies are curtailed, either by choice or necessity, they run riot in the streets. Entitlements breed entitlement, which constrains a nation's ability to react dynamically to quickly changing economic conditions.

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Agreed.

How melodramatic was that comment? It's so far off the mark. Listen to the rioters themselves.

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

Damn your naive. What's in the water in Norway.....

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Oil. Hence the disconnect.

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

Damn your naive. What's in the water in Norway.....

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I personally find the belief that one can beat people into conformity to be a lot more naive.

Anyway, democracy got us to where we are now. Democracy will bring us further. We certainly won't progress by resorting to methods we tried centuries ago, who we know to be a failure.


Roses over hatred, I say.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

If we attribute some blame to austerity, can't we then also attribute some to the growth of the unsustainable welfare state to begin with? Why is hope for the future tied to government subsidies? Isn't that the deeper issue?

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Many rioters aren't getting any government subsidies to begin with. They have jobs, studies, families and a future. This isn't about poverty and welfare at all. Just like football hooliganism it's about bad policing and feral youth and crowds out of control.

AII

Prick arrested.

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Originally Posted by johnhughthom

Prick arrested.

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Good.

On the other hand a student with no criminal record just got a six month prison sentence for stealing a six-pack of bottled water.

Imagine the sentences some bankers and MP's would get if they were measured by the same yardstick.

AII

I found an extended version of what the guy said on the radio yesterday.

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‘The answer is simple, because it is wrong, but when you get past that, why should these people not go and do what they’ve been doing? What are the examples that they have been set?
The bankers have ruined the country and have not been held accountable, they have stolen billions of pounds from us and give themselves enormous bonuses from what they have taken. They’ve looted the country and got away with it. They’ve had their hands in the till.

The journalists have shocked and sickened the nation, they have violated people and destroyed their livelihoods, left them bereft. It isn’t just the phone hacking, but the constant untruths and innuendo that all the media peddles, and they get paid handsomely for it, while being courted by the rich and famous. A few token heads on poles will mollify the masses and things will carry on pretty much as before. They’ve profited from the wilful and spiteful destruction of people.

The politicians have lied to us since free, open elections have existed. They’ve had their hands in the till, and have made up their own rules to allow them to do so, it goes far beyond those prosecuted. What is the difference between a kid smashing a shop window and taking a £500 TV and a politician taking your wages before you’ve even got them and buying a £500 TV with it before turning round and proclaiming ‘I’m entitled’ ?’

‘Yes, and politicians, against the will of the people send our planes to bomb and our soldiers to shoot people, and when we say we don’t want it, they go and do it anyway, and then send us the bill. They act like children screaming and shouting at each other, in their own way getting in each other’s faces, they destroy everybody’s lives and businesses. They too act like the law doesn’t apply to them and then can do what they want, and they get away with it.’

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Give that man a cigar!

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Originally Posted by InsaneApache

I heard a guy on the radio yesterday talking about the looters. He said, what can you expect when we have politicians ripping off the taxpayer and in the main walking away laughing at us, corrupt and useless police, governments and bankers colluding to impoverish the population....etc. etc.

I didn't agree with his excusing the looters but it did put it into perspective.

Corrupt to the core.

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I can't help finding myself thinking along the same lines.


For all of my disgust of the rioters, for all of their banal looting of blingbling, Nike's, plasma tv's - for all of that I still think that perhaps these people are right. Everybody else is doing it, no? Their leaders are. Their business elite is. The wealthy don't pay taxes, politicians are on the taek, and the banksters are robbing Britain blind. The City is the world's largest tax evasion scam operation. Shady foreign billionaires own their footbal clubs. Their own property is unprotected by an incompetent police and judicial system.

Why should they be responsible citizens?

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Originally Posted by InsaneApache

I found an extended version of what the guy said on the radio yesterday.

Give that man a cigar!

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Well said. Except for two things.

1. Gerald Kaufman didn't buy a £500 TV, he bought a £8000 40-inch flat screen Bang & Olufsen TV at tax-payers' expense.

2. Pointing at bankers and politicians does not a solution make. I mean, if the rot starts at the top, the cure should start somewhere else. Where is that?

AII

People are too angry. We should just subsidize anti-depressants to make them free for everyone and put it in the water, so everyone is a lot happier.

/bravenewworld????

These riots had no stated purpose nor political objectives.

However, had they been about government corruption and the plundering of the nation I think they could have won a quick victory.

As it is it will only be another excuse to tighten control and install more cameras.

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Originally Posted by econ21

There's an issue of the extent to which the cuts have been implemented yet, but there are cuts. The link below has the government in October 2010 announcing overall cuts in budget departments of 19% over 4 years. I can't see how that is consistent with government spending rising - perhaps it is a real vs nominal thing? (In which case, it is the real that matters). These cuts include 20% for the police. Today, Cameroon spun that as a 6% cut, but I am not sure what is going on there (6% is the figure the BBC reported for the Home Office).

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Spending has to rise because we have to burrow more to cover the deficit and service the debt. If we did not have the debt we would have no deficit and spending cuts would be marginal, and merely the result of falling revenues due to contraction. So goverment spending is rising EVEN AS government departments are cut.

As that guy said, "what is Labour for now all the money's gone"?

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I know that in my line of work (higher education) there are massive government cuts. All government subsidy for humanities and social science undergraduate teaching has been completely cut. I suspect that the general atmosphere of austerity is one factor in the current riots. When people see no hope, they behave more recklessly.

My brother's work unit has been cut from 3 people to just him (voluntary sector liason) due to the cuts.

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It really hurts, doesn't it? We've cut all burseries for PhD students, and raised fees. Only the rich can be doctors now.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

I don't think it works, I know it works.

But your reply shows a misunderstanding of what I'm advocating(hello strawman!), and to be quite frank I can't be bothered to explain it further.

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You misunderstand the situation. One of the rioters was a wealthy student at the University of Exeter called Laura, who was studying English and Italian.

What were grievences.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

One of the rioters was a wealthy student at the University of Exeter called Laura, who was studying English and Italian.

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Today a lifeguard, postman, hairdresser, teacher, organic chef and schoolboy aged 11 were arraigned. Apart from the millionaire's daughter who lives in a refurbished farmhouse with a private tennis court...

So much for the 'entitlement' excuse we've been hearing.

AII

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

People are too angry. We should just subsidize anti-depressants to make them free for everyone and put it in the water, so everyone is a lot happier.

/bravenewworld????

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I know its a probably joke but that would be a bad idea, antidepressants stabilize moods by either increasing the "feel good" chemical production or lowering the "feel bad" chemical production in the brain, if we gave them to the rioters they'd probably be doing the same thing but with a smaller sense of guilt, plus they generally increase confidence, the last thing we need now is the yobbos running around getting even more cocky.

Didn't that 'organic' chef try to torch Nandos?

Bastard.

You'll get my chicken piri piri out of my cold dead hands.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

You misunderstand the situation. One of the rioters was a wealthy student at the University of Exeter called Laura, who was studying English and Italian.

What were grievences.

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What grievences?

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Originally Posted by InsaneApache

Didn't that 'organic' chef try to torch Nandos?

Bastard.

You'll get my chicken piri piri out of my cold dead hands.

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LOLZ, yeah, that's him. Proves there's a hooligan in every vegetarian! :laugh3:

AII

Its plain and simple. You encourage social mobility so people can become what they can be and not what they are borned into. Key to that is creating a good education system that awards talent, not money.The reverse which some of the right wingers are suggesting. By that you create a large middle class, instead of minimal high class and huge low class population. The benefit of large middle class is that they consume unlike the rich and unlike the poor for different reasons of course. Also larger the working middle class, more stabile the society is. Large middle class does not use much social wellfare, but instead pay taxes, their own pensions, unemployment insurances etc. Wellcome to the Nordic model, or should we say North European model as Germany does not differ much in that.

Isn't the finnish model based on excessive use of vodka and saunas?