The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations

I also second Motion #6.

As for the current discussions. Whilst I do not think we should trek further North into Gaul heartlands, this is not because of any “love” or “respect” for the Gallic peoples. It is merely a practical consideration.

Their lands stretch far North to the seas and will expand our Republics borders un-necessarily and for little gain. The lands are no very profitable and I believe the other barbarians peoples beyond the Alps will cause us much military and financial problems should we venture further at this time.

I firmly believe that now is the time to consider the greater enemy of Carthage again. I agree with the First Consuls tactical reasoning and his need to capture all of Cisalpine Gaul and Massilia but also we must not limit him unduly.

I remind the Senate that we have a standing Motion from the previous Senate Session regarding defending against invaders into our Republic, perhaps a rewording of Motion #5 is in order?

If Motion #5 contained the words “within this current Consuls leadership” – thus those of the Senate who wish to limit this current First Consuls expansion against the Gauls or even the Iberians will do so but hence will not limit the Consular incumbents following him.

The Motion from our previous session ensures that should the Gauls attempt an incursion into Cisapline Gaul or against Massilia, he is free to pursue them with all vigour and ensure they do not try such a folly again.

It is my assumption that previous Motions carry on, if they are not “completed”.

Now to Carthage. The current Consuls plans are sound and I support his plans to strike at the remaining islands held by them, however, I also agree with his report that our navy is by now means strong enough to support longer range liberation.

Hence, I feel that the Carthage holdings in Iberia AND Afrika are still beyond the Republics reach at this time. We must continue to build our infrastructure and move to a more advanced and larger navy otherwise any such ventures will be doomed. We must consider the supply issues involved, the sea distances are large to Iberia and whilst they are short to Afrika the enemies navy is too strong for us to ensure resupply of any Cohort.

I am willing to be part of the fact finding missions as proposed in Motion #4, and I am also willing to set forth to any of those missions should the Motion be passed. Yes, I am willing to pit my linguistic and subterfuge skills even in Afrika.

I am confused why the Illyrians refuse an alliance with us? We have common enemies and no plans on their lands….this I find odd and unsettling. The job I am in leads me to suspect much, with this I can only believe they plan evil against our Republic.

[QUINTUS]: Senators, I must caution against making any alliances with a faction that we are destined to destroy. Both Spain and Seleucia fall into that category. Such alliances are doomed to be broken and if we are the transgressors, our standing among nations will be much reduced.

I am particularly concerned about Seleucia - it is a great power and it is conceivable that it may come close to dominating the region (obtaining 50 provinces). If such a risk appeared real and imminent, we would be compelled to launch a spoiling expedition to prevent it, ruining our good name. I would prefer that we retained our freedom of maneouvre.

Indeed, I wonder if we need rivals as allies at all. Perhaps the only alliances we need are those such as we have made with the Italian states and now with Cisalpine Gaul, whereby our allies accept our leadership and predominance.

My esteemed colleague Quintus, the Selucids are in no position to gain world domination as of now! Look at their borders: the rich Ptolemaics to their south are not on amicable terms with them, and when the Selucids turn their eyes on the Ptolemies, there is no doubt that their current "allies", the Bactrians, Armenians, Parthians and Pontics, will go to war with them, each with a desire to carve out a great empire of their own. Our concern is their assistance against the Greeks. If they help us, the Macedonians will no doubt turn on them. If they do not help, we have every excuse to attack them, as they will not have fulfilled their treaty obligations.

Anyhow, my friends, by the time Rome is strong enough to even consider launching an attack on the Selucids, we will be strong enough to do whatever we wish, regardless of our neighbours.

The following motions proposals are active :

Motion #1 : We should improve our strategic postion by also capturing Massila, as it is more easily defended than Jenuensis. This in addition to the conquest of Cispine Gaul and the Cartheginian islands.
Proposed by Lucius Aemilius (DDW)
Seconders : Publius Laevinus (Shifty157), Augustus Verginus (TinCow), Quintus Classicianus (GeneralHankerchief)

Motion #2 : If the Gauls agree to a ceasefire after Cispine Gaul has been conquered, we will attempt to resume trade with them.
Proposed by Lucius Aemilius (DDW)
Seconders : Quintus Classicianus (GeneralHankerchief)

Motion #3: The Consul must refrain from expansion beyond the Alps, with the exception of Massilia which may be taken if Motion 1 passes. The Consul must devote the remainder of his term to strengthening our economic and military infrastructure. This motion does not limit the taking of Corsica and Sardinia
Proposed by Augustus Verginus (TinCow)
Seconders : Lucius Aemilius (DDW), Publius Laevinus (Shifty157), Quintus Classicianus (GeneralHankerchief)

Motion #4: The First Consul will send out three spies to assess enemy defences in the following regions:
(1) Carthaginian settlements in Spain (and Gaulish settlements en route to there)
(2) Greek and Macedonian defences in their homelands (and Illyrian settlements en rout there)
(3) Carthaginian holdings in Africa.
Proposed by Quintus (econ21)
Seconders : Augustus Verginus (TinCow), Quintus Classicianus (GeneralHankerchief), Lucius Aemilius (DDW)

Motion #5: Expansion shall cease indefinitely after taking Cisalpine Gaul and Massilia, until the Senate consents to futher conquests.
Proposed by Sextus Antio (Ignoramus)
Seconders : Decius Laevinus (Tiberius)

Motion #6: I would also like to propose an alliance with the Selucids, who may aid us against the arrogant Greeks in Ionia. An alliance with the most powerful of the Diadochi will surely cause any potential enemies to shake in fear, as the Selucids can crush any empire in the Aegan when combined with our mighty Roman arms.
Proposed by Decius Laevinus (Tiberius)
Seconders : Sextus Antio (Ignoramus), Decius Curtius (Braden)

Motion #2 and Motion #5 need one more seconder to be accepted for voting. The other proposed motions are accepted for voting. Senator Decius Curtius (Braden) has proposed a rephrasing of Motion #5. He has also bravely volunteered for the very risky mission of assessing enemy defenses in Carthage in Africa.

On the matter of alliances I will propose the following motion :

Motion #7 : We will strive to make alliances with all the nations not on our blacklist, i.e. not Carthage, Iberia, Greece, Macedon, Thrace, Seleucia, Egypt, Pontus, Gaul or Numidia unless explicitly specified in an a motion by the senate.

Out of character :
This will greatly simplify the work of the first consul and speed up his work. I must say I find it strange, and probably an oversight, that Illirya is not mentioned in the blacklist. I suggest we just add it without further ado.

Tiberius Coruncanius (FLYdude) is very perceptive in noticing that I have been swapping ancilliaries. I needed them for the assault on Lugotorix, but stupidily forgot the Chirurgeon, which I borrowed from you later. I've rechecked the rules considering ancilliaries in post #2 of the out of character thread, and it seems priests are not to be freely swapped. I think this is a mistake on our part, and a needless complication for the first consul and I will start a discussion about this in the out of charcter thread, but nonetheless I will endeavour to restore your priests to you when I can, which will be soon. Please, let us have not more discussion of this in the in character thread.

[QUINTUS]: I second motion #7. Do we have another seconder?

I object, Senator Decivs Laevinivs has seconded Motion #5. It shoulc be ammended accordingly.

You are correct. It would be handy if everyone Bolded their motion statements for easier reference.

Consul,

It is certainly good to have a clarification of the proceedings so far. It is heartening that you can spare the time from matters of state to perform such a task, perhaps this should be one task for the Senate Scribe?

It is obviously up to Senator Sextus Antio to reword his proposed Motion.

Bravery. It is my job to better server the Republic, there are but two active spies in the Republic's employ at this time....that includes myself. I trust that it does not sound ill of me when I say that my experience is greater than that of Senator Quintis Classicianus, and I would not entrust the most difficult of missions to one of my newly trained agents.

Hence, the most logical selection for that mission is myself. However, that is the choice of the First Consul ultimately.

It is, after all, only the injuries received in the service of the Republican armies that lead me to my current career, otherwise I would be fighting alongside our brave legionaries.....I am sure their risk is greater than any that I may take.

(OOC: Besides, I stand to potentially get a Retinue from such a trip :idea2: )

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Originally Posted by econ21

[QUINTUS]: I second motion #7. Do we have another seconder?

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I second the motion also.

Further more I wish to congratulate our Consul on his recent victories against the barbarians !

A 10 : 1 ration surely is an achievement, and I'm sure i speak for the entire senate when I say we hope you continue your future work in the same fashion!

The following i quote from our consuls report:

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However, the legate Publius Laevinus (Shifty157) has advised me that it would be prudent to conquer Massila, a rebel-held town just west of Cispine Gaul over the Alps. It is very easily defended as the only access to it from Gaul is by crossing a bridge. I am inclined to agree with his reasoning. We might go further and try to extend our influence untill we can attack the Cartheginian colonies in Spain.

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I must agree with my father, Publius. Massila is nearby and would make the entrance into northern gaul a bit easier to defend. I also forsee no problems with takling the city itself, considering the state of our military.

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I have also heard reasoning that we are quite able to strike at Afrika itself now, but I worry about our lack of a strong fleet. I would advise against this, because even if we are succesfull in this venture, we cannot support it financially.

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I find that we should not attack the mighty Carthaginians in Afrika untill we can throw our full power at them, meaning we should build up our fleet first. Why take any un necessary risks I wonder ?

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We could also strike at Greece, as it has only one ally and the kingdom of Macedon is in serious trouble now as it is fighting two enemies at the same time and they can thus be ruled out. I have no strong feelings either way, but instead I would advise a defensive strategy and focus on our finances instead. I will of course carry out the will of the senate, whatever it decides.

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No, focus on Carthage and Gaul first, we don't want to fight a three front war, a war which will be a drain on our modest war chest. And maybe the Illyrians 'll even declare war on us...thus invading northern Italia.
The Greeks will fall, but let's concentrate on our current frontiers first shall we ?

I shall ammend Motion #5:

It now reads:

Motion #5: Expansion shall cease for the remainder of this consuls reign.

And I propose Motion #8: Expansion shall cease for the next consul's reign.

Thus, senators can vote on one or the other, or both.

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Originally Posted by Braden

Consul,

It is certainly good to have a clarification of the proceedings so far. It is heartening that you can spare the time from matters of state to perform such a task, perhaps this should be one task for the Senate Scribe?

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Yes, you are of course correct. However, I failed to notice that the Senate Scribe had already preempted me and I compiled the list for my own convenience. My apologies for overstepping my authority here.
I do think that a regular posted summary, say once a day, of the proposed motions will stir up debate. I get the impression from past debate that most of our members neglect to read up on the summary posted in post#1 of this thread.

First Consul,

I don't believe there is any problem with your extra effort here, indeed it speaks well of you.....is foreshame that you are committed to NOT run for Consul again for another 10 years.

Motion #5 - I second this motion in its revised format as proposed.

It seems that the senate is in general agreement on most of these motions. I find this to be very good news that we all can think clearly.

Conscript Fathers, it seems that this house is finally tiring of conquest - most excellent! I agree that after we have secured Cisalpine Gaul we should stop our expansion, with the Alps providing a natural barrier protecting Italia from the barbarians to the North. Other than securing Massila, any further expansion northwards would merely secure us lands of little value in an exposed position.

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Motion #7 : We will strive to make alliances with all the nations not on our blacklist, i.e. not Carthage, Iberia, Greece, Macedon, Thrace, Seleucia, Egypt, Pontus, Gaul or Numidia unless explicitly specified in an a motion by the senate

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Blacklist? What is this blacklist you speak of? I have heard no discussion of blacklisted nations in this house! What have the Iberians done to us to deserve blacklisting? Macedon, Thrace and the Seleucids? The Ptolemites, Pontus and Numidia? This is an outrage conscript fathers! You talk of future wars against nations so far away that most of us know them only by their exotic names!

Here we are at war with 3 nations, surrounded on all sides by enemies, and you refuse to countenance alliances with nations on the spurious basis that we are destined to come into conflict with them in the future! This is madness!

Conscript Fathers, we should seek alliances with anyone who can help us in the 3 wars that you have so quickly and readily plunged us into.

Fellow Senators, I too support an end to war with the Gauls, but only after securing our frontier on the Alps with strong garrisons and watchtowers to alert us of any treacherous barbarian incursions. Once this has been achieved I will attempt, at the pleasure of our glorius Consul to negotiate a peace between us so that we may increase our balance through trade with the barbaric northeners. This too may have the added bonus of civilizing them and attracting them to our way of life, making it all the more easier for us to absorb them into our sphere of influence in the future.

I hereby second Motion # 2

I hear too much talk of continuing war with the great empire of Carthage, and also of attacking Africa. Anyone who believes war with these people is in our best interests is a fool, their fleets are powerfull and their control of the sea in this region is absolute.

Let us now secure our homeland and build up our economy before any further expansion is decided upon.

As our new diplomat Oppius Vintruvius (Wishazu) has been away for Rome for quite some time, news may not have reached him that we are still at war with Carthage and the Greek Cities.
If the motion for the taking of Massilia is passed, I will wait with peace offers untill that city is captured. Otherwise we might get into the nasty position of just having brokered a peace deal and then Gaul captures Massilia just before we get there.

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Originally Posted by Oppius Vintruvius

Fellow Senators, I too support an end to war with the Gauls, but only after securing our frontier on the Alps with strong garrisons and watchtowers to alert us of any treacherous barbarian incursions. Once this has been achieved I will attempt, at the pleasure of our glorius Consul to negotiate a peace between us so that we may increase our balance through trade with the barbaric northeners. This too may have the added bonus of civilizing them and attracting them to our way of life, making it all the more easier for us to absorb them into our sphere of influence in the future.

I hereby second Motion # 2

I hear too much talk of continuing war with the great empire of Carthage, and also of attacking Africa. Anyone who believes war with these people is in our best interests is a fool, their fleets are powerfull and their control of the sea in this region is absolute.

Let us now secure our homeland and build up our economy before any further expansion is decided upon.

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Hear, hear. You speak wisely, Oppius Vintruvius. Augustus Verginus is a candidate proposing peace and prosperity, he may conquer a few provinces in order to satisfy the people, who are becoming used to conquests, however, I think he shall not attack Africa or Gaul, he is more likely to take a few Mediterranean islands.

Senators,

The First Consul is committed to seizing the Mediterranean Islands currently held by Carthage and I support him in this wholly. They are strategically important for military access to Afrika and Iberia AND a potentially, very large, source of trade income due to their central locations.

These actions weaken Carthage, our greatest enemy at this time, and strengthens the Republic financially through trade and bases of control.

Both myself and the First Consul agree that now is not the time to enter Afrika and embark upon any actions in Carthage’s “back yard”, but he has proposed a fact finding mission……….information is power and any accurate information we can provide about Carthage’s strength is much needed by us now and in the near future so we may best defend the Republic from any aggression by Carthage.

I am unsure but thus far we have only encountered Gauls to our North. Do we have any information about what Barbarian tribes live beyond the Alps and what financial gains could be made by trade with them? I can only feel that peace with Gaul will be very difficult to obtain in the near future, they are proud and foolish and will see their defeats against us more like red rag to an enraged bull rather than the lesson in humility they surely were. With that in mind perhaps a diplomat should be sent further North so seek trade from the non-Gallic tribes? What about those nations in the Carpathians or around the Black Sea? There are many nations, Barbarian or Civilised, that we have yet to encounter.

I am also troubled by the mention of a “Black List”, initially I believed I had missed something from a previous Session of the Senate but it appears I have not…..I say this “Black List” must be torn asunder! We will make enemies, that is sure as we have enemies now. Let us not consider other nations as enemies until they force it upon us and try to make trade partners and allies whilst we can……

……..a farmer reaps whilst the sun shines and tills the ground whilst it does not.

It is true Consul Lucius Aemilius that I have been away from our beloved home city for some time, mostly dealing with stubborn, treacherous Greeks, these people supposedly renowned for forward thinking seem totally unable to grasp the futility of continued war with us. However I was simply stating that I support our expansion north to the Alps, but no further for now, also that continous war with Carthage is not advisable. I am fully aware that we are currently at war with these child killers and I wish to congratulate our glorius Consuls on the progress of the war. However, I feel that expanding the scope of the conflict to the Carthaginian homeland is not in our best interests.

Senator Decius Curtius proposes a fact finding mission into the wild north to explore the situation amongst the many, disparate barbarian tribes. As mush as it sickens me to spend so much time with these foul, flea ridden Gauls, I will go once my work in Massilia is done, If it is the will of the senate.

[Out of character]
I regret proposing the 'blacklist' motion in this thread, and will explain my reasons in more detail and then I propose to move further discussion on this topic to the 'out of character thread'.

We will get offers of alliance from many of our surrounding nations. For each of these the game would have to stopped and the senate would have to be consulted whether to accept or not. I am in favour of this, but practically this is difficult. Sometimes I get three alliance offers in a single turn. The game would have to be stopped, a vote taken, and resumed for each of these offers. This would delay progress immensely. The nations NOT on the 'blacklist' (which should include Illyria) are factions we do not intend to conquer ever. So an alliance with them would be in our best interest. It is best to decide these things in advance, so the first consul can just play on and inform the senate of the new alliance.

Therefore I propose we decide each first consul election what diplomatic relations we wish with all the factions. Let us do this once, and then we need only propose motion for changes in our diplomatic relations from then on.

Your thoughts would be appreciated (in the 'out of character thread')

Surely the period for debate of these motions has passed. Senate Scribe, is it time for a vote, to allow the Consul to continue on with his term?

[SENATE SPEAKER]: Senator Verginius, the First Consul delivered his report at around 4pm UK time Sunday; by convention, we have two days for debate. Voting will start this evening 6pm and last for 24 hours.

When it comes to drawing up the ballot papers, I will have the scribes redraft the motion about alliances to remove reference to a "blacklist". Instead it will merely list by name those faraway countries that we are unlikely ever to have to subdue.

It is with great disappointment that I note the heavy approval of Motion 2. Perhaps this body only remembers the gold the Republic paid to Brennus. Maybe your votes would be different if you were reminded of the other things which the Gauls took from Rome. Surely I am not the only one who heard his grandfather tell tales of the horrors that the barbarians inflicted upon this fair city.

For shame Senators. For shame.

http://smarties.goodleaf.net/persona...renn-large.jpg

The Gauls will pay, and already have at the hands of our current Consul.

We all remember the tales our grandfathers told us Verginius, and eventually we will march to the North. Now is just not the time. Don't you see that strengthening our economy and infrastructure now, will help us defeat the Gauls later, surely you do !

:balloon2:

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Originally Posted by Dutch_guy

The Gauls will pay, and already have at the hands of our current Consul.

We all remember the tales our grandfathers told us Verginius, and eventually we will march to the North. Now is just not the time. Don't you see that strengthening our economy and infrastructure now, will help us defeat the Gauls later, surely you do !

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Certainly I do and I am not advocating a further advance on the Gauls; I was I who proposed Motion 3, restraining further conquests of those pitiful territories. What good would siezing their hovels do for Rome? I would even be in favor of a ceasefire with the beasts, if they can be reasoned with. However, letting them profit by Roman trade goes simply too far for me. Our merchants can ply our wares nearly anywhere for thousands of miles, why do we need to encourage them to go to Gaul?

Ah, but it is a lost cause, so I shall cease my ravings... for now.

Senator Verginius, perhaps Roman merchants in gaulish towns may encourage some form of civilisation of those Barbarians. I do not expect them to all stop wearing trousers of course, but who knows, we may encourage some of them to speak Greek as they deal with our merchants and businessmen. Furthermore, the benefits of trade will be plain for them to see. Whilst they trade with Rome they prosper, but as they have just learnt, if they decide to mess with us they will suffer!

Rome wasn't built in a day Conscript Fathers, neither will taming those hairy, unwashed beasts to our north be a quick and easy job. But perhaps, over time, they might approach some kind of culture that imitates our own (in a crude manner, of course).

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Originally Posted by TinCow

However, letting them profit by Roman trade goes simply too far for me. Our merchants can ply our wares nearly anywhere for thousands of miles, why do we need to encourage them to go to Gaul?

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Senator Verginius,
The reason I proposed this motion is that we will soon have a new border with settlements bordering on Gaul, including landbased settlements with no access to ports to ply their trade to other nations. Our merchants will profit by sharing in the Gaul trade, where otherwise they would have to trade amongst themselves with much less revenue. I don't like it that a potential future enemy will also profit from trade with us, but the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. I have not finished punishing the Gauls by a long shot yet and you yourself, senator Verginius, will shortly have the oppertunity to take a more personal vengance for this historic vile act of descecration of our fair city. I trust you will use that oppertunity to make our grandfathers proud.

Senators, I believe it is time to consider our future options now, before it is too late and we are caught unprepared. I will list our options here:

I) Sue for peace
This is, of course, not the greatest option. While it does relieve the stress on our coffers due to the extra trade and no need to strengthen our armies, it will also allow our enemies to do the same. I also do not think it will be possible to obtain a favourable peace, and an unfavourable peace would stain the reputation of Rome, making us seem like spineless cowards who would bow down before our enemies and return their land in fear of assault.

II) Attack Gaul
This is going to be the easiest fight, due to the weak nation of Gaul. However, as senator Verginus has pointed out, the Gallic territories are, simply put, good for nothing. They are underdeveloped barbarians, after all, and it will take years before Gaul can be developed into any use at all. It would also leave Italy exposed, as our troops will be far in the North. We will also be bordering Germania and Iberia, and having five conflicts is simply too much for us to bear.

III) Assault Africa
This would be the most beneficial to our state, as it would destroy the major threat to our power in the West. However, it would be close to impossible, due to the military strength of the Poeni and their alliance with the Numidians, which a successful African campaign would leave us exposed to. We will have to increase our military might for this.

IV) Assault Punic Iberia
We could strike the Phoenicans in Iberia, which will be almost without a doubt lightly defended and ripe for the picking. Their holdings there should also be reasonably prosperous, as it would open up sea and land trade with the Iberians. However, it would be far away and hence difficult to control, and a constant guard would have to be put up to dissuade the Iberians from launching any attack.

V) An Achaean Campaign
Finally, we can take Achaeans from the Greeks. This will open up many trade routes with the Ptolemaics and Selucids, and if we manage to negotiate an alliance, the Selucids will ease the difficulty of an Achaean campaign with their many armies. The natural resources and highly developed Greek lands will also be extremely beneficial, and it would be close to our heartlands, enabling easy governance. The problem, however, would be opening up a border to the Illyrians and Macedonians. If we take this route, we should attempt to make peaceful relations with Illyria, and prepare for an inevitable war with the proud Macedonians, who, without doubt, will want to carve out an empire in Alexander's footsteps. At our expense.

So, senators, what path would you take? Personally, I would go for options IV or V, as these campaigns would be reasonably easy and also beneficial.

However, whatever path the senate chooses to take, I will advise to attack the Greek province of Crete, as this will be lightly held, easily defended and open up many trade routes.

Decivs Laevinivs

Firstly I am gratified to note the unity in the senate. This will make make us look strong to our enemies and our friends and people alike.

I applaud the foresight of my collegue Decivs Laevinivs for starting this discussion already. I would like to note the following points :

1. Any prolonged campaign across water will be extremely risky and hideously expensive, and as such I see no merit to such adventures untill we can afford to build a serious warfleet. Already our modest transport fleet is stretching our resources.

2. Even after the building program I have initiated and will continue to follow, there remains very much to be done indeed. A war or further extension of our domains would only limit our growth by draining our coffers.

3. The Gauls are not a very strong enemy. For their numbers and their bravery, they lack discipline, and are no match for Roman troops. We can hold them at bay untill they give in out of hopelesness. We are already at war with three nations. Does any of us want to encourage our suspicious neighbours by annexing even more, relatively worthless, territory from the Gauls ?

4. There is an option VI. The Illyrians are hardpressed and may soon succumb in their war against the Kingdom of Macedon. I rather have the weak Illyrians as my neighbours than the powerfull Macedonians. I suggest we give military aid to the Illyrians to keep them in play and keep the Macedonians in check. While we are there we can harass the Greeks as well. We can also aid the Illyrians in recapturing their lands from the Greeks.

I support option VI and option I.

Those are interesting propositions,
And they all have ammunition.
I support motion one,
Since our empire has hardly begun,
And we won't be outdone.
We need time to gather strength,
To keep our enemies at length.
Macedon is pushing west,
And I support the quest,
To keep Illyria in the contest.
Therefore I support motion six
And may Jupiter transfix,
Our enemies.

(I, Publius Pansa, am fond of rhymes :laugh4: )