King of the Romans OOC thread IX

Bottom line is Crusade counts have the same voting power as a Duke.

While there are other areas of benefit for a Duke this one should not be equal in my view...and keep in mind gentlemen it's not the people who are dukes...it's an office that many others will hold as men die and other replace them.

There are 4 current dukes and then 4 future dukes up next and the another 4 behind them, those of you looking for a Ducal heir appointment need to keep that in mind. For those of you with good relations to Duke or future dukes, you need to keep that in mind....see :2thumbsup:

For those not directly affected then its a simple readjustment of something that was not intended to be that way and the basic set up should be re-balanced.

Hell, Arnold might have to go on crusade...as long as the Kaiser is happy them he'd be off...now who would want that :balloon2:

You know what I just realized? I forgot to propose an edict allowing Swabia to take Caen...sigh

Also, I will be on vacation until next Saturday so I will appoint Factionheir as my steward. Anyone can fight my battles, but please dont get me killed

I've returned a mere 30 minutes ago, and will need a bit of time to read my PM's and read through the threads as I'm not in a fit enough state to do so at the moment - having just returned.

An official statement of my return IC will be made, and I shall try to reply to all of my KotR PM's IC or OOC as soon as possible.

Just to let you all know.

:balloon2:

I know I proposed CA 11.4 IC, but I also feel strongly OOC about it. The feudal hierarchy structure of this game is one of the things that has really made it enjoyable. Advancement from elector to count to duke to emperor (for some lucky few) is an amazing progression. However, Dukes are vastly underpowered now due to the Outremer legislation. If you think back (and read the legislation itself) you'll see that Outremer was never intended to be another House. It's just a way of managing an area that is a good distance away from the rest of the Reich. The +1 for Crusader Counts was supposed to be seen as a reward for those who sacrificed and left the Reich. However, it hasn't worked out that way. What has happened is that Outremer is the BEST place to be and everyone left behind is diminished. This has in effect turned Outremer into the Fifth House, something that the legislation specifically stated it shouldn't be.

So, CA 11.4 will rebalance this and it will also make sure that people only go East for IC reasons. This is how it should be IMO. Outremer should be the place that is always in need of more generals, not the Duchies. If you believe that Outremer needs more power than it has under CA 11.4, propose new legislation about the powers and influence of the King at the next session. He should be the focus of Outremer power and influence, since he is essentially removed from his house. Strengthen the King and you strengthen Outremer. Don't do it via the Crusader Counts.

Aye, if CA 11.4 doesn't get through I suggest we discuss it OOC. Afterall I believe these rules were made OOC not IC.

Ironically now that the benefits have so eloquently been exposed and are aware to everyone, it seems as if it is too difficult NOT to go out there at some stage of someone IC life.

That fact I admitted to the urge as Arnold seems to be clear to me now...a few posts ago I could not have told you why exactly. Now I can.

The fact the original wording specifically say that it is not a house and should never be was shocking enough to me once I re-read it.

Please note guy's I'm very conscious of the fact that we are talking about position not the individuals that currently hold them.

Please keep that in mind when thinking about this.

The whole idea of even wanting to be a Duke...which some months ago was a very desirable position seems to have been diluted.

OOC I strongly believe that Outremer should be gutted of influence but IC I believe the opposite. What amuses me so much is that people have basically created a monster. This mirrors other real life political situations in history. What we are experiencing is something like the real feudal states experienced when they saw the Templars getting too powerful. TC could have proposed legislation that left everything the same but gave the Duke +4 influence and raised the cap. That would have gone for the balance he wanted and it might have even passed. But, raising the Duke while lowering the Count showed that it was an IC attempt to gut Outremer. While OOC I can see the merit of that, that will be very hard to convince enough people of IC. Giving the extra Crusader Count influence that can be tacked onto Count influence makes Outremer one of the places to go for career advancement. And we do need many good people out there for the enemies are numerous and respawning.

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And we do need many good people out there for the enemies are numerous and respawning.

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Same in Europe, that's a bad excuse

I think one of the issues that has happen PK is that initially there were only a few Crusader Counts. Now it's as if all of a sudden we've seen the 900lb gorilla in the corner and there's load of them. :laugh4:

We'll see what happens with the voting though.

There's been more than a few surprises over the months.

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there were only a few Crusader Counts.

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Yup I think that's it.
People start seeing the Outremer as their house, for which they use their influence. While that influence was meant as a bonus for 5 persons or so. Not for loads.

It's a simple fact that Dukes are more important than Counts, as they give Countships, now the a Count can overrule a Duke

I think it was inevitable that Outremer become a fifth house. They way it was structured it already was a fifth house in all but name. It's geographically distinct, the nobles there have their own seperate concerns, and it has a leader with the rank of King, no less.

Still it has no own family, it cannot become a house of it's own as people will have to leave houses for it

Well given players would swear allegiance to their Duke, you could pass legislation that means a Duke has to give permission for one of his nobles to go out east.

Problem is right now the east could vote it down.

Given fealty is one of the foundations of the whole system we seem to have shot ourselves in the foot.:balloon2:

Still, it's was a tricky thing in real life and I think we've simulated that nicely :laugh4:

Whats funny is that both of you are trying to convince me OOC of something I strongly believe in OOC. Just good luck convincing me IC. :laugh4:

Outremer is a perfect example of good intentions having unexpected consequences. It is the 800 lb gorilla in the room that no one wants to acknowledge. Besides giving extra influence, it is simply a fun place to be. With other parts of the map, you pretty much have to make up your own quest and identity. The Crusade mechanic in the game provides a ready made identity, quest, and built in reward system. Its something to do when you get sick of moving a stack of troops around European forests fighting stacks of enemy troops.

There is a limit as to how many Crusader Counts there can be though. There can only be 5 and 1 King. Its not like there are a dozen. The King can not hand out more CC's than there are territories and there can only be 6 territories by current law. Every house gets one territory and one CC. The King gets one. And the last is a rotating one where it goes from house to house. Swabia had the extra territory but now it is Franconia's turn.

This is something we will all have to struggle with but I urge that it be done IC. For it provides for some great RP'ing. I think an IC attempt to gut the Crusaders, like what happened to the Templars but without the death part, would be awesome.

Trying to vote on it OOC is like trying to have Chancellor elections OOC.

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Originally Posted by Privateerkev

Whats funny is that both of you are trying to convince me OOC of something I strongly believe in OOC. Just good luck convincing me IC. :laugh4:

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I fully agree. It's in your IC interest to vote against it. The Dukes should be the ones putting IC pressure on the Crusader Counts from their House to vote for the Amendment. For instance: vote for it or lose your County.

I'm a freehold Count, so I can do whatever I want!

Ahh, the politics of it all....I've not said that in so many words.

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Originally Posted by gibsonsg91921

I'm a freehold Count, so I can do whatever I want!

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Unfortunately for GH, Conrad Salier is not. :laugh4: Though he's got a while yet before he has to deal with Duke Lothar.

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Originally Posted by TinCow

I fully agree. It's in your IC interest to vote against it. The Dukes should be the ones putting IC pressure on the Crusader Counts from their House to vote for the Amendment. For instance: vote for it or lose your County.

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Jan doesn't have a county. :laugh4:

One of the many reasons Ansehelm is having a difficult time with Jan. The PM's where Ansehelm was trying to convince Jan to vote for CA 11.4 were priceless.

:beam:

God, all of this RPing as a goody-two-shoes makes me sick. :laugh4:

Yeah, if I get much more piety and chivalry I will get into that myself. I still have traits which allow me to be basically good but they are low enough to allow myself some moral flexibility. :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

God, all of this RPing as a goody-two-shoes makes me sick. :laugh4:

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Well, you could always become a religious fanatic like Max. That's just an evil with a glossy finish. I swear that somehow I will find a way to be an ally of yours eventually, in the next game if not in KOTR. Our trend of creating characters that are totally incompatible is mind-bogglingly consistent. I still hold out hope that one day I will get my hands on an insane avatar.

Charter Amendment Aardvark: All generals must begin their battles facing backwards and must run at least three counterclockwise loops around the enemy before engaging in combat.

Yes you're make me barf GH.

You're so nice it's excruciating. :laugh4:

I'm sure you want to swap and be dread hey!!

I wish there was a way to vote on some stuff right now and then vote on other stuff later. I am waffling on one piece of legislation and it has nothing to do with any IC promise. Hope I'm not making anyone bite their nails OOC but it would be funny if they were IC.

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Originally Posted by gibsonsg91921

I'm a freehold Count, so I can do whatever I want!

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Not when Gunther dies you are ~D

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Originally Posted by PrivateerKev

Jan doesn't have a county

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And he'll have a hard time getting one if he goes on like this

Well, if CA 11.4 passes, Jan will have even less reason to listen to Ansehelm. Since Jan would already have the one county he is allowed by being a Crusader Count, there would be zero ambition to have one in Europe. Other Crusaders would have to make a choice though since they hold both kinds.

Also, does this mean the King loses his King influence no matter what? He gets to be a count but he can't be a Crusader Count (because he is the King) and the legislation leaves no wording saying what influence a King gets.

Well, the King has been getting the +1 Crusader Count bonus since the position began, so I assume he will keep it. It isn't spelled out specifically, though, so there is room for argument/exploitation.

Well, I actually can not find anywhere in the original Outremer charter that specifically gives the King +1. It is in the Chancellor report thread but not the rules in the OOC thread. Maybe econ would like to throw in a small rule clarification that says "for purpose of influence, King of Outremer = Crusader Count". That would clear that up.

I guess it's too late to throw an OOC clarification in.

Any objections?

Well, I would like a clarification as to how much influence King Salier actually gets. Currently, he gets +1 for being a King even though I can not find it explicitly stated in the rules and he gets +1 for being a count.

If we go by the "spirit of the law" then he is by law a Crusader Count for purposes of influence since it is the only thing in the actual rules that bestows that on him.

If CA 11.4 passes, it puts the King in an interesting spot. If he is, in spirit, a Crusader Count, then the section of CA 11.4 that states, "They will gain +1 influence, but only if they are not already a Count in their Duchy," means that the King would automatically lose his Bavarian province. Unless he resigns immediately. If he is not, in spirit, a Crusader Count, then he shouldn't even have the +1 influence for being King and he gets to keep the +1 for being a count. Either way it seems like he is losing 1 influence but we do not seem to know from where.

Also, I find it interesting that the people pushing for this are using the argument that a Duke should have more influence than a Count but this legislation makes it almost impossible for a King to have more influence than his Crusaders. Even more ironic, is the fact that CA 11.4 makes Outremer more like a duchy while simultaneously hobbling the "Duke's" influence. First let me state why the King almost can't have more influence than his Crusaders and then I will address how CA 11.4 makes Outremer more of a Duchy. The only way the King can have more influence than his Crusaders, is if he is a chancellor, ex-chancellor, prince and all of his crusaders are none of those.

We OOC and IC keep stating that Outremer is not a Duchy but we are about to make it more like one. We already have in place a system where the King can bestow land upon his crusaders much like a Duke does. And the King is regarded as a Duke for purposes of army command. CA 11.4 will further give ducal power by:

(a). Allowing the King to have "house" edicts.
(b). Giving the option for Crusaders to essentially leave their own house by forcing them to abandon their lands in Europe if they want to have land in Outremer.

I would personally prefer to find a way for the King to keep a +1 influence for being King and a +1 influence for being a count. Either that or give the King +2 influence and make him renounce his county.

These are just my thoughts. Any suggestions? :book: