A Numidian tribe, the Bosporean kingdom and a faction consisting of Massalia and it's colony Emporion were considered as factions. The Ligurians and Caledonians were not for obvious reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by General Appo
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A Numidian tribe, the Bosporean kingdom and a faction consisting of Massalia and it's colony Emporion were considered as factions. The Ligurians and Caledonians were not for obvious reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by General Appo
Right, so, just throwing in my two cents. I think that in the interest of maximizing unique factions and balancing out the game-board, it would make sense to get rid of these factions: casse, armenians, and aedui (or averni).
The reason for getting rid of casse is simply that to balance Casse out, another faction would have to be thrown up there; and as the British Isles were not renowned for exotic or amazing warfare, this faction would be very similar to the Casse, and thus a waste. Also, I find playing as Casse to be kind of a bore for the first century or so; just fighting against rebels the whole time. Getting rid of Case would free up space for one of the new factions I propose.
Getting rid of the aedui would also free up another space, and as it is a very similar faction to the averni, it is not needed.
In their place, I would like to see:
1) a strong, unique faction either between aedui and sweboz, in the nethersland area; or a faction in lower Germany and western France
*This would be to balance out the Aedui and Sweboz. This faction should not be sandwiched between them if at all possible, but they should all share borders in a triangular manner. It could incorporate alpine troops, or something to that effect.
2) an Indian faction
*To add more color to the eastern part of the map, and give it political intrigue on the same scale as in Europe.
3) A faction in Southern France and along the eastern Spanish shore
*This would check the Lus., challenge Carthage in Spain along the eastern coast, and give the Romans a good fight in westward expansion. To make this faction more interesting, incorporating special Greek units along the shore would be helpful, perhaps available only in particular cities, as is true for the K.H.
Also, a stronger Dacian faction would be good to check expansion in that area.
Ah, and I forgot: the reason I think the Armenians should be taken out is not because I do not like them, but because it will free up room for these other factions. Also, I do not believe it will upset the geo-political situation in that area. It will leave more room open to Pontus, which will continue to provide a threat to the Sec. Empire; in that way, its strategic influence will continue.
Cloudtripz, firstly, the edit button is your friend.
Secondly, how can a desire to maximise "unique factions" be reconciled with taking out 3 unique factions. The Aedui/Arverni are the same as they represent the battle for gallic turf that existed between the Old Power of the Gauls (the Aedui) and the usurper (the Arverni). To take out one is to basically ruin the other. Hayasdan is a beautiful and unique faction, an odd cross between persia, the steppes and later the greeks, their place on the map is unique (how could one of the most important mountain ranges in the ancient world go without a faction?!). Finally the Casse, with their fanatical devotion to the hero cult, which gives them a unique battle plan, are one of the most unqiue factions out there.
Thirdly, you do realise that EBII is on the MTW2 engine, and the MTW2 engine offers 10 more factions on top of the original 20. Why would we get rid of three when we have 10 new ones to fill.
Foot
Oops, I apologize, I totally thought there were limits to number of factions ...
Yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by foot
Boii, Lugii, Helveti, Bosphorans...
A Northern European tribe(Norway, Sweden,) could put those Germans in there place. And it would be a good faction to stop the Sweboz from expanding faster so they would have to worry about there northern flank. Thus bring them to fight north and to there west. The Sweboz always in my game were this chunk of red expanding every where.
The problem would be that if I've understood correctly the Sweboz represent roughly the northern-most occurrence of enough political unity and structure to make a faction around 272BC, though...
I might could find some stuff, your from the or around area, do you want to help on the research if its at all possible for them create such a faction?Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
These are the ten new factions that I think would be the most appropriate for EBII:
Five Celtic (and mixed Celtic) Factions:
The Galatians
A Celt-Iberian faction - the Arevaci or Vaccaei
The Treveri (Celto-Germanic)
The Bastarnae
Another faction in Gaul to compete with the Aedui and Arverni - the Carnutes, Sequani or Senones
It seems like a lot of the same (and a strange personal choice, as I rarely play as the Celtic factions), but each one of these is quite varied and different to each other (except perhaps for the last). They also help to prevent ridiculous AI Eleutheroi expansion, and force the AI factions to fight against each other. Galatians threaten Pontos, Seleucids and Ptolemies, the Celt-Iberians have the same effect on the Lusotana, Carthage, and the Gallic factions, the Treveri could help stop the Sweboz western expansion, as well as causing more trouble for the Gallic factions. The Bastarnae could possibly hamper Sweboz eastern expansion, and interact with the Getai, Sauromatae, and any other new factions in this region. And finally, I think that a third Gallic faction would more realistically present the state of Gaul in this period, and create a greater challenge for the Gallic player and AI.
Three city-states - Massalia, Syracuse and Kyrene
These would also prevent the AI taking very strong provinces as a result of Eleutheroi hunger. Massalia would add a further dynamic to Gaul, which would mean that the region, if the factions listed above were implemented, would have very few Eleutheroi provinces. Syracuse is another roadblock for Epeiros and Rome (and to lesser extent Carthage), while Kyrene breaks up the inevitable Ptolemaic-Carthaginian wars. It would be good to give these city-states their own particular flavour, and perhaps limit their imperial expansion but make them strong in home defence (scripted armies?).
A Numidian Faction - the Massyli
This faction would be a godsend in preventing Carthage's African Eleutheroi Empire. It would also be interesting to apply some of the featues of the nomadic factions to a faction in this part of the world. This faction will most likely make it in, and the one that I am looking most forward to playing.
The Bosporan Kingdom
This one has already been discussed quite a bit, and with good reason. It would have a varied and exotic unit roster, as well as a rather unique starting position for an Hellenic faction. It would be ideal, however, if this faction could be made to interact with Asia Minor and Greece, rather than merely expanding into the Steppe.
Other contenders - in order of most appropriate to least appropriate:
Noricum
The Lugii
Pergamon
A second Germanic faction (though I did suggest the Treveri and Bastarnae above)
Tylis (i.e. a Celtic faction in Thrace)
A Skythian faction
An Irish faction
Most of these were rather weak during the period of EB. Even so, I think that the first three are definite contenders (though I know that many do not like the idea of a Pergamon faction). An Irish faction would really only be significant for the Casse player. I think it's quite clear that there will be no Illyrian, Indian, Thracia, or Kushite faction.
Any thoughts on these suggestions for new factions in EBII?
Ok, I will go again with my suggestion:
Attalid Kingdom, Illyrian Kingdom, Kush Kingdom, Indian Kingdom (I think maybe two Indian kingdoms), one from China if possible (AND you have the China mod for that - it is very, very nice), Syracusai-Kyrene... + maybe .. Indo Greeks betwean Baktria and India?:curtain:
Hey, I'm from the chunk that first started getting some semblance of larger political unity in the 1100s AD - and that was brought by the Swedes when they took over the place.Quote:
Originally Posted by SixFeetUnder14w
Far as I know the rest of Scandinavia wasn't much better off in terms of political organisation until the damn Viking times. Latter parts thereof, too, since all the little tribes and kings and whatnots weren't very keen on or receptive to some wonk telling them what to do.
Before the Baktrians came down from the Hindu Kush, wasn't there like... a few thousands of those guys or something ? Not exactly what I'd call a major mover and shaker...Quote:
Originally Posted by Maksimus
That was sarcasm wasn't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by maksimus
A THIRD Gaulish faction? Hopefully not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turnus
Already, at least in EB I, the AI Arverni/Aedui have enough problems with one another, and usually either the Romans start conquering Gaul, or BOTH Lusotanians and Romani fight to become the masters of southern half of Gaul (and later possibly the norhern half's, too).
I've yet to witness a Gaulish faction to do any significant expanding (beyond Gaul).
No - it is my bad :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Admetos
But can one Indian faction be in anyway?
And about those Indo-Greeks - I ment the regions betwean India and Baktria - I just did not know how to call them :shrug: ... you know, in EB there were some states betwean India and Baktria that are rebel but were once under Alexander and still have some hellenic marks.. maybe a faction would be nice there :shrug:
Hello!
As you can probably guess by my name, my favourit faction is already in there, but I will list some factions I would like to see anyway.
1. Numidia: Not only because there is an urgent need for a north african faction to compete with the Carthaginians, but also because they played an important role in the punic wars, and even more so,in the Jugurthine wars.
Their unit rooster would probably consist of light cavalry and infantry, with elephant support.
2. Some eastern faction: I can't seem to think of any powerful enough to motivate a faction though. Perhaps some Seleucid satrapy, which, like the Baktrians, starts off as a Seleucid ally. Maybe the Persians. To my knowledge, they were more of a vassal to the parthians during their reign, anyway.
3. Boii: There have been a lot of discussions about some eastern european faction, and the Boii are, in my opinion, the best candidates.
4. Some Scythian-hellenic kingdom. Although the Scythians were i decline at the time, they were still present on the north-western shore of the black sea, although intermixt with the hellenes there. This faction could have an interesting mix of greek and steppe units, and, once again in my opinion, would make more sense than a bosphoran kingdom faction, which was basically a vassal to Pontus, at least during the later stages of the EB-era.
5. Thrace was one of my favourite factions in "Vanilla" RTW, but as EB starts after the collaps of Lysimachus kingdom, such a faction would be ahistorical.
If there were any powerful thracian kingdom at the time, it would be a great addition, but another possability is top include either Bithynia or the Attalid kingdom. This would not only add extra flavour to this already interesting area, but also give a more accurate representation of the political situation in western Anatolia.
Finaly, as the idea of Meroë as a faction has been rejected, another faction in this part of the world would be welcome. Perhaps Charakene. Apparantly, their kings called themselves "Kings of the Arabs", and this seems to indicate thet they were not entirely without ambition. Otherwise maybe Nabateans.
Anyway, I'm sure that whatever factions trhe EB-team chooses to include, they will be great, and a lot of fun to play!
Go EB2!
Caucasian Iberia would be an interesting addition, though it might be too crowded with Armenia nearby, and one or the other would inevitably be choked. If emerging kingdoms like Pergamon are being considered, I would vote for Charakene or the Scythian kingdom of Skiluros.
The main power in India at this time was the Maurean Empire, but since it would be mostly of the map (and seems to have shown little interest in expanding west) it is definetly not going to be a faction. A Maurean Satrapy, on the other hand, has been mentioned as a possibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maksimus
Heading back to North Africa, I have thought a bit about that Numidian faction I mentioned earlirer, and came to the conclusion that this might be better represented by two factions.
Perhaps one Massylian-Numidian and one Mauretanian faction. (I think someona had this idea earlier, though...) This would surely make this part of the map far more interesting.
I do not know much about the political situation of this area in 272 b.C., but I know that during the Jugurthine wars, there were two separate kingdoms there, who were allies. (The Massylian-Numidian king Jugurtha was betrayed to the Romans by the Mauretanian king, Bocchus, though.)
Given the 10-faction restriction, I know two new north african factions might be a lot to ask for, but I think it would both give a more realistic representation of the area, and improve gameplay, while it would severely hamper the Carthaginian quest for African domination.
Methinks the earlier counter bears repeating:Quote:
Originally Posted by Maksimus
The Mauryan "autonomous satrapy" possibility Ludens mentioned is of course a different thing (and would pretty much be what the pre-Baktria Indo-Greeks were under anyway, if I've understood correctly).Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
Here are my suggestions:
1. Yuezhi (emergent faction)
2. Mauryan Empire
3. Numidia
4. Nabataea
5. Bosporus
6. pergamon
7. Illyria or other European faction
8. Rhodes
9. Cyrenecia
10. Mauritania or another European faction.
Presumably some form of scripting would be possible, if certain conditions were met, to enable the off-map Mauryans to open a can of whup-ass on the IndoGreeks if they got too autonomous (read: big / rich / outside India)? For gameplay and variety I think this would be a great faction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
I'd also love to see
1. Sciri
2. Bastarnae
These could provide a bit more colour in E. Europe and constrain the Getai / Sweboz.
3. Bosphoran Kingdom
Interesting unit roster and map position.
4. Massyli
All sorts of gameplay possibilities and a good anti-faction for Kart-Hadast.
5. & 6. Additional tribes in the British Isles [Silures?] and Spain, though I have no ideas which...
And of course Meroe, if it were at all practically possible... which it appears it is not. I have come to terms with my disappointment.:shame:
Why don't most of the guys read the rest of the bloody topic. This is a discussion and it is starting to look like a converstion with a very very drunken guy:
- Hey, I want to go home!
- You drunken b@stard! You already are home!
- But I want to go home!
- YOU ARE HOME!
- Take me Home!!
What I meant is that some factions were obviously ruled out and still they are being suggested. Which is the main reason there are 13 pages on this topic. If you still insist to voice your opinion, please make a poll which will obviously be useless.
Just putting this out here as my 2 cents, but what about Qatabân? They seem to have been an Arabian faction whose star was on the ascendant during Eb's time period, in contrast to the Sab'yn, who were struggling by this period.
But then 2 Arab factions probably wouldn't work out, and in any case it would mean one replacing the other, which would be no fun at all, so I guess there's little chance of seeing this other Arab power :no:
I didn't want to start a new thread so I decided to post here ~D .
I would like to bring a bit more attention to Meroe, even after it was decided it certainly won't be in eb2. I was discussing a lot about the Nubian kingdom in this and the AtB thread and I've come to some ideas I would like to share. If there was a possibility to add Meroe (enough faction and culture slots), the main problem would be the Nubian military.
They would start only with a limited unit roster which, as described by Strabo, would include spearmen, axemen, swordsmen and archers.
When they desired three days for consideration, and did nothing which they were bound to do, Petronius attacked and compelled them to fight. They soon fled, being badly commanded, and badly armed; for they carried large shields made of raw hides, and hatchets for defensive weapons; some, however, had pikes, and others swords. Strabo, Geography
Nubians also had cavalry - as the prophet Isaiah said, Jerusalem had seek help from the Nubian king because of its "trust in the multitude of their chariots and in the great strength of their horsemen". Nubian king Pye was even buried with his beloved horses. In EB time-frame though their cavalry would not be of much value, it would be best represented by the Ethiopian cavalry.
Elephants would be probably also part of Nubian warfare, as they were one of the biggest exporters of them.
The change would come after Nubia would successfully conquer part of Egypt. Nubians could get a reform (something like Restoration of Nubian Pharaohs). My idea is that Nubian pharaohs would act much like the Late Period pharaohs. The pharaohs of the Egyptian Late Period considered the local soldiers to be unreliable and started to settle foreign mercenaries in Egypt (Ionians, Carians, Jews, Arameans and Phoenicians).
Apries having heard this also, armed his foreign mercenaries and marched against the Egyptians: now he had about him Carian and Ionian mercenaries to the number of thirty thousand; and his royal palace was in the city of Sais, of great size and worthy to be seen. So Apries and his army were going against the Egyptians, and Amasis and those with him were going against the mercenaries; and both sides came to the city of Momemphis and were about to make trial of one another in fight. Herodotus, The Histories
The settled mercenaries formed a core of the Late Period armies. The last native pharaoh was defeated by Persians in 343, only 11 years before the Alexander arrived in Egypt! When the Nubians invaded Egypt in 743 BC they quickly adopted Egyptian culture and along with that, Egyptian warfare. Why something similar couldn't happen later? After conquering part of Egypt, Nubians would be easily able to hire Greek mercenaries from the settled Greek population. Accompanied with Nubian and Egyptian troops the Greeks would form the late Nubian armies. The Greeks would be probably recruited in native MIC because historically pharaohs of the Late Period didn't rely on client/allied rulers to support them with mercenaries. Settled mercenaries were more like pharaoh's personal guard, so ingame they would be part of native MIC.
For the Nubian governments I would suggest:
1.Kushite royal province - ruled directly by Pharaoh
2.Kushite nomarchy - ruled by nomarch
3.Kushite subjugated tribe/kingdom - occupied territory
4.Kushite allied kingdom - allied territory
I thought of making a minimod which would add Nubia as a playable faction. The best platform would be AtB because it has free faction and culture slot and enough space in East Africa region for a new faction. But I don't have enough time and skills to do it myself :wall: (and seems it will take a long time before the AtB will be released).
So, any thoughts on these suggestions? Also if anyone knows about some good sites or books about Nubia/Meroe and Late Period Egypt, please let me know :bow: .
(please forgive me my poor English :sweatdrop: )
Here are some sites where you can find information about Ancient Nubia and Egypt:
Nubia:
http://www.nubianet.org/about/index.html
http://wysinger.homestead.com/mapofnubia.html
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/nubia1.html
Late Period Egypt:
http://www.touregypt.net/hdyn30.htm
http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/timelines/topics/army.htm
An article about Nubian conquest of Egypt in National Geographic
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ng...aper-text.html
(surely not the best source of historical information, but can give a image of how Nubians and their culture looked like :egypt: )
Here is what I could scrounge up in the best book I could find on them:Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of Perun
If you are interested, this would be a good place to start a unit lineup with. They would probably be a faction if we had five more slots, but they aren't on the borderline (of getting into EB2 as their own faction). Hope we have some good local units for EB2 in these lands though, but they will still have to share the Carthie/Sabaean/?:grin:?/?:grin:? culture group, and thus won't have nubian looking generals.Quote:
Saw a good looking book on Kush and checked it out. It's a 1998 book called The Kingdom of Kush, by David Welsby, British Museum excavator in the Sudan since 1982.
It has a little about the Kush army, here are some highlights:
"The people to the south of Aswan... were famed as archers, and this concentration on archery is a feature of Kushite armies. The stela of Harsiyotef records a number of campaigns in which the king sent out his bowmen to do battle with a variety of foes. Nastasen also sent his bowmen against the chief Kambasuten and against a number of rebel groups. The Harsiyotef inscription also mentions the use of horsemen. Kushite cavalry may be depicted on the south wall of the podium at the Sun Temple, Meroe, where there are several galloping horsemen armed with lances and wearing some sort of helmet. There is no evidence for the use of the camel in Kushite warfare and this may be compared with the rarity of dromedarii in the Roman army, which also operated in similar arid areas.
Herodotus, writing in the fifth century BC, describes Kushite soldiers who were part of the army of Xerxes as follows:
"The Ethiopians were clothed in panthers' and lions' skins, and carried long bows, not less than four cubits in length, made from branches of palm trees, and on them they placed short arrows made of cane; instead of iron, they were tipped with a stone, which was made sharp, and of that sort on which they engrave seals. Besides this they had javelins, and at the tip was an antelope hortn, made sharp like a lance; they had also knotted clubs. When they were going into battle they smeared one half of their body with chalk, and the other half with red ocre."
Archaeology graphically confirms some of Herdotus' observations. Although objects of copper-alloy and iron are known from early in the Kushite period, arrowheads of stone are a common find in royal tombs as well as in the more humble graves. Among the stones employed were flint, quartz, and carnelian."
"Over 400 years later Strabo, describing the Kushite troops that opposed the Roman army, noted that they were badly armed. Most were equipped with a large shield made of raw hides and hatchets. Some, however, had pikes or swords. Elsewhere he notes that the Kushites used bows of wood four cubits long and hardened by fire."
"From the weaponry recovered from graves the evidence for the importance of archery is overwhelming, although much of this ordinance may have been for hunting."
"...The special quiver provided for these arrows and the discoloration on the arrowheads have been though to indicate that these were poisoned arrows. This quiver is a copper-alloy cylinder suspended from a chain and with bells attached. Other examples are of leather, often very elaborately decorated."
"Remains of bows are very rare."
"The presence of the archer's loose implies the use of the Mongolian release, where the thumb holds the bowstring, rather than two or more fingers being used, as in the Mediterranean release."
"Spear or lance heads, one of the latter with a hollow iron shaft, are frequently recovered from graves, as well as rare examples of swords. A sword recovered from tomb Beg.W.134 at Meroe, unfortunately published without any measurements, appears to be a long thin weapon with parallel sides and a pointed tip. A similar weapon with a rounded pommel at the end of the hilt is depicted on a relief at the Sun Temple at Meroe in the right hand of a warrior, who wears the scabbard suspended by a strip high on his right side."
"Prince Arikhankharer is shown wielding an axe on a sandstone relief probably from Meroe, and axe heads, albeit not of this type, have been found in Kushite graves."
"There is very little evidence for the use of body armour by the Kushites. The war god Apedemak and a number of rulers are depicted on reliefs wearing what appears to be scale armour. However, there is no evidence that this was actually armour. This type of costume is common in Egyptian iconography, particularly on representations of Amun, in contexts where the wearing of armour would not be apposite. No armour of this type has been recovered from excavations on Kushite sites."
A cuirass was found among grave goods at Karanog - "the cuirass was made of leather with the hair left on the outer side. The leather has been worked up from within into a decorative relief pattern of knobs and bars. The use of shields is noted in the ancient sources. Graffiti at Musawwarat es Sufra shows warriors with large sub-rectangular shields. Shield bosses have occasionally been identified in the archaeological record."
"Arrian records that before elephants were employed in warfare by the Macedonians and Carthaginians, they were used by the Ethiopians [Kushites] and the Indians." "The elephant is described in Kushite art. At Musawwarat es Sufra reliefs of elephants are common. One of these shows a king riding an elephant." "On the northwest wall of the Lion Temple a file of elephants leads prisoners on ropes. Among the rare accounts of battles between Kushites and the outside world there is, however, no record of elephants being employed."
"There is again no evidence that the chariot was used in a military context, although light two-wheeled horse-drawn vehicles are depicted in processions."
They basically had as a threat nomadic raiding parties. "To combat such assailants the Kushite bowman and horseman will have been ideal."
.
I bet my galley slave's left arm that one of the ?~D?s are a Numidian faction. :yes:
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I came across an Early argument from one of the Mods on the TWC about the Clouds Across Europe Mod saying they can only get 30 Factions max.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bootsiuv
Some have argued 30 Playable including Rebels making 31.
:thumbsdown:
Its 30 playable factions + 1 rebel.
Foot