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Pages and pages and pages of writing on this topic. So I bet it's been answered but I haven't found it in the book that's been written here. These are instructions for RTW+BI+ALEX+EB. So will the game run without BI, but all of the others? I can't figure out which fixes and edits are just for BI, and which are for Alex without BI, if there is such a thing. ;)
BI has nothing to do with it. Some (originaly) BI-features, such as night battles, can be used with the ALX.exe because they are part of the ALX code.
In the main post - BI.exe is suggested because there will be support from 'ALXEBTeam' on BI.exe too, so if you want tu use only ALX.exe you don't need BI :no:Quote:
Originally Posted by Danest
As I mentioned - EB team has it's own reasons for not supporting ALX.exe:shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by lt1956
I think it is mostly because most of the top EB team 'officials' don't have Alex at all (that is one info from EB team)
Do, 'AlexEBTeam' supports it and we will make it nice for all player's that want to use ALX.exe for EB :san_wink:
Which Alexander patch is recommended to install after Alexander? Or is no patch recommended?
No, no patch, 1.9 is final.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ymarsakar
Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palasta
Mak, you might want to change the line to "Alex is 1.9 final version" instead of 1.9 patch, since it gives a different meaning.Quote:
Alex is 1.9 patch and the finall mark of RTW creators... so it is the best and that represents all the hard work of the CA and Activision!
It is just perfect for EB 1, and as you see it is easy to make it work !
DOne:san_wink:
Ok, let us go with a Lite-lite version that will be uploaded before NewYear!
For these changes I only sugest:
1- ''ai_do_not_attack_faction'' enabled as tested
2- ''NightBattleCapable 1'' enabled for couple of faction's (I suggest Stepe, German's and Saba, ok, and Briton's maybe and also Dacia) - that means that one general (or two for Stepe) would have ''NightBattleCapable 1'' added
3- What is that you don't like in ''C_script'' that is modified by barrack's issue by myself so we change it and finish it!
4- Adding Lgk's money script that is finished (or also to add Konny's work if it is finished - or make it optional, I think Lgk did not make Win_Condition's:shrug: )
Now - What could and may not be done in a few days!
5- Adding units at the start that will represent armies that would be there at that time (like more medium infantry) - all in C_script!
6- Adding ''DESCR_MERCENARIES.TXT'' with +1 expirience to all of them
7- Adding ''export_descr_unit.txt'' that has modified Hit Point's for Horse Archers from 1,1 - 1,3, also that goes for Elephant's to 1,4 and to phalanx from 1,1-1,3 (and SShields 1,4) - This will only affect autocalculations :grin:
8- Originaly posted by LGK: '' Also with these HA improvements steppe factions personalities have to be changed back to "genghis". Well, maybe "henry" is still acceptable for Pahlava... but afaik even late settled parthians never used much infantry anyway, so same "genghis" can suit them better. Too bad we can't change personalities mid-game ''.
Any more?
What do you say?!
If you don't say anything I will make it work and upload it as BETA TEST! :boxing:
Maximus, mate. I need to ask you: how many EB campaigns so far are you through? By "through" I mean: victory conditions achieved.
I have just installed RTW, Alexander, and EB. In that order.
I've tested my Romani saved game's scroll speed with normal script and with a modified version of the EBBs script on Alexander.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=96967
Alexander has a much smoother scroll in comparison, and the AI turn times, at the beginning with so many factions and stuff going on, is very noticeable on the new cut down EB background script. A drastic difference really.
As for regular Alexander speed increases with the normal 1.0 background script, I only saw a little of that. Course, I haven't been playing at EB's normal speed for awhile, so Alex would still seem very slow to me in comparison.
Btw, Maksimus, I was wondering whether the downloaded links for the Alexander conversion on your first post here contains the newest 1.0 permanent fixes bovi put up?
Everytime time Bovi makes a move I am on it :laugh4:
Last update that is included in ''the'' download links are ''Script fixes - Updated 2007-12-14''
That means I updated the download links on 15-12-2007 as you can see:curtain:
And I don't know what kind of ''modified version of the EBBs script'' you use or what is your PC coniguration :shrug:
Still, the point is, if you have a low-end PC (that means less then 2gigs of RAM and CPU that is not 64bit and some mainboard that is 'older') - you wont notice anything in term's of game speed :no:
Still, with a more powerfull machine - you get proportionaly 1,3 or 1,5 times faster EB on ALX.exe
It's just that test's are of no value if I test it on my PC - so I can't bring fact's here for your's or other's Personal Computer's :no:
None.
I don't play 'EB victory conditions' paths - they are not relevant for my gameplay as it is - I tend 'NOT' to role-play my faction. The ancient war's were not a scenario you had to follow so I don't like role-playing:no:
But If you want to see some of my campaign's you should look on these two thread's
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=94993
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...t=93151&page=5
Btw, I play and mod RTW for year's now, so I don't need to win with ALL or ANY faction's and then see what to do or what could be done better (even EB team doesn't do that.. they would never have so many of EBBS and other bugs if they have 'achived victory conditions' for all faction's before they set download links for EB 10) :coffeenews:
And you can adress me as - друг
:2thumbsup: I appreciate that :yes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Maksimus
Maksimus, my opinion is that EB differs greatly from other mods. Even the best of the rest (I mean RTR) however good it is, besides graphics and unit textures is currently on different level.
Me thinks EB is a very balanced mod with a good set of rules and principles that need minor and very careful adjustment. And it seems that you, my friend, just didn't had enough time to feel EB full richness.
That is why I ask you to take your time and without further rush enjoy it. It is a very fragile structure and by implementing zillion of changes immediately there is a chance that we could ruin it all (I was completely surprised, BTW, to see your latest idea of raising mercs experience by one. Where did that came from, I wonder? And how this should improve the mod? And the main question: why are you so sure that current mercs are not good enough?)
Friend, we have all the time in the world to experiment. I'm playing my latest campaign for the last month and I will gladly continue to do so (even though I've already achieved victory conditions) as long as 1.1. is not coming out.
Please, don't rush :yes:
Cheers
The first time 'someone' (and me also in couple of threads) raised the question's of 'why' mercs don't have at least +1 experience due to their professional soldier service (very rare in the ancient world) - the first one that said 'YES' to that was Bovi! One EB team member, then there was also some other EB members that said 'it could be an option'. But then, only Foot came along and said 'We wont do that because it imbalance's the game'Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniMe
And if you have a situation where you can recruit your 'green' unit's that can have +2 experience and +2 or +4 morale bonuses somewhere - you unbalance the game too.. see? Current mercs are good enough when there are no bonuses for other unit's neither, but if you have a situation that some 'very famous' mercs (like ones Alexander used alot) have no experience bonus - you have one discrimination that aims to make mercs weaker than they were:ballchain:
EB is the best mod for me. He is also very balanced mod with a good set of rules and principles that need very careful adjustment. And you must know that for example (again:curtain: ) City Mod is made and supported by EB team because 'many' EB player's don't agree with 'all' EB vanilla balance:wall:
Anyway's - You know there will be one "AlexanderEBLite" mod (ALEM) that would have minor changes (obviously you and Konny support that)!
And there will also be 'Extended Alexander EB mod' (EAEM) that will have major changes (some that are not in line of EB stream - and this is supported by myself and Lgk.)!
Note that (EAEM) will be support EB player's on any *exe (that means they will work on RTW.exe, BI.exe and ALX.exe based EB games)
These changes that are suggested to take place 'are minor and very careful adjusted'. And they will surely go in ALEM. Let me review it:
1- ''ai_do_not_attack_faction'' enabled as tested - This means that most of scripting is not relevant any more - that option is of more importance than ANYONE can imagine - it is so important that I am SURE EB team would support EB on ALX.exe if they could be sure 90% of EB fans have it (but they don't - so it wont happen)
2- ''NightBattleCapable 1'' enabled for couple of faction's (I suggest Stepe, German's and Saba, ok, and Briton's maybe and also Dacia) - that means that one general (or two for Stepe) would have ''NightBattleCapable 1'' added.
This should be in already! I had numerous PM's and question's 'why can't I play at night' - Well! It's because no general is set to use it in ''descr_start.txt'' - and that means you will have to waith to make one general as good as Pyrros so you can actually fight at night (which may take 20 turns).
3- What is that you don't like in ''C_script'' that is modified by barrack's issue by myself so we change it and finish it! This just add's to the gameplay and reality..
4- Adding Lgk's money script that is finished (or also to add Konny's work if it is finished - or make it optional, I think Lgk did not make Win_Condition's )
And this add's to the gamplay too - this script is wonderfull
Now - What could and may not be done in a few days!
5- Adding units at the start that will represent armies that would be there at that time (like more medium infantry) - all in C_script! This is already done by Konny and you I think :shrug:
6- Adding ''DESCR_MERCENARIES.TXT'' with +1 expirience to all of them - this is due to gamplay
7- Adding ''export_descr_unit.txt'' that has modified Hit Point's for Horse Archers from 1,1 - 1,3, also that goes for Elephant's to 1,4 and to phalanx from 1,1-1,3 (and SShields 1,4) - This will only affect autocalculations - This will be in EB 11 for Horse Archers and maybe some other unit's
8- Originaly posted by LGK: '' Also with these HA improvements steppe factions personalities have to be changed back to "genghis". Well, maybe "henry" is still acceptable for Pahlava... but afaik even late settled parthians never used much infantry anyway, so same "genghis" can suit them better. Too bad we can't change personalities mid-game ''. And this i practical solution
These are mostly minor changes most of the player's wont notice at all (exept those that read this thread)...
And, you see,.. All mod's in development at the start make 'basic rules and figures' (like ones 'the cavalry was not as powerfull as in RTW vanilla' so they are very underpowered.. or Gaeste with 2Hit points ... or Elephant's that can be killed by a SINGLE peltst unit!).. that is how it is
I agree with MiniMe that less changes is better, as long as they are enough. Even more, anything new should be tested one at a time. About balance - i'd like to see faction progression as historical as possible and all factions surviving at least until about 200 bce... that is, if human player also follows history, otherwise AI factions should be strong enough to defend themselves.
Now to latest Maksimus arguments:
1. I'm still uneasy about using ai_not_attack_faction option because it looks like cheating and in ideal case needs another good portion of (already bloated) scripting. Methinks we should strive to get good result (AI progression) without using this option, and then implement it to have perfect result.
2. I suggest giving this trait to older generals only (most likely a faction leader), otherwise clever human will enjoy obvious advantage far too long in early game.
3. Not sure i understand that sentence... :) But i like extensive use of C_script in any case. :)
4. What you mean? Optional what? Konny's script is based on wrong ideas imo (sorry, konny) and can actually cause problems in the long run; and win_conditions are absolutely unrelated to any money scripting.
5. Ok, methinks (taking tougher alex rebels into account) it won't speed early ahistorical expansion much.
6. No big deal, let's try it.
7. Exact values are to be chosen and tested carefully! It's better to start conservative imo.
And don't forget that elephants' and chariots' extra hps do have effect on tactical battles as well. Though these units are ridiculously underpowered in EB imo (aggravated by the fact that AI can't use them well). I prefer 6 extra hps for elephants and 2 extra hps for chariots... plus additional bonus like power_charge and very_hardy (elephants only). Something like TWFanatic did. But well, fixing EDU in general is of course another story, there are other units having wrong stats.
8. Other factions personalities are also open field for experiments... but let's limit them to steppe factions only in this beta.
P.S. Hope i will have time to add these fear/hate traits to rebel generals in descr_strat in 2-3 days, so we can see if it does any good as well.
First I want to make one announcement ! ''RTR team'' leader ''MarcusCorneliusMarcellus'' PM gave 'AlexEBTEema' (us!) the permission to use any ''RTR'' art with a credit to RTR team !
''dvk901'' of ''Roma Surrectum'' will give premission for RS art If we PM ask for a specific thing, .. SPQR is still an option (I did not have any answers yet)
So this is wonderfull to know (for EAEM:curtain: )..
1. I think we should not use ''ai_do_not_attack_faction'' option unless it is the last option! But I doubt scripting can help here :no:. I'll give one example:
Egypt almost always wins over AS (and takes Antioh fast which was not the case!), after that he is in AMinor and win's even faster over Pontos (if he is not destroyed by AS until 220bc) and while he is wining over AS (boostinf it's advantage with his 'share' right), Egypt goes to Europe all the way to Crimea and Adriatic Sea! And nothing can stop him unless human plays against him from Greece or Asia Minor.
Now, I have tested 2 Casse 'end-turn' campaigns and I am 80% sure that no scripting can help if we have clear ''ai_do_not_attack_faction'' option enabled:shrug:
So these are my conclusion's that have been tested and posted 'HERE' as you had the chance to see it.
If we don't use ''ai_do_not_attack_faction'' there will be more 'scripting' that would probably slow the game more and will never bring as clear results ad ''ai option'' does :shrug: - that is my opinion
I propose the following!
Note: have in mind that ''ai_do_not_attack_faction'' reflect's only 'onesided' - that means if Pontos are not allowed to attack Armenia (while Armenia can attack Pontos), Pontos will fight and destroy Armenia if she attack's after some time ! So by adding ''ai_do_not_attack_faction'' to Pontos aimed at Armenia - we only prolong peace ! We don't cheat :no: , Armenia will eventualy attack Pontos in the future - but Pontos will focus it's power on Asia Minor and Greece only (until Armenia hit's - only then he will fight - I have tested this alot) - which was the case in history :san_wink:
Note2:I have already tested the 'scripting' you can se down and It is very very very very nice.. I am amaized actually - the reasults are one thing no one could imagine :no: - it solves so much that the script is not needed in 50% of the cases:wall:
; ---------------------------------------------------------
; ######### romans_brutii - Baktria #########
; ---------------------------------------------------------
faction romans_brutii, trader smith
ai_do_not_attack_faction pontus, parthia
This is set because Baktria is very often in the stepe - and it should be in AS territory and India - when this is set Pahlava and Saka Rauka can attack Baktria first and only then Baktria will move into the stepe's (but before this happens - and it wont happen fast - Baktria heads up to India and AS!
; ---------------------------------------------------------
; ######### greek_cities - Koinon Hellenon #########
; ---------------------------------------------------------
faction greek_cities, balanced smith
ai_do_not_attack_faction thrace
KH always beats Makedonia (if sometimes not only so fast in Pella) even with LGK's script! And this way - KH expansion is slower! ... It is amazing how KH stops in expansion to Epeiros that may be fighting hard in Italy. This way! - KH heads up to AsiaMinor and there KH can be suppressed. So, we leave Epeiros (that is much weaker oposing to KH) the ability to attack KH when he has his strenghts! After that KH will fight - but if it is in AMinor it can not win so fast - So we prolong the faction's life even more by this and in the mean time we enable Epeiros to stay a bit longer in Italy:grin:
; ---------------------------------------------------------
; ######### romans_scipii - Hayasdan #########
; ---------------------------------------------------------
faction romans_scipii, fortified henry
ai_do_not_attack_faction romans_julii
Armenia is set (by my opinion) not to attack AS because that makes it's life much longer, it makes AS concentrate on Aegypt and it makes Armenia spread in the Rebel neighborhood.. By this way - Armenia wait's Egypt to win over AS (while Egypt will not attack Armenia first) and then and only when Armenia becomes regional power - it wil attack Egypt (by this it will slow down much of Egypt).. the same goes for Pontos!
; ---------------------------------------------------------
; ######### britons - Casse #########not that important
; ---------------------------------------------------------
faction britons, trader mao
ai_do_not_attack_faction gauls, scythia
; ---------------------------------------------------------
; ######### carthage - Pontos #########
; ---------------------------------------------------------
faction carthage, trader napoleon
ai_do_not_attack_faction romans_julii, romans_scipii
The same goes as for Armenia, Pontos must develop and not being destroyed by AS fast .. and it should not waste it's time in Armenia - this way Pontos reaches as far as BYZANT and PERGAMMUM and only then it attacks Aegypt (that will not attack Pontos first - which make's faction's live more)
; ---------------------------------------------------------
; ######### egypt - Karthadast #########
; ---------------------------------------------------------
faction egypt, sailor caesar
ai_do_not_attack_faction spain
In most of the cases Carthage win's over Spain and fight's in Gaul later - by that It can not focus on Italy and ROME - EVER. By adding this for Spain, Carthage will focus on Sicily adn WILL CROSS TO ITALY, and than reach as far as Rome and then loose :curtain: .. Iberia may attack Carthage anytime, but if it is not attacked by Karthadast - Iberia will spread in Rebel neighborhood most of the time!
; ---------------------------------------------------------
; ######### romans_julii - Arche Seleukideia #########
; ---------------------------------------------------------
faction romans_julii, balanced stalin
ai_do_not_attack_faction romans_scipii, romans_brutii, carthage, parthia, saba, macedon
These various options enables 'base' of long-term development of MOST of the factions! This means that AS will not be the aggressor early in the game, and that IT WILL FOCUS ONLY on EGYPT! Leaving other (mentioned faciton's) in peace untill those factions (later in the game) attack AS - if AS is around! If AS is not alive then those will attack Aegypt as much stronger factions!
; ---------------------------------------------------------
; ######### numidia - Ptolemaioi #########
; ---------------------------------------------------------
faction numidia, religious caesar
ai_do_not_attack_faction pontus, saba, egypt, parthia, romans_scipii, romans_brutii, carthage, thrace, greek_cities
The same as above for AS - Ptolemaioi are so strong that they really need to leave others to develop and wait to be attacked at the first place - AI expansion on ALX.exe is really much faster (and if we count the 'AS share' boost Egypt has - we are screwed:wall: ).. So - In my tests they ALWEYS RULE WITH THESE SETTINGS! It's just they have more probs if one, let us say Pontos Is developed all the way to Byzant (which would only be a dream if he could be attacked by AS and Egypt in the first place) - then Pontos will give up a hell of a resistance before it goes down! This is the same in cases ot any other faction that ARE NO MATCH to Egypt after he takes Anitoh and Babylon! - Think about this
; ---------------------------------------------------------
; ######### seleucide - SPQR (Romani) #########
; ---------------------------------------------------------
faction seleucid, balanced caesar
ai_do_not_attack_faction egypt
This will allow Carthage to make the first move and also it will disable Romanoi to expand more quckly (and If we count that Carthage wont attack Spain and will focus on Italy and North Africa - never on Egypt) we have then, one nice struggle for Italy!
The only vice versa ''ai_do_not_attack_faction'' are in cases of AS-Pontos and Armenia-AS, this is really nice in the game - because AS will not spend time and money destroying those two - but will focus on Egypt 'ONLY' and even then Aegypt will win - but much much later in the game :shrug:
For me - this is close to some (not perfect) but very rational and nice result.
2. Giving this trait to older generals is fine:san_grin:
3. C_script should be moded much, I suggest to make Armenian FMember (if AI) much closer to Kotais and with the army that will allow him to take it from the start - that way we enable Armenia to expand more!
4. What can we do about Win_conditions? Konny made some progress there.
5. I know the army composition only for Hellenes and Stepe (from what I know form EB descriptions and some Historic notes fo battles! - Did you know that Pyrros had more quality Makedonians in his Army then Gonatas after he took Pella!).
6. OK ! :boxing:
7. I am for fixing Elephant's and other we find that have to be 'tweaked'. But You should work on that more! I am 90% postitve that HPoints for Phalanx are one of the main reason's KH wins alot and fast! I made Barbarian phalanx have HP 1,1 - to top 1,2, And hellenic phalanxes as from 1,2 - 1,3 (medium) and only 1,4 for Silver Shields. I also made 1,2 and 1,3 For HArchers (1,3 for Heavy Stepe cavalry that have arrows).
I also think that solution for ADDING as GENERAL UNIT to the Largest STONE throwers in Hellenic world is one very nice solution! We know that those persons that guided the siege's (as In Alexanders campaigns and later Demetriases) were so important that most Siege assaults HAD to wait those engineirs to come !
8. Ok, I think GENGHIS for Sarmatia, Pahlava and Saka, and HENRY maybe for Pahlava :shrug:
In 2-3 days I expect you to give me your impresions of EDU, maybe EDB (where I tweaked some bonuses mostly for buildings that did not had any) and Campaign_script.txt ... So I can use it to set up the BETA download link in a week!
The main reason why KH is so successful is the fact that their own barracks are scattered everywhere and they don't have to build them from zero, not to mention the fact half the world rebels to their unjust cause. And after marians they also have perfect longpike phalanx unit with very wide AOR and ruthlessly use it in large quantities ;-)
I sympatize LGK idea to add fractional hitpoints to horse archers and even think to imply it to all horsies (light horse-archers and horse scirmishers 1.2 HP, medium horsies 1.4 HP, heavy horsies like hetanks/kinsmen/molossons 1.6 HP, catanks 1.8 HP) but I'm compeletely against adding fractional hitpoints to infantry. Had countless autocalcs of infantry battles recently, everything is fine.
Siege engines were something absolutely uniqe in ancient world, more rare than elephants. Spawning them the way you suggest it will turn EB in vanilla.
If we want to make some serious balance (or somewhat 'some' balance) I suggest that ALL Heavy cavalry should be stronger +30% in and Medium and Lite +15% in EDU. This way - It is very unbalanced as EB team made cavalry - but adding HPoints to all cavalry is too much! Only HArchers need balance in ''Autocalc'' (I can even say that lancers and heavy cavalry are more powerfull in auto-resolve than in open battle:wall: )Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniMe
Hit Point's to infantry are only needed for Phalanx - and only because I (and you I guess) can use 3-4 phalanx units to KILL 10-12 (I had made it work for Up to 16 !) non-phalanx infantry (if you angle them right) !
I too Had countless autocalcs of infantry battles before I figured this out, I even tested by playing with Macedon (verses KH) and Epeiros (verses Romanoi) - nothing was fine! I was loosing half of my army or the battle even
If I had WHOLE army of Phalanx against Romans of pure Hoplites (not to mention Spartans and Classic's - they beat the hell out of Elite phalanx and not to say some medium) -
So you see, I tought for 4 years the vanilla got it right (in this case EB) - but then I saw that chariot's are not right with HP, then Elephant's, then HArchers and Then After numbers of test's in EB (where KH has almost no phalanx - unlike RTW vanilla) I hav noticed that Autocalc's are ALWAYS on the SIDE of KH - NO matter when - Makedno's CAN't Take one Single KH city :no: -- Then I noticed that full stacks of hoplites are taking Pella that had 8 phalanx (4 SShields) and Gonatas! The same story is for Epeiros!
Epeiros can NEVER win over KH (at least I never SAW - EVER that Epeiros or Makedonia wins over KH in A SINGLE region! - that is only the case in Greece in the game * that kind of unbalance can only be seen in Syria:shrug: )
Do I really need to post pictures ?? That would mean I will have to loose some couple of hours on this, .. Is this so hard to belive? That phalanx is underpowered against 'non-phalanx' infantry?? Just imagine the situation you have to fight (as I had) against 6 rebel hoplites near Epeiros and you only have 3 phalanx i to use! If you go on open battle - you can't loose! But if you go Autocalc on Medium - you can never WIN! I urge you to think a bit - that is a common issue if you play 'phalanx' factions as I do :laugh4:
No! You did not understand!:curtain: - I want to make 'general_unit' for the LAST level of siege (that means for Royal Barracks 'big' siege equipment) and IF there is Academy in the town (or level 2 of it) - Plus I would make those siege 2-3 turns to built (And Siege engines were rare but only Genius Siege enginery were unique - Like Diades of Pella that made Heliopolis while besigeing Rhodos! .. Also, use of Stone Thrower's without a 'Character' that only knew how to make those tools is even worse! - belive me that is one very cool thing! )..We can make it cost even more! But, you see, as I have read about it - EB team made siege that expensive because they counted that 'You have to pay for some famous enginery' - but there is no engineir!?:no:Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniMe
So I suggest only 'general_unit' for the LAST level of siege in the Hellenic world or wider if you please :shrug:
note... pretty please? ~:mecry:
Quite the opposite - my opinion is that EB cavalry behaves very good in battles but sucks in autocalcs. Perhaps you need to get used to EB cavalry yet?Quote:
Originally Posted by Maksimus
now finally we got to something - you think that one unit of medium longpike phalanx should be able to beat two units of hoplites.Quote:
Hit Point's to infantry are only needed for Phalanx - and only because I (and you I guess) can use 3-4 phalanx units to KILL 10-12 (I had made it work for Up to 16 !) non-phalanx infantry (if you angle them right) !
I too Had countless autocalcs of infantry battles before I figured this out, I even tested by playing with Macedon (verses KH) and Epeiros (verses Romanoi) - nothing was fine! I was loosing half of my army or the battle even
If I had WHOLE army of Phalanx against Romans of pure Hoplites (not to mention Spartans and Classic's - they beat the hell out of Elite phalanx and not to say some medium) -
So you see, I tought for 4 years the vanilla got it right (in this case EB) - but then I saw that chariot's are not right with HP, then Elephant's, then HArchers and Then After numbers of test's in EB (where KH has almost no phalanx - unlike RTW vanilla) I hav noticed that Autocalc's are ALWAYS on the SIDE of KH - NO matter when - Makedno's CAN't Take one Single KH city :no: -- Then I noticed that full stacks of hoplites are taking Pella that had 8 phalanx (4 SShields) and Gonatas! The same story is for Epeiros!
Epeiros can NEVER win over KH (at least I never SAW - EVER that Epeiros or Makedonia wins over KH in A SINGLE region! - that is only the case in Greece in the game * that kind of unbalance can only be seen in Syria:shrug: )
Do I really need to post pictures ?? That would mean I will have to loose some couple of hours on this, .. Is this so hard to belive? That phalanx is underpowered against 'non-phalanx' infantry?? Just imagine the situation you have to fight (as I had) against 6 rebel hoplites near Epeiros and you only have 3 phalanx i to use! If you go on open battle - you can't loose! But if you go Autocalc on Medium - you can never WIN! I urge you to think a bit - that is a common issue if you play 'phalanx' factions as I do :laugh4:
well, I'm afraid that we will never agree with you on this, cause methinx that
one unit of medium longpike phalanx should be able to deal with only one units of hoplites and be smacked by two units of hoplites.
And if you have difficulties in your campaign by trying to deal with 10 units of medium infantry with your five phalanx... well, may be it is not the game EDU that is unbalansed but your approach is wrong and you need more patiense?
and - FULL stacks of hoplites of course should take cities with only eight units against them. Medium phalanx sucks against hoplites on the walls.
and - Makedon does successfully takes some of KH cityes. I've seen them doing it.
Ok then, agree with you on this.Quote:
No! You did not understand!:curtain: - I want to make 'general_unit' for the LAST level of siege (that means for Royal Barracks 'big' siege equipment) and IF there is Academy in the town (or level 2 of it) - Plus I would make those siege 2-3 turns to built (And Siege engines were rare but only Genius Siege enginery were unique - Like Diades of Pella that made Heliopolis while besigeing Rhodos! .. Also, use of Stone Thrower's without a 'Character' that only knew how to make those tools is even worse! - belive me that is one very cool thing! )..We can make it cost even more! But, you see, as I have read about it - EB team made siege that expensive because they counted that 'You have to pay for some famous enginery' - but there is no engineir!?:no:
So I suggest only 'general_unit' for the LAST level of siege in the Hellenic world or wider if you please :shrug:
If you are so sure that cavalry in EB is greatly underpowered in autocalc's.. then OK :shrug: I never use much cavalry in EB because it is greatly underpowerd in open battle by the opinions of many - but ok.. maybe that is - maybe right - but EB vanilla make's cavalry with little startegic function on the battlefield (like, you can't really use cavalry as Makedonian's used them in battles - like one separated 'family' on the battlefield - one that can break non-phalanx infantry (in EB that is only a gream - my Hetairoi can't win in a single charge even if the charge at the back of a non phalanx enemy infantry that is fighting my phalanx on Hard difficulty! - and if they win - the loose 30-50% of all unts! - THAT would mean that in EVERY battle 30-50% of nobles would DIE - NO .. :no: that was not the case)..Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniMe
MiniMe - if you followed my 'links' to 'MY' campaigns - you could see that I don't have problem's in wining and that I have all the patiense in South East Europe there can be.. SO, if you haven't followed those links I will post a part of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniMe
I have destroyed Romanoi with EPEIROS on VH/VH in 269 bc (PLUS I DID not turn the EBBS on once I think ) and that was on EB 10 - PURE VANILLA
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
And I only made it because I had some phalanx! Only because Phalanx are of much, much, much more use on the open battle than ANY other infantry..
And I am not saying that ONE phalanx can beat TWO unit's of hoplites..
I am saying that '' I '' and ANYONE that KNOW's how to use phalanx need's only 4 (or 6 top's) phalanx to kill as much as 16 hoplites units that are led by the AI (the poin is - you angle them right !) .. Like Alexnader did..?? He often defended his phalanx flank's with Phalanx 'and' some infantry and cavalry..
So, you don't know how to use and win with 6 phalanx against 16 or 18 hoplites?? - you don't konw the trick? It's even better if you have 6 phalanx and 1 or 2 horse units..
Just don't tell me that I am the first one that told this to you ? :shrug:
Oh, that was MY bad - I ment full stack as 'full row' you know - the 'upper row' that is about 10 hopltes I think + KH general.. But Mak's had 8 phalanx and Gonatas (some were elite!) .. And if you are to defend that town - you will only need 6 phalanx to win.. (counting they don't take the town square :san_grin: )Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniMe
And, dont misunderstand me - I am ready to give up all My ideas just for the team work.. really :yes:
But most of what this is about would not go into ALEM :no: - it would go into EAEM .. and only if Lgk say's - ok.. I don't pretend to be alone here :laugh4:
I know how to beat 12 hoplites with 6 phalanx ;-)
I consider situation when you can beat 18 hoplites with 6 phalanx, imbalansed. Phalanx are good unit but not supermen. I don't like superunits.
I consider your current attitude toward longpike units very biased upon your last "phalanx" campaign.
Let's see if you would change it after playing campaign of hoplites or principes against phalanx ;-)
And: EB EDU stats are for battles on Medium. I suggest you try it.
I've done RTR battles on VH. Piece of cake. This is not RTR, this stats system is totally different. Theirs is for VH/H. This is for M. Please, stop judging it before playing it the way it is supposed to be played :yes:
FROM: Re: "Civilized" factions conquering the steppe - for MiniMe
Carthage will spread to Italy from Sicily when we add ''ai_do_not_attack'' for Carthage to Iberia and Rome to Carthage!
Logic in this argument is: Carthage now focuses on Sicily and North Africa mostly - they rarely fight against rebels in Spain - but if they don't have ''ai_do_not_attack'' limitations to Spain - they will group more there and will spend more money in Spain. But we need Carthage in Sicily where we want to see more Carthage vs Romans combat (especialy after they go into 'mainland' of Italy - you saw they are at the Roman door's)
If one thext is hard for you to read - you could just say so.. I really like this "Palatino Linotype" - do you really have a problem with that font and various colours I use? :shrug:
See, this was made according to ''ai_do_not_attack'' faction's. Rome set not to attack Carthage first - so he wait's Carthage to attack him first ! - Only then he fight's back! -
AND Carthage is set ''ai_do_not_attack'' Spain - in this test Carthage was attacked BY IBERIA and ONLY then Carthage took some Iberian TOWNS and now will probably take Spain! I don't know what comes next because I quited testing after Egypt came in EUROPE and destroyed AS!
Logic here is that Roman's will not 'destroy' Carthage in Sicily and Italy on sight! Think about it really.. My opinion to is that Carthage ways of expansion are fine - and they will only prolong the Iberia faction Life (which should remain alive as others until 200bc) - it there is no ''ai_do_not_attack'' limitation's for Spain - Cartahge would take all of Spain much faster (and we want faction's to be alive more:shrug: )
One very good thing with ''ai_do_not_attack'' option is that this option manly makes the game and small faction's last more - for example until those 'small' faction's destroy themselfs (by attacking a bigger faction that was untill that time ''ai_do_not_attack''-forced to keep the same small faction alive)..
In the case of AS/Pontos/Armenia ''ai_do_not_attack'' option is maybe the only thing that will keep them alive untill 200-150bc.. :shrug:
And MiniMe - I will post that in 2 day's top's with proofs of HP idea for phalanx and HArchers (but I say, this was tested on one Serbian forum 2 years ago - as a vanilla RTW tweak - it worked nice - it's just that at that time I did not belive it like you don't belive it now:wall: )
Key word in that part of my post was word "mutual". I want to see them both decline in the midgame not one of them rise to the state of freakin ancient USSR.
I think it can really be done by manipulating with ''ai_do_not_attack'' option, very little script and more army for AS in Syria - like those ''ai_do_not_attack'' option I have mentioned and explained above - that way AS will only fight Egypt (but we can make AS much stronger in Syria at the start) and Baktria will eventually go and take East part of AS Empire..
Well, if everyone would happily follow this option I would be forced to leave this forum course it will be impossible to read it
Sorry, do you mind If I use 'Palatino' and only black and blue?
Can we compromise друже :san_wink:
Ok I got you now!:laugh4: ... so you know as I do and as most of the player's that 6 phalanx (if angled well) can beat atleast - 12 (and ok.. if you have some elite you can take even 20 - I have done it really - but against AI - not human) ... But you know that WE can't win ever if we use autoclac - like 6 to 12 - never :no:Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniMe
That is the point! - I suggest that we balance other (mostly cavalry Archery unit's) to even 1,6 HP.. but Barbarina phalanx could have (as I made it) 1,1 , native Hellenic phalanx 1,2 and medium and some elite phalanx 1,3 hp (by my opinion only SShields should have 1,4 hp of all infantry - like Celt's are already strong as in vanilla...)
I played Baktria against AS and I only had Cavalry - the same goes for Armenia.. I know how it is to play against phalanx - but it is much easier if you have open battles - then the phalanxes are 'all around' so you can easily flank them..
But becasue of that - autocalcs must be workinga as if the Human would play - That is the main reason we are going to change HArchers to + hp
Oh... and yes -- :wall:
I will use Medium from now on.. but you still saw the point - phalanx use is great even on VH/VH .. now imagine medium?
Do you know we have premission to use RTR art - I suggest more diversity of officers and more and more unit's in the future.. * What do you think??! :boxing:
I suggest you to take a look at "factions progress" tread. You'll see that Carthies in midgame and especially in lategame are always successful. I'm not worried about them at all! What I want is fair chances for AI-guided Romans. What I dream of is AI-Romans invasion of Africa
Thank you very much =)Quote:
Originally Posted by Maksimus
We can and we should, друже :san_wink:Quote:
Can we compromise друже :san_wink:
And if you think I moan too much... well, someone has to be critic when the rest is so creative and optimistic ~D
I'm pretty happy with EB units actually and while RTR units are also good looking, their "shining" style doesn't match EB calm "pastel" styleQuote:
Originally Posted by Maksimus
Lets talk about it after we deal with immediate concerns, Ok?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniMe
I was thinking about that for quite some time now.. And I suggest we make it na EVENT.. like at some year - if Roman's still have Rome - we spawn one or two full stack's of Roman army in Tunis and leave it be - That is also my tought for Hanibal in Italy..
Can this be done?
I hope we can make it work.. this way most of ancient history has no sence If Rome does not go into Africa..:shrug:
WOW! Now that's an Idea!
Lets call it "Scipio invasion project"
Conditions:
1. Rome at war with Carthage
2. Rome controls upper half of Italy
3. Carthage sieges rome towns in Italy
then
we create couple of good roman stacks with good generals exactly near the walls of Carthage and Utica
...
hmmm...
this sounds promising...
We should waith to hear Lgk's and Konny's comment's on this and then we could start to gain pace .. ( I am afraid Lgk wont like the ''ai_dont...'' option and such an extensive use of it in my proposal... But I just can see how do we 'script manipulate' more this way .. do we could spawn and spawn more and more armies - but that should be in cases of 'Scipio Project' not in Diadokhoi war's :wall:)
I must :Zzzz: now, I had a hard day and one exam yesterday.. one that made my brain 1% bigger :laugh4: .. It was really hard :whip:
Festina lente
A lot of stuff. Let's sort
Scripted Roman invasion in Africa would be an absolute no for me. Please think it over in gameplay. When both factions are controlled by the AI one of the three things will happen:
1. Both factions will change their homelands with the Africans controlling Italy and the Italians controlling Africa. or
2. The Romans wouldn't do anything and just stand there, like Antigonos next to Athens or the Greek army on Crete. or
3. The Romans will try to reach their homelands. If they have some ships left they might use them, but most likely they'll use the landroute through Egypt, Syria, Asia Minor, Thrakia and Illyria; becoming pinned or looped some on the way.
None of the above I am eager to see in a campaign. What would never happen is the Karthees sending ships to Italy to bring their army home.
ai_not_attack should be strictly limited to factions that have in the moment better to do than going on safari elsewhere. That would be AS should be forbidden to attack Pontos, Armenia and Baktria (and may be the rebells too). They should concentrate on the Ptolemaians. The three Greek factions should be forbidden to attack the rebells as long as the other two are active in the region.
That should prevent AS to start wars with everyone around while Egypt is eating up her lands, and it should prevent Makedonia and Epeiros from wasting their armies on the Balkans when the Greeks are gathering strong armies on the Theassalian border.
That would help those factions that always lose their war because of AI strategical stupidity. Everyone else should be allowed to do what ever the AI likes.
Changes to the unit stats would be no for me in most of the cases too. Maksimus, I can't see why the EB cavalry is underpowered. May be you are using it the wrong way or you have false ideas of what cavalry was able to do.
Alexander did not crush full enemy armies with just cavalry. At Issos he routed archers with Hetairoi and by this opened a gap in the enemy line through which his infantry could attack the enemy flank. At Gaugamela his horsemen had to fight on their own for just a short time until the infantry appeared on the scene and caused the enemy wing to rout. And this was always fought against light Persian forces not Phalanxis. That is nothing the EB cavalry can't do either.
On the other hand, discussing this with you (and this is not the first time) is pointless as long as you insit on playing on anything but the recommended M battle difficulty. Cavalry is very fragile in EB and giving the enemy extra points in defense and attack by difficulty level might make them useless.
I don't think that there is a Hoplites-Phalanx problem that makes KH always win the war in Greece. Certainly a human player can win with 6 units of Phalanx against 12 units of AI Hoplites without much problems. Just line them up in a long line on flat ground and the AI will throw its Hoplites one by one frontal against this wall. The same battle fought against a human player will certainly result in a crushing defeat for the Phalanx.
And don't forget that the Makedonia AI raises large numbers of Hoplites itself. I would say that about half of the "Phalanx-faction's" armies' heavy infantry are made up of Hoplitai Haploi for the first part of the game.
The reason why KH always wins in Greece is the strategic situation: KH can't do other than go for Makedonia, while the Maks are also under attack by Epeiros and do waste armies for attacking Serdike, Tylis and the like villages on the Balkans. Epeiros isn't doing so much at all. Most of the time they have full stacks sitting around the Adriatic coast, make occasionly raids on Pella and conquer Illyrian villages from time to time.
Just check the map for "Herioc Victory" markers of AI battles. I find them in Greece more often memoring a Makedonian victory than a Greek one, even though Greece is evidently winning the war.
Yep. The last version seems to be working very fine:Quote:
4. What can we do about Win_conditions? Konny made some progress there.
Rome didn't do so anything in the beginning, but now they have taken Segesta and Taras and are repeatingly attacking Rhegion.
Epeiros and Makedonia are keeping out of the Balkans (but KH is still winning).
Ptolemaioi basicly keeps away from the African rebell towns but focuses on AS (save for that stupid little army from Kyrene that thought it a good idea to attack me in Leptis). AS has not declared war on anybody.
Pontos went West, took Nikaia, Byzantion and now Tylis and is expanding along the Black Sea coast.
Baktria and Parthia destroyed Saka, but Baktria lost all former Saka provinces to rebellion short thereafter. Parthia has meanwhile attacked AS.
They can. I didn't know before but it is possible for the rebells to raise units, even though it is only doing so on rare occasions. Just check the towns in which all units have a chevron or two at the start, after some ten years you'll see new units without experince popping up in some of these towns.Quote:
AI should be able to train even as 'SLAVE' ! - VERY IMPORTANT !
First of all, I want to add that most of 'Extensive' changes will probably go into EAEM (so don't need to argue much:laugh4: )
We should test it dearly! I understand what strange things happen I saw that alot - But I am for it to be tested - it's just that we need a way to be sure Roman's will what you say they will.. I know about Crete - but We should move that Greek Army to AsiaMinor or Sparta.Quote:
Originally Posted by konny
I used ''ai_not_attack'' option only in the scope of EB vanilla default set of wars.. So I did not change the War-conditions so one can attack ONLY one faction - like AS to attack only Egypt.. But it can be done easily - BUT we should not set faction's NOT attack rebels - because they will never attack them that way - ever :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by konny
Also KH was never-ever that strong as in EB vanilla (KH always wins) So might have to think about
---KH NOT attacking Makedonia first --- that will slow the KH expansion - Think about that it is one very nice solution to KH AI expansion !
That could also be done for Egypt verses AS !
At that time Makedonia and Epeiros 'made' the rules - so KH IS VERY owerpowered - if you Human does not play as Makedonia - then Makedonia should be strong enough to win in Greece - KH should never win by my opinion .. :no:
Most of units in EB 'can' be tweaked and will be for Extensive mod - I can only say that EB team are made up of people like us - So you should know that some VERY unbalanced unit's from EB 10 are going to be tweaked for EB 11 - so most of your remarks that EB is well balanced depends on EB version rather than on some stable 'ethic' (the best word I can figure). We know that they will try with HP for HArchers, that they are going to balance elephant's and maybe some more missle cavalry.. and not to say that Gaestae will be major redone!Quote:
Originally Posted by konny
Most of your comment's on unit stats are based on judgement that ''EB vanilla is ok with EDU balance'' - but it is most likely juste barely OK so EAEM with deal with it.
Again, most of all of that will be in EAEM - so you don't need to worry - MiniMe and I made debates that are not for ALEM - the version we all support, so If you are sceptical about cavalry, phalanxes and HArchers - I can't
Cavalry is just barely more stronger on Medium - yes! I play on Medium for some time now :san_grin:Quote:
Originally Posted by konny
There is a Hoplites-Phalanx problem and it it obvious but I don't suggest to add HP 2 or 3 for Phalanx - but just to 1,1 - 1,3 - that is not a big deal - I have already explained that hoplites loose always agains 'human' phalanx and we tend to make AI autocalcs close to HUMAN game - not AI..Quote:
Originally Posted by konny
That will be changed with some tweaks as for example ''Caesar'' troops personality that is much better than ''Stalin'' for Makedonia,Quote:
Originally Posted by konny
That does not change the fact phalanx is very underpowered in autocals against non-phalanx infantry (but that does not mean we will add 3 HP for phalanx elite but only 1,3 - that just slightly adds to phalanx)
KH should NEVER win in Greece - the same is for Egypt in Syria..Quote:
Originally Posted by konny
And most of win onditions loose importance with ''ai_...'' options - they are far more easy to use and manipulate..
Ok, I will waith some more comments of your's - MiniMe's and Lgk's so we can make join agreement!
And marry Christmas Konny ! :san_wink: