Gay Parenting

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Originally Posted by ajaxfetish

And if you wanted to dredge up some comparable American data, then you might have a point to make.

Ajax

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Lack of data can at times prove a point. Re-read what I wrote, I do not think I made any unsupported claims.

Speaking of something else entirely, were you aware that North Korea has no gay people?

Besides, why am I in the fire line here? Why do I have to come up with data? Why do I have to prove a point?

Louis wrote:

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It shows that Americans are always more open, friendly, and moral than most everybody else. Yes, moral. It is the European who forever fails to understand that the American struggles to live life right, to do good, to do what is right. Unlike the European. Whose morality is mostly a thin veneer, a social necessity, kept up out of fear for being caught, which is never far away from being cast away when opportunity presents itself.

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I then pointed at some very very obvious signs of this not being fully correct (gay marriage being allowed and so on). He then offered a report of gay situation in Sweden - bashing it - without offering comparable data.

Remind me as to why I am the one being accused and have to come up with the facts?

PS: My only opening point was that a show like the one posted would not have been aired here, as we have another political and cultural situation. Here it would be politically correct to tell the waitress off, thus not showing any type of back bone. Obviously in the States this issue is not as clear, or the show would not have been made in the first place. Get my point?

And GAH why am I defending myself against this idiocy.

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Originally Posted by Shibumi

PS: My only opening point was that a show like the one posted would not have been aired here, as we have another political and cultural situation.

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Maybe such a show should be aired, as there is obviously still a major problem with homophobia in Sweden.

This whole exercise illustrates an important point - changing laws is much easier than changing minds. As was demonstrated in this thread, many people from nations that have passed pro-gay legislation seem to delude themselves into believing that their country has moved passed widespread anti-gay hatred and abuse. This is not so, especially among the lower classes. Gay people are then left in a precarious situation - subject to widespread low level discrimination but without any easily identifiable political grievances, allowing the media and pressure groups to ignore the problems.

Changing attitudes about gay people cannot be done in state capitals - it must be done at home, in schools, and in diners like the one in the video. It is great that gay people can marry in Sweden, but the fact that over half of them are subject to abuse is shameful. Open minded people in countries like Sweden or states like Massachusetts that have passed pro-gay legislation cannot wash their hands of the issue and abandon them to the wolves.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

Maybe such a show should be aired, as there is obviously still a major problem with homophobia in Sweden.

This whole exercise illustrates an important point - changing laws is much easier than changing minds. As was demonstrated in this thread, many people from nations that have passed pro-gay legislation seem to delude themselves into believing that their country has moved passed widespread anti-gay hatred and abuse. This is not so, especially among the lower classes. Gay people are then left in a precarious situation - subject to widespread low level discrimination but without any easily identifiable political grievances, allowing the media and pressure groups to ignore the problems.

Changing attitudes about gay people cannot be done in state capitals - it must be done at home, in schools, and in diners like the one in the video. It is great that gay people can marry in Sweden, but the fact that over half of them are subject to abuse is shameful. Open minded people in countries like Sweden or states like Massachusetts that have passed pro-gay legislation cannot wash their hands of the issue and abandon them to the wolves.

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I think I made a decision some time ago to not respond to your posts, as they seemed very ill founded and utterly without factual base. I just wrote that a show like that would be moot as the PC agenda is to stand up for homosexuals - as well as it being so utterly the mainstream. What you get from that is that such a show would be awesome.

The show would just not fly.

Let us be frank, the "gay issue" is a top 20 political question on the vote compass in the states, do you really think it would be in Sweden?

USA has a question if being gay is OK or not on the political compass.
Sweden do not have that question on the political compass.

Do we need to play dot to dot here to see what country comes off better?

Gay marriage is legal here.
It is not legal there (in some states).

Sweden has never had a don't ask don't tell policy.
USA has (until what, some months ago).

In Sweden you can be an openly gay priest.
In USA.. Actually I do not know - Are there any, do they do well?

Do not get me wrong, I am not saying Sweden is perfect, I am not saying we do not still have problems with it. However, our problems are less institutionalized, and from my point of view way less severe.

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Originally Posted by Shibumi

Louis wrote:

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It shows that Americans are always more open, friendly, and moral than most everybody else. Yes, moral. It is the European who forever fails to understand that the American struggles to live life right, to do good, to do what is right. Unlike the European. Whose morality is mostly a thin veneer, a social necessity, kept up out of fear for being caught, which is never far away from being cast away when opportunity presents itself.

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I then pointed at some very very obvious signs of this not being fully correct (gay marriage being allowed and so on).

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No. No, you didn't point out anything about it being incorrect. All you said was you did not get the point. Or rather, you did get it, but pretended not to get it to share that one must be garbling to state that America often struggles to do good:

I really did not get your point, can you summarize for stupid people like me?

I lost you at America being more open and friendly, and the points about America struggling to do good was just garbled. You might want to go into that with further detail.

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Just for good measure, I then shared some cold fact about Swedish 'friendliness' to gays. Apparantly, the findings of this report ('half of Swedish gays contemplate suicide, half have been victim of physical violence in just one year') which have been known for years took you by complete surprise:

I will venture as far as saying I honestly do not believe those numbers you stated, it is not the reality I see here. I am absolutely sure that Sweden at large have a rather open view towards homosexuality. A political party that would even bring that question up would be ridiculed and scorned.

Your only source seem to be some blog called "stop homophobia". Well done you. Got other sources?

As it turned out, my source was a very influential report by the National Swedish Health Institute, ordered by the Swedish government.

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He then offered a report of gay situation in Sweden - bashing it - without offering comparable data.

Remind me as to why I am the one being accused and have to come up with the facts?

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Are you kidding? :huh:

Not offering data? The data were right in the article, including a reference to the Swedish NHI report. Of course, far from bashing it, I used the report to make a point.
All you had to show in reply was a dismissive post questioning my source and stating your disbelief at the numbers. Then you got thoroughly pwned with the source itself, which turned out to be the most encompassing government ordered report about the status of gays on the planet.

I showed the facts, I came up with my numbers. Louis always has a source and Louis always gives his source to anybody who requests it. It is you who's throwing around assumptions abvout America, without as of yet having come up with any source whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by Shibumi

I think I made a decision some time ago to not respond to your posts, as they seemed very ill founded and utterly without factual base. I just wrote that a show like that would be moot as the PC agenda is to stand up for homosexuals - as well as it being so utterly the mainstream. What you get from that is that such a show would be awesome.

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You're so busy desperately trying to prove Sweden's superiority over the US that you completely missed my point.

You came into this thread with a very common European attitude, smugly insinuating that such a show would never make it in 'civilized' nations like Sweden because such a situation (gay harassment) would never occur there. You backed that assertion up with Sweden's pro-gay legislation, the absence of a Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy in Sweden's military, and your own anecdotal observations.

My point is that while it is wonderful that Sweden's political class is ahead of America's, their accomplishments have obviously created a blind spot in many people's opinion on the issue. The studies show that in fact such a setup would be relevant in Sweden, as a majority of Swedish gay people are still subjected to abuse based on their sexual orientation each year.

I'm not attacking you or Sweden, and I'm certainly not saying the US is any better. I'm only saying that you should not assume that just because gay marriage is legalized in Sweden that widespread anti-gay abuse could not occur in your country. The studies show that it does, and at alarming rates. :shame:

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Originally Posted by Shibumi

In Sweden gay people can get married.
We do not have a "don't ask don't tell" policy in the army.
Go around in the capital and you will see the Gay Banner proudly raised at a lot of places.

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Centurion already rubbished this, but I might as well do so again.

1) In America, same-sex marriage has been legal in several states since 2004. In Sweden, it became legal years later, in 2009. With the obvious note that America is a federal state, Sweden a centrally governed one. The legal status of same-sex marriage is as varied between US states as between European states.
2) The US does not have a DATT policy in the army. It used to have one. But not anymore, in the current post-homophobic climate.
3) I don't know about the gay scene in Washington DC. Not among the more prominent ones, I think. America being a federal state, other cities perform the function that a capital in a centralised or small country performs, such as cultural center or gay capital. There is a big difference between states and cities. San Francisco, Portland, Seattle, New York - they don't come any more liberal in Europe, or anywhere else for that matter.

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Also, New York's Village People were already rockin' the US charts way back when Sweden was still sterilising people for being homosexual. :cowboy: :builder2: :indian_chief: :helmet: :policeman: :biker:

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The Village People made me feel creative. Here's an artist's impression of the Three Gayketeers, the world's next musical sensation:

:beatnik2: :sweetheart: :sombrero: :sweetheart: :afro:

It's me (Le Bobo), Strike (El Chicano) and Panzer (Soul Man). I suspect one of them to be homosexual for real and IT IS NOT ME.

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Originally Posted by Shibumi

Louis, the question runs deeper than one report. And then there is of course the fact that you can not really accuse Sweden of being worse without similar data from the USA.

I read the relevant parts of the report now, and violence seem more spread than I thought. Most of the violence though has been pushes and stuff (not that that is much good either). The Gay Organization in Sweden had a huge drive some years ago to raise the awareness, urging their members to report any kind of abuse. I think that more or less sky rocketed the statistics.

Had a talk with an American friend who is gay, and he claim that the situation for gays are way worse in the states. Not evidence as such, I know, but at least here the gays do not have much/any administrative obstacles.

I am not saying Sweden is perfect when it comes to this issue, but I do claim that it is better here. And again, if you want to compare you really have to show the statistics from both involved parties, not just the one.

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In general, I have little doubt Sweden is more tolerant of gays than America.

I protested what I thought was unfait criticism over a video. The Texas video to me does not show a backwards place, full of petty religious-conservative ignorants. To me it showed something entirely else: that (again) America has managed to reinvent itself. If, of all places, in Texas people will openly stand up for a homosexual then indeed somthing has changed.

It has been my subjective view that homophobia is well past its heyday of about a decade ago, the first few years of past decade. My spidey sense about America being the world's greatest since Alexis, that Gallup poll hidden in PJ's post provided a nice confirmation of my subjective impression:

The [Tennessee] bill, which was approved 19-11, passed the same day as Gallup released a poll revealing that American attitudes towards homosexuality are changing.

For the first time in Gallup polling history, the majority of Americans—53% believe same-sex marriage should be legal.

A majority is now in favour of same-sex marriage. This is the more important realisation about America. A fierce debate has been waged, is still raging, with many pro and many con. But the direction ios clearly towards openness, towards acceptance, towards tolerance.

Wow, we can not just make one post, can we?

I will summarize.

1. This debate did not start with ME saying Sweden is great - it started with you saying:

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It shows that Americans are always more open, friendly, and moral than most everybody else. Yes, moral. It is the European who forever fails to understand that the American struggles to live life right, to do good, to do what is right. Unlike the European. Whose morality is mostly a thin veneer, a social necessity, kept up out of fear for being caught, which is never far away from being cast away when opportunity presents itself.

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Just like in the God debate, the responsibility of facts on the table is on your side.

2. You then went on to show statistics of Sweden (horrid one I might add). However, you completely forgot that you can not compare two countries without having the same data for both. Kind of on an intellectual level of:
Shibumi: My apple is better than yours from what I can tell from the apple handbook.
Louis: No my apple is better - see - here I have a report showing your apple has flaws.
Shibumi: Can I see a report on your apple?
Louis: Uhm.. no..
Shibumi: ...
louis: WIN!

Quite obviously, I do not applaud your logic here.

3. Ajaxfetish for some reason thought I had made the initial claim that Sweden was the best. But no, as should be rather evident I have just argued against your initial post - go back to "1" to see it again. I have not said Sweden is perfect, nor do I think it is. I do think it is a lot of better when it comes to this though.

4. Your, as you put it, "influential" report showed that a gay couple could walk hand in hand for a year without being harassed. Cred to Sweden! Did it show it was all perfect - nope. But you can not use that report to say Sweden is worse than the US, when in fact Sweden is a front runner in gay rights. Granted, we have lots left to do - but with that said we should take some pride in having done a better job than most, not to say anyone else.

You claim that you show the facts - then go on. Make a comparative analysis between the data of Sweden and the US when it comes to homosexuality. So far you have only made an ill advised claim of USA being

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more open, friendly, and moral than most everybody else

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When I countered it saying it is probably better here - you went on some huge rant - bashing Sweden without showing equal data for the states.

Beginning your last post with saying you have little doubt Sweden in general is more tolerant? So what exactly are you fighting at here, Don Quijote?

I am not at all interested in Sweden vs the US. :zzz:

Nobody is, I think. Certainly, it is not the point in any of my posts, apart from the odd side-remark or two, for example that Village People bit or the superiority of God's own country, Texas, over Sweden. But in essence, no comparison of the status of homosexual emancipation would either support or contradict anything I've written. It is completely besides the point. :shrug:


What I am arguing is mistaken smugness and opinions about both America and Sweden. Whereas I might discuss both countries, it is not from a comparative perspective, which I consider neither interesting nor pertinent. No more than, say, a discussion about the financial crisis is made interesting by debating which country may happen to have two percent points less economic contraction.


As for you rubbishing my source: uh-uh. Nope. It is only the most encompassing report ever about the health and wellbeing of gays in Sweden. It was ordered by the Swedish government, it is by the Swedish National Institute of Public Health, a state agency under the Ministry of Health and Social Affairs. This report is what the Swedish government bases its policy on. :yes:

I went to a gay pride festival this past weekend at my uni. Was good fun.

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Originally Posted by Shibumi

1. This debate did not start with ME saying Sweden is great - it started with you saying:

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Actually, it started with post #395.

It are islamic immigrants that make life hell for Swedish gays, the Swedish themselves are very nice people, hate just isn't in their way they are too nice for that; the avarage native Swede has zero problem with homosexuals. Sweden is a classical victim of the assumption that all cultures are equal, but even in Sweden people are starting to recognise the ldiocy of multiculturalism despite the propaganda they are fed 24/7

I wish I was gay

Then I could be as fabulous as I want to be