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Karl Zirn:
I was really not in favour of a committee to question the Kaiser's succession. But is this not a conflict for you Hans? To be a member of the committee who has direct interest in the outcome. If so, then the Kaiser should also be on this committee to protect his interest. Is Duke Scherer aware of your actions? I would like to hear it officially from him that you are his representative.
There shall be no call of a council till this matter is clearly resolved.
Matthias strokes his beard and thinks.
It would seem to me that one cannot be presenting evidence to the Council and be on the Council at the same time. We all know who would make a claim for the Throne if Siegfried is unseated, Count Hans, and by being on the Council, it would make your own ascension have questionable legitimacy. Meaning, of course, we'd have to invoke CA 11.1 once again.
If Duke Scherer is unavailable, perhaps your brother Elberhard should serve as the representative of Swabia? Or perhaps you would prefer. . .
Matthias's mouth quirks upward in a wry grin.
. . .Wolfgang.
*Lothar regards his brother, the Chancellor, with a glare.*
Surely Count Hans' evidence will be judged fairly, whether he represents Swabia or not. If his proof is legitimate, all will recognize it and rule accordingly. If his proof is false, then it will similarly be recognized and the Council will act as it should. We already know that Duke Scherer supports his vassal's claims, so what harm can come from allowing Hans to sit on the Council? Could it be that you are... afraid... that he may present legitimate evidence?
Hans is not part of the Council.
If he has anything to present he can do it here for the Dukes and King to take with them and deliberation on in the Council.
Matthias meets Lothar's glare with one of his own. Fingering the seal of his office, the wry smile returns to his face.
Does it bother anyone that it seems that there is only going to be one actual Duke at the "Duke's" council? Instead it will be a "3 Stewards, a King, and a Duke" council. It sounds too much like a title to a child's fable...
When people were voting on CA 11.1, did they know that this would end up being a "Stewards Council"? Do we want our Stewards choosing our Kaiser? Especially when one of our Stewards thinks he is the Kaiser? Furthermore, is that Steward officially a Steward? With all due respect Count Hans, but if you could point out in the Diet transcript where Duke Scherer proclaimed you Steward, I will withdraw that part of my objection. Otherwise, this becomes "2 Stewards, A King, A Count who wants to be Kaiser, and a Duke" council.
If Count Hans is allowed to be on a council, when he is not officially Steward, and present evidence that claims he is the Kaiser, and is then allowed to rule on whether he is the Kaiser, then I do not know how that can be seen as anything other than questionable.
Hans has been named Steward alright, just as I'm still the ruler of Franconia till my father announces his official return.
However according to CA 11.1:
Quote:
those not directly involved in the dispute shall be part of the council
I can confirm that there is one Steward, Ansehelm, involved as a replacement and specifically stated by his Duke to replace him.
I am not aware of Duke Scherer's nomination of Hans as Steward, if someone can point that out I would be grateful. Hans is not part of the council for the very wording Ansehelm stated, so Scherer needs to arrive or send word of his representative.
There are two Dukes, a King and one Steward involved as far as I know at this stage.
Muttering under his breath
God, I'm starting to sound like an real administrator now.
Pours over Diet transcripts
All I see is that Duke Scherer only said he will be gone a week. He never designated a second. And some of those days have already passed. Surely we can wait a few more until the Dukes come back. Something this serious should be decided by them unless they are to be absent for an extended length of time. Duke Gunther did vote so he is obviously around somewhere. If he needs a few more days to get back into the swing of things, then I am inclined to suggest that we wait. Otherwise, I am afraid that the results of the Council will seem "questionable" to some people and we will just have to do this all over again.
You have no say about this thing Jan.
As it is I'm Franconia's representative, but I will make sure Gunther gets every letter written, he is back, but since he has been gone for some years it will take some time to catch up for him.
Once he comes walking in here and says he resumes as Duke again he's back, untill that I will seat in the council.
Lords of Franconia,
Both the Steward and the Duke have made their opinions known.
We will be waiting.
Folding his arms scanning the Chamber Arnold leans back and whispers to Grom and Bane. They both leave the chamber immediately.
Well, seeing as I can help decide that a succession result by the Council is "questionable", then I do have a say. If this Council sits with anything other than Dukes, or their very clearly designated seconds, then I will declare any result from that Council to be questionable. If we want stability and unquestioned succession, then I urge everyone to wait for all 4 Dukes to be here. If a Duke is going to be gone for weeks or months, then I respectfully implore that Duke to send a letter back here clearly designating the person who will sit in for them.
It's not questionable Jan. The only Steward in the council has had his OWN Duke make his vote known AND specifically nominate him for any further discussions.
Plus, I'm not sure your in a position as one noble to call the result "questionable" until the results are in.
I understand your concerns Jan...but please have patiences.
I'm "ON" the case as it were.
Turning to a page
Drinks!!! Drinks for everyone...and some green tea for Chancellor Matthias.
I will have that drink and thank you for offering.
True, Ansehelm is the one person out of the three non-king/dukes that want to be on the council that actually has his Dukes backing to be his second. I guess I have two seperate issues then.
1.) While Ansehelm is Duke Gunther's second, I would feel more at ease if Duke Gunther could sit on the council. If were waiting anyways than it doesn't hurt to wait some more.
2.) I can not find any proof that Counts Lothar and Hans are even designated seconds. As such, I see no reason as to why they should sit on the council at all.
As for my position as one noble. It is true that I can not invoke the Council part of CA 11.1 myself. But, I can already tell you how I would vote if a certain situation were to come to pass. Count Hans and Count Lothar's declarations that they shall sit on the council made me nervous. Ansehelm sitting on the council does not make me nervous. Its just that if our Duke is already seen around these parts voting, then I am assuming he will be with us shortly. Its nothing against Ansehelm at all.
*Lothar raises an eyebrow.*
Me? Sit on the Council? Who ever suggested such a thing? My father is still Duke, he is still active, and he has not appointed me or anyone else as Steward of Bavaria. I would happily take up my father's seat on the Council to ensure that this matter was fairly adjudicated, but I have no authority to do that nor do I desire to. I trust that my father will do what is right; he has more wisdom and nobility than most in this Diet.
Then I was mistaken about that part of my analysis. You have my apologies and Duke Arnold has called for drinks. Care to have one with us?
I'm not going to go into details Jan, but your point one has been resolved.
Lothar, where is Elberhard?
We have our gentlemen's club invitation this evening...and by god I'm looking forward to it!!!
Alright, then I guess my only remaining issue is the one regarding Count Hans deciding on his own succession to Kaiser. But, as you said, others are on the case and I will just give moral support by drinking liberally. *grin*
*Lothar grins.*
I hear that royal bastard has become a bit obsessed with 'chivalry' during his time in the East. Perhaps he will have problems deciding whether to ride to the distress of the tavern wenches, or ride the wenches themselves.
Well, he is "the lewd" so hopefully he still has it figured out.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Christ on the Cross Lothar!! Are you serious man!!??Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCow
He's gone all "sunshine and flowers" on us has he...that mad wench Beatrice could change his mind I'm sure, she managed to suck that..
Bane re-enters the Chamber at that moment and whispers into the Dukes ear. With conern on his face Arnold turns back to the assembled Lords
Right then another round of drink for everyone!!!
My shout, it's out of the Ducal treasury...Matthais's reforms are having an immediate effect on Venice.
Oh yes, and another green tea for the Chancellor. And make sure it has one of those nice golden tea spoons and some sugar.
Looks at poll numbers while drinking
Count Lothar, I'm curious. Is there any reason why you have not yet voted on whether there should be a council? Why not get your opinion on the record? I mean, even Hummel voted.
The matter is more than decided whether I vote or not. I see no benefit from proclaiming my stance on the issue.
If you insist that I make my position clear, then I will say this: I support the man who is, by law, the rightful Kaiser.
Sets his drink down and looks astonished
No benefit? No benefit!?! Are you joking!?!
You work behind the scenes to engineer a semi-legal coup and you say there would be no benefit to stating your official position? This is unbelievable! Are you afraid to have others know your stance? Are you scared? Worried about what others may think of you? Timid at any possibility of conflict? Quivering because of the mere thought of peer pressure? Are you incapable of naming the man who you think is your rightful ruler? Any man would make his stance known, specific and public. Duke Gunther is still not fully caught up so he is exempt from that statement. But you, I never thought you to be
.....a coward my dear Count Lothar.
It is clear that you should watch out with what you say Jan. You don't know what happens behind the scenes. Gunther has given me full power over Franconia, and he does trust me. If you don't that's your problem, in a couple of years I will be your duke.
You are far too curious, let the people with the powers use those, it's not in your power to even discuss it.
I was not talking to you Ansehelm. Lothar doesn't have the !@#$ to name the man who he thinks is his Kaiser. And despite our differences, we have one thing in common and that is our belief that Kaiser Siegfried is the Kaiser. And the Diet is the very place where we can discuss it. I will not be silenced by peer pressure.
And I should watch what I say? You called for 3 dukes, count Hans, and Hummel to be killed!
That's something different, I said that before they voted, it's a mere persuasion.
And if Lothar doesn't care who's Kaiser he's quite right, I don't care either, as long as we have one who is seen as Kaiser by everyone.
So, you tried to "persuade" 3 dukes, a count, and an elector to vote your way by threatening to kill them?
And since when do you not care who is Kaiser? He's your brother! What has changed so much in the past day or two? And I get the impression that Lothar cares very much who is Kaiser. He just doesn't have the stones to say it up front. All his behind the scenes politicking is confusing him. He doesn't know what he should or should not say in public anymore.
Aye, I persuaded some Poles not to fight 2 years ago, they still wanted to fight. So I killed them, I see no problem in that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan
I never cared who Kaiser is, sure it would be nice to have your little brother as Kaiser, but who-ever it would/will be I'm loyal to the Reich, not to just one person or the other.
So, by the extension of your logic, if you can not persuade the people on the council to vote for Kaiser Siegfried, you will kill them!?! You do realize that you have just threatened four other people with death unless they vote your way. And I am the one that has to watch what I say?