The Magnaura

Patriarchal Representative:

I'm sure His Eminence would be very interested to know that the Caesar and candidate for Megas Logothetes regards the noble mission of the Crusade as nothing more than a "novel venture."

Aleksios has sat a bit dejectedley through the session. As the Crusade is announced, he grimaces slightly, though he tries to keep this hidden. The words of the Patriarchal represenative spur him into action.

Tell your master that Senators are entitled to their opinions. If he cannot personally appear to drum up support for his "unique" idea and his usurpation of the foreign policy of the Empire, then I won't have his lackeys insulting my son.

The Patriarchal Represenative is barred from speaking during this Senate Session. If the Patriarch wishes to promote this Crusade or denigrate those who dare question it, he must appear himself.

With a jerk of the Basileus's thumb, two guards flank the Patrarchal Represenative and begin to escort him out.

Vissarionas flinches at the mention of Antioch, and carefully considers his words before rising to speak.

Though I have atoned for my failure at Antioch I will make it known that I still consider it a hideous error and any man here is welcome to discuss it with me personally. To attempt to make political gains by use of that tragedy here in the Senate would, however, be cowardly.

That being said, I must also make it known that any man who treats the city of Cairo or her citizens as the people of Antioch were treated in that great disaster will answer to me. Personally. Cairo will not be sacked.

The former is simply stated, without menace or the overt implication of threat, but for those who know where to look the bright glow of religious fervor is blatantly present in Vissa's eyes.

I reject the idea of the proposed amendment. Indeed, I reject the idea of sacking or exterminating any city, any village, any wide place in the road for any reason. You who have done so may hide your actions from the Senate, from the Emperor, even from the Patriarch, but God has seen your red hands wet with the blood of the innocent. Remember that when your day comes.

I will pray that you have the chance to atone and be forgiven.

The standards of our enemies are of no concern. When have we let our enemies guard our honor? If those fools sow mindless slaughter then so much the worse when their infidel souls are dragged before the Holy Throne.

A faint sneer crosses Vissa's face, but is quickly wiped away as he returns to his seat and his quiet contemplation.

:egypt:

Makedonios has been watching the proceedings. When the Patriarchal Representative gets removed, Makedonios finally stands up and addresses the Emperor.

Your Highness,

That man is His Eminence's voice in the Senate. To remove him is to give His Eminence a slap in the face. Surely we can combat ideas with other ideas. Stifling dissent doesn't seem to do anyone any good.

I see nothing wrong with debating the Caesar's stance on the Crusade. Especially since he wants to be Megas when the Crusade is under-way.

He turns to face the Caesar.

If your elected, just what would you do to support the Crusade? Your speech is short on details. You talk of taking our armies as far west as the maps record. And then you speak of us not having the resources for a war on two fronts. Well, if this is true, then what support do you intend to give the Crusade? The Crusade will need priests to go and preach the Word. When the settlements are taken, they will need to be built up. Maybe even repaired. There will be a war with Egypt to consider. Will the Order get the resources to open up a second front against the Fatimads? To forge a path to our new Egyptian lands? Will the men in Egypt get reinforced so they can hold their position? What about the navy that will need to be built to ferry reinforcements over?

Because if this Crusade will not get your full support, you should let us know now so those of us who believe in the Holy Mission can evaluate who to vote for.

I wouldn't mind more details from Comes Savvas as well but at least he has made clear that he supports this idea whole-heartedly.

My Caesar, with all due respect, your acting as if this Crusade is just a nuisance you will have to deal with that will detract from your own plans.

Finally, Makedonios turns to Lisas.

Sorry but I do not see how butchering women and children will solve "dishonorable acts" against the Empire. I will not amend my edict as you've asked. You are more than welcome to propose your own edict.

*Lisas scoffs*
punishment in the afterlife? that will make victims families or dead soldiers spouses feel better, whilst, granted, a full coin-purse will not bring them back, it does make the suffering an easier burden.
That will inspire all the mercinaries we use to fight too, promise of purgatory instead of hell, they much prefere that to loot.

If your own order makes a choice not to sack the settlements it takes, then thats its own business, however, the order does not speak for every commander in the empire, and I would much rather every commander in the empire didn't have to follow the line of an order they havn't even swore loyalty to.

I urge the honourable Makedonios Ksanthopoulos to recognise this, and change his edict to allow sacking of orthadox settlements and in extreme cases extermination to take place, since, even if he and his order find them to be barbaric, they are viable tools of war to others, and far more workable then leaving behind half an army in captured cities to keep the population, who would rebel at the first chance they get, in line.

Whilst I do grant you, it wont solve our enemies dishonour towards ourselves, but it would prevent further dishonour.
In much the same way as hanging is a most effective punishment for murder.
Doing both can save hundreds or even thousands of lives and is the lesser of two evils.

I also remind you that we are only talking about extreme cases, its not like, if allowed the freedom to raze settlements, everyone would do it.

I absolutely refuse to put my name to such a bill. You would have to offer it yourself as separate legislation.

I dont think there's need for that, I trust the senetors can all see that supporting such an edict would make us a mockary on the international stage, a soft touch, if you will, who doesn't even have the earthly authority to punish its enemies, or take all the wordly goods from its own citizens that turn against it.
God even the Itallian peasants would laugh at us.

I point out to the senetors that the order is only bordered by those of diffrent faiths, in no city is there an orthadox majority, so they wouldn't be bound by its terms.

I trust, that when it comes time to vote, they will all make the decision on whats right for the empire and themselves, instead of giving away their rights, however barbaric they may be, to the order.

May I remind the strator that we have had the exact same edict in effect for the entire last term, except for the part about Crusade targets.

And the sky did not fall. I'm simply renewing something we've already had, and has worked just fine for us.

If you disagree, then see that the edict fails or propose your own. But I will not change mine to allow exterminations.

Apionnas shakes his head in clear displeasure as the Patriarchal Representative is removed from the chamber.

Standing he addresses the chamber.

This crusade is ill advised. While it is entirely possible that the Caliph has taken this decision, our response is simply playing into the hands of extremism.

Has anyone considered this could be an elaborate ruse to draw us into a conflict well beyond our borders?

Taking decisions like this needs to be carefully considered rather than simply blindly obeyed.

Ioannis waits for the two senators to pause, before standing up to reply.

My father was quite right to remove the Patriarchal Representative, as he had overstepped his place by insulting the Basileus' family, and the right of every senator to voice his own opinion.

As for the Crusade, I will not waste the the empire's resources on aiding a foolhardy campaign. Those who feel called by God are welcome to risk their lives and fortunes, but I will not risk the stability of the empire. While I also abhor slaughter of Christians, I will not go about alienating all our neighbours to avenge these wrongs.

Senator Ksanthopoulos, your arrogance knows no bounds. You ask me whether your Order will be given resources to open a second front to "your new Egyptian lands". Have you already divided the spoils amongst your followers?

The Crusade is nothing but a nuisance which will remove valuable leadership away from where it is needed most. If you wish to fight the infidel, then fight those who we are already at war with.

Ioannis angrily resumes his seat.

Makedonios stands.

Caesar, if your going to quote me, then I ask that you please get the quote right. I never said the word "yours." And I didn't mean "ours" as in the Order's land. I said "ours" as in the Empire's land. Because no matter who gets it, they will be our people. And if you will not support our people, then I ask why is it that your running?

The "second front" will be necessary to draw off Egyptian forces from the Crusade targets. And then eventually to forge a land route to Egypt.

And don't you ever dare call Antioch and Aleppo "spoils" again. Those are people your talking about.

So yes, I am very sorry that this "nuisance" has ruined your perfect plans to stretch the Empire way out in one direction but there is still the little matter of people being slaughtered. Not to mention the call from the leader of our faith.

So basically what your saying is, you will let people go on Crusade but then you will abandon them while they are over there? You just said, "Those who feel called by God are welcome to risk their lives and fortunes" and then said, "I will not waste the the empire's resources on aiding a foolhardy campaign." That is how you properly quote people by the way.

So why exactly should we vote for you? You've just promised that you'll abandon our men.

And finally, stop acting so hurt by what the Patriarch's Representative said. If you can't take criticism, then you shouldn't be in politics.

Nathanail has been resting his head in his hand for the length of the discussion, but now sits up and addresses the senate.

I think that we all need to observe the objective facts here. The Caliphate, whose forerunner collapsed the borders of the empire as worse as any turk, now plans to put thousands of Christians to there death as well as pious scholars to the flame and desecrate some of the holiest places to Christians.

To put it bluntly, aside for some barbarians to the north, we are the last bastion of Orthodoxy. These people who will be killed have no one to look to but us. It is our duty as Christian Byzantium to save these souls.

I have heard some talk of fanaticism and extremism, and I disagree wholeheartedly. We are not fighting a war of aggression, we are not waging war against the infidel, nor are we spreading the true word by the sword. We are protecting innocent, true Orthodox believers from the clutches of a madman. We are fighting in defense of these people.

Beyond this, all the territory to be gained was once roman possession anyway, and is coherent with our ongoing restoration.

I can see no reason to not support this honest goal, and can only assume that anyone who disagrees has some selfish goal they are not revealing.

Nathanial regains his seat.

While I agree that the atrocities of the bloody Caliph can not go unpunished, everybody must realize that this will be a dangerour mission towards lands far removed from the Empire. Striking at the heart of our enemy will be a devastating blow but they will bloody well hold on to their cities as well as they can! This is not for the soft-hearted and everyone who bloody decides to go should better be aware now that it will be highly risky and they might end up deep in enemy territory with little supplies!

But we also have another war to wage on the Anatolikon, one where Christian lives are also at stake. I refuse to give the Crusade a disproportionate amount of support, before we have secured our Eastern frontier. Right now as we speak there are heathens defiling the streets of the cities in our Empire. Our Priests do their best to convert the populace but this is a slow process! I think everybody has seen in 1095 what can happen if the religious integrity of our Empire is questioned. Before we don't have a strong community of faithful citizens on the Anatolikon I see no need to spread our conversion efforts even further!

Save the Christians in Cairo we will bloody well do, but we will not empty our coffers to send more than a couple of Priests to accompany these troops! If anyone is scared by this prospect he might just decide to stay home after all!

Ioannis gets slowly to his feet and stares at Senator Ksanthopoulos.

You will apologise for that insult, senator, and learn some respect for the Basileus and Caesar.

Ioannis resumes his seat.

Aleksios glowers at Makedonios and surprisingly at Ioannis as well.

Both of you are Senators of the Roman Empire, one that has reigned on this Earth for over a thousand years. Act with some decorum before I censure you both.

Aleksios shakes his head.

Let me be perfectly clear, there will be a Crusade. (OOC: It is an event, God (TC) has willed it.) However, I will not allow it to detract from our other endeavors or bankrupt the Empire. I strongly suggest that those with commands or lands stay behind. I will also remind those who do go, that they have a duty to the Empire as well as God. Do not forsake one for the other.

Makedonios stays silent.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

OCC:

I wrote something very different originally because I had not seen the Emperor speak yet. Now that I see he has, I have changed my post to be something... a little less confrontational.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AussieGiant

This crusade is ill advised. While it is entirely possible that the Caliph has taken this decision, our response is simply playing into the hands of extremism.

Has anyone considered this could be an elaborate ruse to draw us into a conflict well beyond our borders?

Taking decisions like this needs to be carefully considered rather than simply blindly obeyed.

---

My dear friend is correct! We should not blindly rush into action. Although I heartily support going. I shall, however remain on the Western Front. I implore all other Senators to make their way towards Cairo though. I shall man the Western Frontier. It may do my increasing stomach some good!

Michail sits down, after that last joke. His belly has gotten a slight bit bigger since the last Magnaura session. He greets his friends not seen for a while, with a smile on his face.

Iakovos stands sharply up.

I should think Caesar, that one of your intelligence would be able to discern between an insult and constructive criticism, and that when you say "...and the right of every senator to voice his own opinion" you also allow the other senators to voice that opinion. If you do not, then you are no better then the Patriarchal Representative you happen to have condemned, who I think had every right to in fact voice his opinion.

I also agree with The Emperor though, and I think we should actually sit down and discuss the logistics of the crusade, and decide what the empire can afford for this most Holy of missions.

Iakovos sits back down and immediately begins writing furiously.

Ioannis looks suprised at his father's words, but rises to speak.

My father is right, I have lost my cool, and deserve his rebuke.

Walking over to Senator Ksanthopoulos, Ioannis extends his hand.

"I apologise for reaction, it was not befitting a Roman senator."

Makedonios immediately stands up as the Caesar approaches. He extends his hand and takes the Caesar's hand.

I apologize if my words got... heated. This Crusade is a passionate subject for me. I appreciate your apology and I accept. I will try to do my part to make sure the proceedings are more... civil from now on.

With a head-bow to the Emperor, Makedonios resumes his seat after the Caesar walks away.

Markianos, having held little interest in the discussion, speaks quietly to the Asteri section.

Ah, I can smell the love.

He takes a deep breath through his nose.

Mmmm, smells like wild roses. Pink ones.

Savvas stands up and faces the Grandmaster

You ask me about my plans for the coming 15 years?

I fully support the Crusade. Not because I am a religeous fanatic, you all know me better than that, but because I detest religeous fanatics. Fanatics like the Caliph who decides to kill people because they are Christians.

So, let their be no doubt, I support the Crusade.

But, I also realise that the Catholics who are marching on Jerusalem are a threat for our Empire and thus our western and northern lands need some more troops, just enough to convince the catholics not to take a detour to Constantinople.

I am also of the opinion that the War against the Seljuks needs to continue. The damage inflicted upon us by the Turks in the past must be avenged and the shame needs to be wiped out with Turkish blood.

Allthough exterminating cities goes too far for my taste, after all, we are Romans and thus the only civilised nation in the world, I am also realistic.

It is my opinion that all Seljuk cities should be sacked and the most important reason is : money.

We need a strong border with the Catholics, we need priests and other... 'agents' to escort the crusaders and the armies fighting the Seljuks will need the support of our Empire as well.

The Empire needs money!

Grandmaster, I know that I have seconded your edict 3.2, but I urge you to rephrase it as follows:

Quote:

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No settlement can be exterminated. Whenever a settlement is taken, the conqueror is obliged to sack it. Crusade targets must be occupied.

---

Iakovos stand ups again

With all due respect Senator Savvas, your proposal is asking far to much. If you wish to discuss realism, then take into consideration that some would absolutely refuse to follow such an edict based upon their own principals. A ban on extermination is wonderful, but we should also limit the sacking of cities. At the very least, we should limit such activity to Turkish territory only, and not require the Crusaders to sack Cairo or Alexandria as well.

Ioannis Komnenos, having heard Savvas' speech, rises to speak.

Senators, some of you may think my words that the Crusade was a "novel venture" were harsh. It is because it is a distraction from the most important issue at the moment, the reconquest of Anatolia.

Some of you may feel confident of besting the Turk, after considering the great strides Senator Ampelas has taken in the past 15 years. But it folly to underestimate our Turkish foes. Have you forgotten Manzikert and its consequences?

The Fatimid Caliph may be seeking to provoke us by butchering Christians, but we should not use resources intended for the Anatolian campaign for assisting this venture. Here we can learn something from our Frankish neighbours. The Bishop of Rome called a Crusade upon Jerusalem, and those who chose to take up the cross did so, bringing with them their own retainers and pilgrims wishing to embark for the Levant. Yet we do not see droves of Franks or Germans streaming towards Jerusalem.

This is what intend to do regarding the Egyptian Crusade. Those who feel it is their duty to avenge the wrongs done to Christians will take their soldiers and any volunteers they can raise, but there shall be no compensation to those houses who commit soldiers to the Crusade. This Crusade was called by His Eminence, not by my father. As such, it a religious campaign, and not a state one. As such, the empire will not commit soldiers to this venture.

You must realise that if the Crusade should fail, non-direct involvement still allows for the negotiation of a truce with Fatimids, should the worst happen. We must not commit all our eggs in one basket.

Finally, we have no idea of the strength of the Fatimid Caliphate. There have been no spies sent to find out the strengths of our enemy.

Ioannis resumes his seat.

Aleksios speaks.

Ideally, the fate of a settlement would be a decision left to the commander of the army who takes it. It seems both sides in this matter hold strong views and would object to being forced to follow the opposite policy.

I would never wish to see a city exterminated, but sometimes sacking is necessary, or at least expedient.

Listening to the proceedings so far, Methodios perks up as he hears the words of Savvas.

I do not think Edict 3.2 should be rephrased along your proposal. Sacking always involves some part of killing as owners try to defend their goods. The purpose of this Edict is to prevent such pointless killings. Its current wording already allows for the sacking of Muslim cities. Your wording would allow for the killing of Orthodox citizens, something which I will not support.

As to the matter of the Crusade, I find it funny how many of you are today ready to open a second front so far from our lands when some years ago when I warned of the treachery of our Catholic neighbours and the need to wage a preventive war against them (a war we could have forced them to declare), a war fought on our doorstep, people used to laugh at me. See where your laughs got us ? Bucharest and Belgrade threatened, Zagreb and Sinop fallen... Now a Catholic crusade marches through our lands and even threatened us of war but all the eyes are turned southwards and overseas to act in the protection of Christians from abroad while we may not even be able to protect our own brothers...

Still, I agree that the Caliph should be punished for what he did. And I am prepared to ride to Egypt to punish him at swordpoint myself if need be.

At this point, I have not yet reached my decision on whether I will join or not. Though I am now landless, I still feel I and others may be needed to defend our homeland from Catholic invasion.

If enough of our generals remain in Greece, I will gladly join knowing that our heartland will be aptly defended. Until then, I will stay.

Zigavinos puts down the book he usually reads during the sessions, and turns to look at Methodios.


Are such killings pointless? The settlements and most of the people we take are enemies of the Empire, no matter what their former loyalties. Why should we endanger ourselves to show mercy to the great-grandsons of loyal subjects when the great-grandsons themselves are enemies of the Empire? Think on that for a moment.

However, the Caesar is right to focus on Anatolia. Not so long ago the Seljuks invaded us and shattered our eastern holdings. Generations later, we are striking back and taking what was once ours. However, this is not liberation, this is conquest. Call it reconquest if you like, but it is conquest none-the-less. The people in the settlements we take, Seljuk and other, do not throw open the gates in a joy and embrace the Empire again. They shoot arrows and fight us in the streets until the bitter end. They hate us! Yet some of you think that if we show mercy to the people, there will be no problems. Those of you who think that life in a dream-world. Even if we show mercy to all who oppose us and occupy every settlement, the hatred remains for decades. Every soldier who mans the gates and patrols the walls has to look inwards instead of outwards. Every time they walk down the street, the hatred might claim them at sword point. It is strength that awes people, not mercy. Hypatios and I have long campaigned in Anatolia, and time and time again we've seen the only way to defeat our enemy is to destroy our enemy. Exterminating every man, woman and child is not the way, but those who fight against us? Must mercy be shown to them?

As Ioannis takes a brief exit from the Magnaura, a page reads a document from the Caesar's bench.

"I, Ioannis Komnenos, hereby propose Charter Amendment 3.1.

Charter Amendment 3.1: The two offices of Lord High Chancellor and Lord High Steward, as well as the Privy Seal, can be assigned by the Basileus to any non-family member. Only one of them may be assigned to each general, and each confers a +1 influence in Senate voting. If the Basileus chooses to keep them himself, there is no influence bonus."

Waiting for Zigavinos to finish speaking, Methodios then rises and adresses him.

By exterminating our enemies, we demean ourselves... We are worth more than this... But do not mistake me : here I plead for the civilians, and the civilians only... Most of them suffer whatever rule they submit to, ours or those of our enemies... Let us not add to their grief...

I'll take Zagreb as an example : true, there was some rioting when we claimed the town (OOC : due to the fact that being claimed in the rebels turn there was no way to set taxes) but order was quickly restored and peace would have followed but for the rebellion which forced us to sell it to the Hungarians... I never felt an ounce of fear nor any of my men walking through town because they knew that I had an iron hand in a velvet glove...

If we go on killing pointlessly, I maintain, the opposition will only grow and not weaken... Like a reed, the people can bow a long way, but as soon as you release your pressure, they will unbow with a force you'll have difficulty countering... Show them some mercy and soon they will begin to see you not as an oppressor but as a friend...

As to those who take the field against us, it belongs to each of us to question ourself about the way we deem fit to deal with these either through execution, ransom or mercy... I wouldn't dictate to each of you his conduct on the field of battle, I know too much how war sometimes must dictate our conduct.

Savvas looks at Zigavinos.

Indeed, the Caesar is right when he calls the war against the Seljuks a priority.

But Zigavinos, you are wrong when you say that those of us who are not in favour of cruel attrocities live in a dreamworld.

We are Romans and should follow higher standards then the barbarians. Exterminating the poplutation of settlements is barbaric.

You speak of the fact that the Seljuks hate us. Yes, they hate us and their hatred will remain for decades. But if we are going to kill all women and children in their cities, they will not hate us for decades, but for centuries!

Besides, as I said before, we need all the money we can get! We all know that sacking gives the most short-term profits, it helps raising the public order because the population sees we mean business and it has the advantage that most of our future taxpayers survive.

Savvas smiles belittling.

Or does my esteemed colleague wants us Senators to start up our own farms and trading business to provide the empire with the necessary florins?