Conseil du Royaume

On hearing the Pope's potential objection mentioned some of the light fades in the Prince's gaze,

Yes, the Pope's favor may be expensive to purchase, but at least if we pay him we are not funding our future enemy. Obviously we will not attack this year, but let's not pay William to conquer the Scots either. If his invasion of Scotland fails perhaps he will be more amenable to a fair deal for the return of our lands. I do strongly object to offering the Bastard our hard earned money at this time.

:egypt:

Duc,

I see the political issues at hand. However, much is possible still within these confines.

Peace with the Germans is not yet obtained and I feel it will not come…formally that is. However, their ability to physically challenge us has gone. They find war on two fronts and I am confident we can destroy and repel any incursions they put against us.

As for relations with the Pope. Does not inaction against heretics and Muslims increase the Holy Fathers anger? Would action against the heretics in Iberia increase our standing with the Holy Father so that we will be in better favour to carry out a campaign against the English?

Hugues turns to Henri.

Young Prince, for now the Germans seem subdued, but events (OOC: :wink:) can intervene. Their allies, the Poles, could come to their aid. Or another oppurtunistic power could join the fray.

We are to low, currently, in the eyes of the Pope to call for a Crusade. I don't know if a conventional war with the Moors would aid us with the Holy Father.

As Seneschal, I must do my best to enforce the Edicts passed by this body. An exchange of land is called for, a war is not. A Crusade is not.

Duc,

I understand your restrictions. I am also bound by the edicts of the council but I cannot help wondering if a conventional war on the Moors would aid us.

Still, I am young. Perhaps my hatred for the English is too much for now.

Philippe raises his scepter, bringing quiet to the Conseil.

My sons, you know me... Do you truly think I relish having English soldiers tread on soil that is rightfully ours ? Do you truly think I enjoy having to lower myself to haggle with them for the return of our rightful possesions ?

Nevertheless, my sons, I think your reasoning is faulty... But such is the enthusiasm of youth... I hear only of expenses with regards to buying our possessions back from Guillaume when I should hear about the savings...

Caen is a well-developed castle, with a port whereas Caernarvon is only a step better than a stone cave when it comes to defending and Valencia is so wrought with heathens that the Holy Father has deemed necessary to ask us to have a church built there... So I ask of you : what are those two castles but money-sinks ?

Did we acquire them at great price ? No, and thanks to the valour of our men and our generals, both came at the cost of few of our countrymen's lives.

Lastly, Caen should be the perfect staging ground should we ever decide to launch an assault on Albion.

That would be serving that bastard Guillaume some of his own medicine... Fitting, don't you think ?

So if we run a comparison, are we better off with Caen even if we have to pay florins to have it or are we better off without it ?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ramses II CP

Perhaps we must simply wait until there are no more Germans before we rename the city. It is surely only a matter of time with their foolish insistence on warring with us and the Papacy.

Louis' face has cleared and his voice no longer carries the undertone of anger. As he turns to Gaetan de Rethel a look of understanding and compassion comes into his eyes,

Sir de Rethel I am pleased to hear your words. As the Holy Father above teaches, all men may err and require redemption. I have experienced this myself on the battlefield at Bern. I would not reject your oath, but if you will hear my advice Raynaud de Xaintraillies is more in need of your service currently. He oversees our holdings in Iberia by himself, and with the Spanish faltering and fractured the threat of the heathens could explode at any time.

Let me be utterly clear Gaetan; no conflict exists between us from this day forth. We are brothers in arms serving a nation at war. I noted with admiration your boldness at the pass west of Bern even before you spoke today.

I invite you to join me at Toulouse. I mean to send reinforcements into Iberia during this term, perhaps you could escort them to Sir de Xaintrailles?

:egypt:

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Gaetan nods.

"I will head south, to Iberia then, and reinforce de Xaintrailles. I thank you for your forgiveness."

Alain is handed a sheet of paper from his mercenary captain. He reads and in a particularly stiff fashion stands and bows formally to the King.

"My liege, I intend on departing Wales. Do you have any issue wiz me taking ze 'rest' of my troops wiz me?"

Philippe looks keenly at Alain.

Funny how necessity brings respect... or the semblance thereof...

You have my permission, Duc Alain though I would simply ask you to leave a single company in the city or make arrangements with the Senechal to provide for a replacement company when you leave. It would be unseemly to leave the city ungarrisoned in view of the English... Unless of course, our Senechal manages to trade it to Guillaume.

Alain shakes his head in disgust.

Yes, your most recent actions simply endear furzer loyalty and respect from me my lord.

I simply zought zat before you dismiss any MORE of my men, men who I recruit, men who fought for me and gave YOU Caernarvon, I would save zem from being dispersed into ze Welsh country side.

So, I zank you for your permission and respectfully recommend you command ze Seneschal yourself as to which regiments you wish recruited.

Philippe glares at Alain.

I'm truly shocked, Alain... And I thought you would approve cutting funds for mercenaries as, only last season, you chastised me for "spending lavishly"... The men may have helped you take Caernarvon but that was 10 seasons ago and what have they accomplished since ? Nothing aside from taking our gold, drinking our wine and living the good life at our expense...

I thought that the money spent on their luxuries could be better spent elsewhere, where it matters...

I didn't think you of all people would find fault with that...

Yvon shakes his head

if we hand Valencia to them then we will be surrounded on two sides. When they do attack, and they will, then we are going to be fighting a vicious war, and it will not be on our terms. My lord appears correct to me, It is our land, why should we pay them an arm and a leg for it?


Yvon turns to Gaetan, face hardening

It appears times change, brother in arms.

My Lords, I am truely in favour of granting Caernarvon to the English in a deal to cain Caen...and good luck to them.

It is the insistance of giving so much coin AND Valencia that sticks in my craw.

On thinking though I realise why so much coin is required...Velencia is just too far from the English crown to be controlled by them without significant expense to them. They are clearly not fools.

If we had a holding in Ireland or Norway I feel our deal would be struck with little coin or, indeed, arguments from the Council.

Velencia, for me, is a staging post for any quests against the heretics and should not be relinquished if at all possible.

As it stands however, Caen would be of much use to us.

I put my feelings to the Council and to my King, I can do nothing more.

Also, what do the Milanese think they are doing? As it stands two separate armies have marched from Italy and are making their merry way through Burgandy and Toulouse. I do not remember allowing them to do any such thing? This seems a breach of protocol that we should definitely try and fix. The armies are small so far, but I think we need to get it in these foolish Italians heads that we do not appreciate this behavior.

Christophe yawns and opens an eye.

Apologies, good sirs, I appear to have fallen asleep in the wrong place. I thought this was the Conseil due Royaume, where gathered the proud and courages nobles of France. I see that I was wrong and that I am instead surrounded by miserly merchants with no taste for battle. Please pardon me, as I had no desire to interrupt your petty hagglings. Could someone be so good as to direct me to whence I could find those men whose sacks are filled with brass, rather than gold?

Philippe looks at de Perrone.

And pray tell us, de Perrone, of your accomplishments ? Have done anything else but follow in the wake of my son Louis, with the baggage train, so to speak ? Here are men that have fought valiantly for the Crown and for France (pointing towards the benches of Lorraine and the benches of the Order) so keep your insults to yourself unless you have something useful to say.

There is more brass in these men's sacks that there will ever be in yours, they've proven it.

Hugues mutters to himself, "Flung by my own trebuchet" and then stands to speak.

My King and Seigneurs, we have all served the realm in different ways. Some in battle, some in diplomacy and some in administration. All service is valued.

Hugues glances at the King after saying this and then continues.

The question on the table is whether the deal that we can reach with the English is good for the Realm. The King has raised several fine points for it, and I agree with his Majesty. Others have stated we shouldn't buy what we can take by force.

I can understand those views, but given the current circumstances and edicts, I am inclined to make the deal.

Edit: Hugues turns to Lacaze.

I will keep an eye on the Milanese. I'll have more to say on the matter once I have the latest reports.

"The agreement is not ideal but it brings us a step closer to our goal.

In zat regard I also zink we should move forward wiz ze proposition."

Gaspard rises to speak.

"I must urge the Seneschal not to push forward with a deal that is disadvantageous to the realm. Sooner or later, the Normans will wage war upon us. We are all aware of Guillaume's greed, and his ambition is no doubt to put our Roi's crown upon his own brow. He will thus only conclude a deal which furthers those plans.

Instead, I suggest that we make our peace with the Germans and rush to aid the Scots, who are now, as we speak, fighting a war against the Normans. Should they be overwhelmed, then the whole of Albion - saving Caernarvon, will be in the hands of our greatest enemies. With the whole of the resources of those lands, six rich and prosperous provinces, Guillaume will be well placed to launch an assault upon our under defended lans.

Under most circumstances, I would gladly agree to negotiation over the sword, but the simple fact is that our neighbour cannot be trusted. I am sure our Roi remembers when Guillaume fought against his father, Henri. His plans were frustrated then, so we can be sure he will not hesitate to seize any favourable occasion to seek revenge.

I urge you, Duc Hugues, do not go through with this treaty. Instead, let us sharpen our lances and ready our mail, and ride forth to drive the Normans from these shores!

Gaspard resumes his seat.

Hugues responds to Gaspard.

Chevalier, I have reported to the Conseil how hard it would be to make peace with the Germans. I cannot snap my fingers and make it happen. Peace would most likely involve concessions of land and money. This has already been soundly spoken against.

The Scots, barring intervention from the Pope, seem to be doomed.

I do not want to fight a war on two fronts.

I will keep my Kings council on these matters for now. A continued offensive war against the English, though appealing to many of us at so many levels would only result ultimately in Excommunication.

That would be an unacceptable price indeed, no matter the cultural need we have to have our own lands back.

I can wait for this.

Thinking to the future, I see our quest into Iberia as something we will need to do in the near years, the cleansing of the Heretics is something that must call all of us eventually…Muslim presence on the continent will not be tolerated for much longer.

To this end, I ask, how will relinquishing control of our Iberian holdings hamper this? It is an open question but one the Seneschal and the King must consider.

Caen will be big boost to our nation that is certain and link our Kingdom finally, I care not for Wales so that leaves only the consideration of coin…can we truly afford this cost? With Caen under our domain finally, would the income from here pay for itself?

The next issue is the Milanese. I too have heard reports of at least one army, small this is true, near our Mediterranean coast. They are certainly no direct military threat as they are small but they can stop trade, affecting the states income, and if they do have aggressive intent they are more than capable of besieging one of our cities and potentially starving it out before aid arrives.

Should we strike at such an army though, even if they are in our own territory…would we…AGAIN…be verbally assaulted by the Papacy for striking at our Catholic neighbours?

Personally, I would see a small force sent to destroy these incursions where-ever they occur but perhaps just a significantly superior force needs to chaperone these forces away from our provinces?

Of course, it would also be more advantageous to attack these formations as the Milanese are rich and could pay ransom for their wandering men but I still am perplexed by the Popes responses to us of late.

My lords,

We have lived in a land that is oppressed and subjugated by the English for too long.
We have not shown them that we even dislike this situation and so the Scots think us unlikely allies.
The English also hold the most strategically useful regions available to us.
Three castles we need to make a professional army, two of which can develop trade and a navy.
One which doesn't need protection due to being surrounded by France.

All this and we have crusaded east and south, our holdings in Spain are under defended and vulnerable to the Moors. Our east holds on a knife edge with Germans being defeated Against the odds.
And the Italians march unopposed through our south and could take advantage of our small numbers.

I must ask why have we not liberated our home Provence's and built our military to defend our foreign conquests.
I care not why such a crusade into german lands happened but if the senechal doesn't wish to trade it back to them he must look to building a stronger military because the Germans will keep trying to take it back.

Christophe bows his head towards the King.

Of course, my Lord, my apologies. I did not realize that you disapproved of your nobles serving their lieges in battle. I most humbly apologize for fighting with Prince Louis at Valencia and Bern. I will endeavor to make sure that I ignore my rightful Lords' pleas for aid when I am nearby, particularly if that Lord is you. I would not wish to disappoint you in such a direct manner.

By the way, my King, what is the proper etiquette for dealing with one of your own vassals who has surpassed you in power? Do you bow to him, or does he bow to you? It must be very awkward for Duke William to receive your diplomats, under the circumstances. Just thinking of the protocol involved is giving me a headache!

Hearing the King speak to de Perrone so Louis raises an eyebrow,

Mon Roi I must protest, Christophe de Perrone has fought admirably under my command on several occassions. The only reason he has not taken a command himself is that I have not asked it of him. At Valencia he helped me drag down the mighty general El Cid, and though I do not doubt the courage of the men you mention I do say none of them has faced a foe so renowned as that Spanish rebel.

If my Hawk is vocal in his displeasure over bartering with the English this does him no discredit in my eyes. We know they will play us false in the full course of events. Do any here doubt that war is inevitable?

That being the accepted truth before God the matter becomes a simple question of whether the war begins on William's terms or our own. Right now he is engaged in foolishness to his north with the Scots, even as we are engaged to the east, for the moment. I say we could reclaim all our lands before he turned his war machine back to us, forcing him to fight his way across the Channel.

How can any red blooded Frenchman deny a desire to win back our provinces in battle rather than buying them over the table?

:egypt:

*Henri hears Phillips words and rises*

Again brother you change your ideals. First you call, as I did, for war on the English...then after being reminded of the very real consequences, you withdraw your statement and now you stand again to call for war?

Do you not remember why you cow'd before? Need you be reminded, do ANY of us need reminding of the consequences if we are Excommunicated?!?

Before you a choice then my Lords here present. Hold our German frontiers and wage war on the English and BE DAMNED...in the eyes of the Pope and God or gather our forces, defend our borders..ALL of our borders and strike on England when we have men and horse to do the deed so swiftly that the Pope will have no option but to accept our claims.

My good brother, I did no such thing. I simply said it would be more expensive to buy the Pope's favor, but that does not mean it isn't worth doing. I know that you are new to the Council but I ask that you pay more attention to the proceedings if you wish to contribute.

Prince Louis smiles in Henri's direction.

:egypt:

*A note is passed to Henri, which he reads and nods to himself before standing*

“Louis my brother, that is so. Perhaps with the coin gained from the English held provinces and our Sisters boundless skills, favour of the Pope can be regained.

We must though build up our forces more. We are battered from besting our German neighbours so perhaps a time of consolidation of our armies is overdue?”

*Henri sits again and starts to write a note before handing to a page who disappears via a side door*

Christophe nods vigorously in agreement.

By paying Duke William, we will receive one-third of our occupied lands and the King will be forced to formally acknowledge one of his own vassals as an equal. By paying the Pope, all of France will be re-united and the honor and prestige of the French Houses will be upheld. I clearly do not understand diplomacy or finance as well as some of the rest of you, but it seems to me that even if the cost of dealing with the Pope is greater, the benefits are more than enough to make it a superior investment.

Having observed the debate with great interest, Baron Thomas rises to speak.

"Gentlemen, we desire much the same, and that is the proper unification of our lands that rightfully belong to us. The issue is how to accomplish this. Although things are not moving as quickly as some would like, let us not ignore the fact that very real progress is being made in our standing in Rome. We are favored over England, and the Huns, well...we know that they are mere steps away from being denied the sacrament. Would any man here accept that same sentence of excommunication? I think not.

I favor no sort of alliance or negotiation with England. God will favor the righteous, we need only prove not just in words, but in deeds, that we are so. Talks of a crusade against the Moors may serve such a purpose, but the Kaiser's men at our doorstep make that a difficult proposition. But consider if you will that we have a church under construction in Paris and a small church in Marseilles. This will raise our standing in Rome. We can improve it further still by building other signs of our faith. The construction of a chapel in Toulouse, a small chapel in Metz and similar structures in other places would serve this purpose and not be financially crippling.

If we were to follow this path, surely the Pope would see we are true to our faith, so much so that he might countenance an act against the English should they continue warring on the Scots, or should our enemy to the east be excommunicated, we might be favored with an opportunity to call for a crusade in their lands increasing our standing still further compared to England.

Finally we should consider pulling back our troops in the east back to invite the Kaiser to bring damnation upon his people by laying siege to a town or two. All of what I suggest goes to one point, to demonstrate to God and the Holy See that our course is a rightous one. The question I put before you now is will my lords support such a course?"

Simon rises and bows towards the King.

As Captain of the Order of the Fleur de Lys I want to express the gratitude felt by me and my Brother Knights to you, for granting us a separate command. We will keep a close eye on the German border and keep our new posessions safe. If the Baron of Frankfurt needs specific help don't hesitate to ask for it. We will stay in the area and attack any German that dares put his feet on our land!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KnightnDay

Having observed the debate with great interest, Baron Thomas rises to speak.

"Gentlemen, we desire much the same, and that is the proper unification of our lands that rightfully belong to us. The issue is how to accomplish this. Although things are not moving as quickly as some would like, let us not ignore the fact that very real progress is being made in our standing in Rome. We are favored over England, and the Huns, well...we know that they are mere steps away from being denied the sacrament. Would any man here accept that same sentence of excommunication? I think not.

I favor no sort of alliance or negotiation with England. God will favor the righteous, we need only prove not just in words, but in deeds, that we are so. Talks of a crusade against the Moors may serve such a purpose, but the Kaiser's men at our doorstep make that a difficult proposition. But consider if you will that we have a church under construction in Paris and a small church in Marseilles. This will raise our standing in Rome. We can improve it further still by building other signs of our faith. The construction of a chapel in Toulouse, a small chapel in Metz and similar structures in other places would serve this purpose and not be financially crippling.

If we were to follow this path, surely the Pope would see we are true to our faith, so much so that he might countenance an act against the English should they continue warring on the Scots, or should our enemy to the east be excommunicated, we might be favored with an opportunity to call for a crusade in their lands increasing our standing still further compared to England.

Finally we should consider pulling back our troops in the east back to invite the Kaiser to bring damnation upon his people by laying siege to a town or two. All of what I suggest goes to one point, to demonstrate to God and the Holy See that our course is a rightous one. The question I put before you now is will my lords support such a course?"

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Lord Saint-Amand,

It pleases me to hear you say that. I suggested just such a move a day or so hence but your agreement to such a move now makes it much more possible.