Imperial Diet V

The house of Swabia wishes to put forward following legislation:

Charter Amendment 13.4 Caen is formally incorporated into the Holy Roman Empire.
Proposed: Hans
Seconded: Friedrich Scherer, Dietrich von Dassel, Wolfgang Hümmel


Hans sighs before addressing the ruckus in the diet
As for gifiting of provinces to the Byzantines.... we had learned the hard way how they abuse our trust, but that was under another byzantine emperor and before our more formal ties with them. If they should sell it off again to the highest bidder, then I think we should send them a clearer message, which I am sure the empress would not mind to convey?

I am not quite sure whether it is appropriate to challenge Siegfried's prerogative in his absence, as he will be away and Elberhard be acting chancellor. In a way, he is giving up his prerogative to have Elberhard rule in his stead, no? If he were to waive his right and Elberhard be elected nonetheless, then Siegfried could claim the chancellor's seat at a later time unopposed.

In the meantime, I believe it would be prudent to stay civil in this chamber.

Elberhard: Matthias Steffen and Duke Arnold - I cannot believe you are questioning the expulsion of Peter Kastilien! Do I have to repeat what he said about the Empress? Do not make me repeat the insult.

Elberhard sends a scribe with the Diet transcript to Matthias and Duke Arnold:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gibsonsg91921

@#$% you, Elberhard! I care not for some Greek dog! My brother brought their @#$%^ home to play, but I am German and care only about Germans. We are the one Holy Roman Empire, and those who do not call us superiors should burn and die!

---

Matthias - this was not expressing a "criticism of the Empress".

Arnold - this was not a "comment about Byzantium".

It was profanity and insult, aimed at the wife of our Head of State.

And Matthias, it is absurd to claim that the Kaiser must be here in person if he wishes to stop it. Are you really saying it is acceptable to insult a man's wife so long as it is done behind his back?

As to the idea that I am exercising a heavy-hand, this is laughable. In what country in the world could a man insult the wife of the Head of State in the Council of Nobles without consequence? In England, they would throw you in the Tower. In France, they would slice your head off. In Turkey, they would chop off your two little soldiers first. For Christ's sake, this is outrageous! Peter is lucky he is not in chains and charged with treason.

Let me make this absolutely clear - anyone in this place expresses a personal insult of the Kaiser or his wife, and you are out. If people don't like it, go and form a @#$%^&!!!ing Republic, for @#$%^&!!!s sake.

Ansehelm:
I know Duke Arnold. I disagree with most things my little brother says, but he stays my little brother. And I will simply not allow people shouting at him like this.
If you disagree with someone there are better ways of solving it. Talking in private, or voting his edicts down. Shouting in the Diet helps no-one, but unfortunately all who knew that are gone.
We don't fight here, if you want to fight some time, join my army. We don't fight in the Diet. If it would be up to me shouting in here would even be forbidden.

And yes, you want revenge on the Poles, so you're free to join the attack on Krakow.


And Dassel, I think it might be better for you to apologize. Fighting Dukes is not the best thing to do, besides you don't want others to suffer from choices you made.

Matthias raises and eyebrow and replies.

Count Peter von Kastilien has insulted the Empress, there is no doubt of that. What I am more worried about is the dearth of dissent in this chamber. The Kaiser seeks to take the office of Chancellor, which he then plans to hand to his wife and heir, exercising none of the power himself, and is not here to answer legetimate questions over such a unique use of his prerogative. Nor can we, unless CA 13.3 passes, do anything about it if the Kaiser ignores us.

Why even hold a Diet session? Has this chamber become a rubber stamp for whatever the Kaiser proposes? Yes, Prinz Elberhard, we are not England or Turkey, we are not an absolute monarchy! Some of our more vocal Electors are expressing, poorly in many cases, disbelief at such interesting actions that defy tradition and establish dangerous new precedents. The Electors are owed an explanation and a say in this matter.

If the Prinz is to serve as the Kaiser's steward, he should run for Chancellor himself. If the Kaiser wishes us to follow his lead, he should be present for this Diet. If he cannot grace us with his presence, it is a sign of disrespect and dismissal. If he will not listen to the Electors, we should make him listen, create a hue and cry he will hear all the way in Constantinople.

The Diet will not be ignored!

Elberhard: Matthias, are we in the same Diet, mate? Where the @#$%^&!!! is this "dearth of dissent" you speak of?!? It's getting like a nobles' revolt in here!

All right, let me break this down for you. The Kaiser has a right to be Chancellor. He opened the Diet and spoke to us all frankly, laying out clearly his proposals in four Edicts. You may vote for or against them. There is no rubber stamp.

Kaiser Siegfried will rule as Chancellor, not I. He will exercise the power himself. But his goal of re-unification requires long negotiations with Constantinople. He has given me clear instructions, also made public to you all in his two speeches to this Diet. While he is away, I will speak on his behalf to the Diet and will implement his orders, in so far as they do not contradict any Edicts this Diet votes for.

When Kaiser Siegfried has completed his negotiations with the Byzantines, he will return to the Diet and present the result for your approval. Until then, for @#$%^&!!!s sake, stop calling for his premature return and address any questions you have to me.

The Diet has not been ignored and will not be ignored. You have heard the man and you may vote for or against his proposals. I'm sorry, but you will not get a further opportunity to quiz him right now. You'll have to make do with me. A poor trade maybe, but surely not so poor as to warrant all this ruckus?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

OOC: Barring in a surprise reappearance, Ituralde simply cannot post any more for several months:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=600

Dietrich von Dassel:

Quote:

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And Dassel, I think it might be better for you to apologize. Fighting Dukes is not the best thing to do, besides you don't want others to suffer from choices you made.

---

Perhaps the same could be said about you.

Leaning forward to look at the Prinz more intensely

Elberhard,

The Kaiser has grand plans...but are they everyone's and are they of Roman making or otherwise?? Is he going to be able to do a good enough job to fulfil them without dragging us into a situation that leads to our destruction given he HAS basically not bothered to even asked us to contribute to this plan?

Alliances are fine...but the Reich is my sole aim...not Byzantium.

So far his orders are erratic at best.

Why does he find it necessary to take the chancellorship and then appoint the you in his stead? If he can’t be chancellor then why take it….

...as for an Empress being nominated co-Steward of this Realm!!!! Surely you aren't expecting me to take orders from her if you are not present...because that is what we are faced with given the current "WILL" of our Kaiser.

This is been done in the wrong way Prinz Elberhard...

Slowly pointing his obsidian encased hand at the Prinz.

…and you know it.

OOC: Hey Aussie Giant, the "young ones?" i'm older than u! haha

Elberhard: Duke Arnold, you raise a fair question: why has the Kaiser taken up the Chancellorship if he wishes me to be Steward for a while?

The answer is simple: because he wishes to use his Chancellorship to re-unify the Roman Empire and to do this requires he negotiate with the Byzantine Emperor in person. Do you imagine that the Byzantines would accept re-unification, with Kaiser Siegfried as Augustus, if he were not there to negotiate the matter personally? As soon as the Kaiser has an answer from the Byzantines, he will return here and resume his Chancellorship in person.

On the role of the Empress, I will preside over the Diet at all times and be the public face of the joint Stewardship. Even to the extent that the Chancellorship involves giving orders to Dukes - you do command your own Household Armies - then you will not be taking orders from the Empress.

Arnold

So why does he choose to take the position given this "negotiation" could take years? Is there any time frame on how long this is likely to take?

Is whipping up the consolidation of the Roman Empire likely to take our man, a week, two weeks, a year...does anyone HAVE any $%$ing clue?

It's not a particularly good move if you ask me...and before some smart arse decides that I haven't been asked, then, tough titties, I HAVE!!!

Your answer is simple my Prinz, and entirely unsatisfactory. So again I ask. Why is the Kaiser taking the position of Chancellor when he has far more important business in Constantinople!!??

And let me follow up my second point.

Pausing for a moment...the Duke is clearly warming to the topic.

Standing, he starts strolling in slightly effeminate fashion around the Diet floor, stopping momentarily to pick up one of the attending scribes quill's, he dips it in ink and then begins to wave it over the parchment about to be used to take note of his words.

The scribe, in abject terror is wide eyed and looking at the Duke like a cow about to be slaughtered. The Duke's eyes widen in feigned anger at the scribe and his sloppy workmanship, just as the man is about to collapse the Duke continues strolling releaving him of his presence...at this point even his voice takes on a slightly effeminate inflection

Let'ss ssay for argumentss ssake, you, Prinzz Elberhard, are taking a sstroll, thinking on what will become of this grand negotiation in Consstantinople. Perhapss even the wonderful night you are about to have with that voluptuouss English wife of yoursssssSa...

Spinning on the recovering scribe, the Duke raises his voice and points the ink covered quill and bellows

Sssuddenly!! An inquissitor popss out from behind a buush and turnss you into prime German roasst beef!!

Your wife iss disstraught, the realm is in turmoil, I weep openly at the brutal sssslaying of a fellow noble of this might empire...a Prinzzz no lesss.

Modulating his voice expertly he immediately spins back toward the Prinz and continues in a hushed tone...the scribe slides under his table having passed completely out from the strain. Again he begins stolling around the Chamber in a particularly effeminate fashion, the resemblence to the Empress is fairly obvious, his voice taking on an even more camp sound

Given Ssssiegfried Purple Pantsss is busy fighting his way through a blue haze and a collection of flat bellied dancersss on his way to meet Minisster 48 of the high rolling Byzantium Orthodox Interior ministry...for argumentss ssake...what in the #^$$#ing blue blazes of hell happenss then!!??

At this point his voice drops into a most chilling and harsh tone.

Has the Purple Pants Brain’s Trust thought about that!!!??

Are you seriously $#@^$#@ing telling me that THE, Empress is going to take over!!??

And in conclusion, and a point you failed to address…why are we not being consulted beforehand regarding the terms, conditions and parameters of this Grand Negotiation!!??

Elberhard: Duke, the reason why the Kaiser must be Chancellor to lead the negotiations is because the Chancellor runs the Reich. The Chancellor commands the disposition of our forces and a precondition for successful re-unification is a contiguous stretch of territory between the Reich and the Byzantine Empire. Another Chancellor would likely have another agenda and would not wish to subordinate his foreign policy or military deployments to the Kaiser's negotiations.

On your second point, Arnold, I find your concern for my well-being touching. I did not know you cared, mate. But if I do die and the negotiations are still on going, then of course the Kaiser will appoint another Steward to keep order in the Diet and be the public face of the Stewardship. It seems that the Empress's name cannot even be mentioned in this place without some oaf cursing it, so you do not need fear her standing before you, giving out orders. She has too much class.

You have not been consulted on the negotiations, because there have as yet been no negotiations to consult you on. The agenda is reunification, but what terms that will be on are open for negotiation. You know the broad outline: the Kaiser will be Augustus and Byzantine Emperor will be Caesar; the succession will be dynastic with Siegfried and Theodora's future son succeeding as Augustus; and the capital of the Roman Empire will, of course, be Rome. Those are the Kaiser's terms. If the Kaiser can get the Byzantines' agreement on these points, then he will return to the Diet to discuss the conditions for this agreement. If you do not like the Kaiser's terms or the Byzantine conditions, you - and indeed the whole Diet - will have an opportunity to vote them down. Re-unification would, of course, be a Charter Amendment and require a 2/3 majority to pass, so you need not fear being ridden roughshod over.

Finally, I do not know how long the negotiations will last. I believe it will be a staged process, with confidence building measures required before agreement can be reached. I expect we will hear some preliminary results within the year, but hammering out a draft treaty will take several turns.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

OOC: Talking about time in KotR in years always seems silly, given 20 year Diets and vampiric avatars. I prefer turns.

Dietrich von Dassel:

Fine. Then let someone else propose a Charter Amendment barring re-unification now so that the Kaiser may return to the Diet and this mess can conclude once and for all.

Raising his eyebrows at the response devoid of any real reaction from the Prinz

Christ Elberhard you are taking this seriously.

Has marriage sapped so much life out of you??

Ansehelm:
I will never reunify any Franconian city with anything that is Orthodox. I fight them, I have done so all my life. And so has the Kaisers father, my father.
Together we fought the Poles and Russians. And the Russians are Orthodox, just as the Byzantines.
The Russians and the Byzantines are brothers, and we cannot be brothers with those who are brothers of the Russians.

But if you children really feel that what's happening is bad, why don't you come with an Edict saying the Alliance with Byzantium should be cancelled.
We will easely see whether everyone agrees or not, simple as that.

Being of the same religion means less than you think. The Russians and the Byzantines have about as much in common as we do with the French.

That being said, I am concerned with the tone and atmosphere in the Diet lately. What happened to reasonable debate? Why does everyone keep piling on Duke Ansehelm and Prince Elberhard? If you disagree with them, just say so and say why.

All of the ad-hominum attacks, fear mongering, use of "some people say", outbursts, and peer-pressure is starting to worry me.

Well, since I may have stepped into the hornet's nest, I suspect I too will now be subjected to slander, curses, threats, blackmail, ad-hominum attacks, and general hostility. It's ok, I've gotten used to it. But, if anyone else is interested in introducing a more healthy debating atmosphere in the Diet, I would love to have a conversation.

So, are we the Diet? Or have we just moved the Tavern in here and no one told me? If that is the case, can someone bring me a beer?

Hans breaks out in laughter at the notion of the diet being a tavern and Jan ordering a beer

Well said Jan. We seem more at odds with fellow Catholics these days...

Elberhard: Duke Ansehelm, you raise an interesting point - the religious differences between us and Byzantium are an obstacle to re-unification. Religious re-unification is pre-condition for political re-unification. Ecclesiastical talks are already underway to bring together the Catholic and Orthodox churches. I believe the Pope will make an announcement on this within the year. As there has been for nearly a thousand years, there will soon be no Orthodox Church, nor for that matter a Catholic Church, just the Church.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

OOC, on the religious aspect of re-unification, see the earlier story:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=151

Ansehelm:
I will never reunite with the Russians Elberhard. The Kaisers father would turn in his grave would he hear this.
The Orthodox are our enemy, not our blood-brothers. They may be little different from us, but the Russians are still Orthodox and not anything else.

No Orthodox priest will ever set foot in Franconia untill entire Russia is defeated, I swear that, and I will make sure it is done.
You have never fought them, nor has my little brother. Well his father and I did fight them. When I just came of age and became knighted I was first confronted with them. And we beat them. They took Thorn, a catholic city, ours. And they destroyed our Catholic Church there, in order to build their own. I lost my city to the Orthodox, but I retook it, and at that moment I swore I would sack an Orthodox city, and I did it. I will never cease to fight them. The Russians are our enemies, not our friends. They are Orthodox, not Catholics.
The Byzantines are their brothers, the brothers of the Russians cannot be reunified with this glorious Empire.

Elberhard: Duke Ansehelm, would that countries did align by religion and we would have no enemies west of Vienna.

The Byzantines and the Russians may share a religion, but they are no more brothers than we are brothers with the Spanish. The Byzantines are our allies, not the Russians'. And the Byzantines are our brothers both by history - having inherited half the Roman Empire - and by marriage of our Kaiser Siegfried.

I repeat: if we re-unify with Byzantium, you will not have to fear a single Orthodox priest entering your lands. There will be no more Orthodox priests because there will be no more Orthodox chuch. Religious re-unification means that the Patriach of Constantinople has accepted the Pope's authority. If Russia wishes to stay apart from a re-unified church, then they will not be "Orthodox", merely heretics. Any heretics entering your lands, the inquisition or your men, are free to deal with as you see fit.

Ansehelm:
We are no brothers with the Spanish?
Do you know what my family name is?
Do you know what the Kaisers family name is?
It's a Spanish one, my cousins are the ruling party there. The Kaiser cousins are the ruling party there. I've still got land in Spain, more than you can imagine.

I will never allow any re-unification with the Orthodox Church, the Empress at becoming Empress became Catholic, as every wise person should. The Orthodox Church is our enemy, it's minions should never have attacked us.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

OOC: cut the re-unification about Religions, it simply cannot be simulated ingame, so we can't simulate it here.

Jan sits back and thinks about what Elberhard said about reunification. A smile develops on his face as the implications sink in.

I think reconciling with the Orthodox Church would be a marvelous idea!

The two Churches have been apart for far too long. A unified Church would spread the word of God throughout the land. I always thought that political unification with the ERE was a good idea. Now, I think it is an absolute necessity. The Lord would be most pleased to see his children united under one banner.

I wholeheartedly support this and urge all Christians to consider this as well.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Jan is up to 10 piety now so I have to find some way to RP it. :beam:

Dietrich von Dassel:

Prinz Elberhard, a question. You more than anyone else are privy to the Kaiser's dealings. Was he or the Byzantine Emperor the first one to propose this?

Ansehelm:
Elberhard, I somehow can't believe you did ban one of the Kaisers brothers, but you didn't ban this here.
*Ansehelm points at Dietrich*

Dietrich von Dassel:

Just because I have not decided to apologize to you, worm, does not mean that I am automatically banned. I have said nothing in here that even remotely resembles an insult to Theodora.

As much as the Idea of reunification appeals to me, I haver to wonder, who will rule this new "Superpower". Will he be of German blood, or more 'Mediterranean'?

Given how little the Kaiser seems to know about the State of the Riech, Caligari to Bavaria for example, I'd be concerned with his administration as much as I would taking orders from Constantinople.

Dietrich von Dassel:

Supposedly, Kaiser Siegfried will act as Augustus. Supposedly, the wily and clever Byzantine Emperor will meekly submit to Siegfried's rule. Supposedly, he will act as an heir should, and not even attempt to exercise any influence, going against an entire life's worth of instinct. Supposedly.

Ansehelm:
Franconia used to have an alliance with Swabia regarding voting for Edicts. But as I said "used", I see no reason in continuing this if certain members continue to speak as they do.
This is not directed at you Hans, I know you are one of the last that is able to speak with a bit of reason, and that you wisely did not give countship to certain people, but I'm sorry, if people decide to insult me I cannot continue an alliance with their houses. As of this Franconia's alliance with Swabia is done with, untill someone is either banned from this Diet, or apologizes and personally leaves this Diet.

You insulted both me and my little brother Von Dassel and I have enough of you, and believe me, would these be the plains of Russia you would now be in a hole, 6 feet deep.

Elberhard: Fredericus Erlach, welcome to the Diet. I am glad that at least someone here sees there might be some benefit in a bloodless expansion that allows our Empire to match that of the great Augustus.

And to answer your question: Kaiser Siegfried will be the future Augustus. The Byzantine Emperor will be Caesar. You will recall in the late Roman Empire, the leader was titled Augustus and his deputy Caesar. The Byzantine Emperor will be subordinate. That is non-negotiable. Moreover, the Kaiser's son will be his successor and the title will carry through that bloodline. It is only the union of Siegfried and Theodora, of German and Byzantine blood, that makes this re-unification possible. Of course, it kinda puts me out of a job, but after the bumpy ride I've had this Diet, @#$%^&!!! it, I think few of us will weep for that.

Dietrich, I confess as I have been in Outremer for most of my life, I have not been privy to the Kaiser's thoughts and plans. I do not know where they originate. However, I do know that the current diplomatic mission to Constantinople is the Kaiser's initiative, not the Byzantine Emperor's. Since its essence is the Byzantine Empire accepting our ultimate authority, it is not something that they are likely to be wanting to thrust upon us, if you get my meaning.

Dietrich von Dassel:

I have done nothing wrong aside from bruise your bloated ego. You will rot in Hell waiting for my apology.

Mein Prinz, thank you for your response.

I also don't think you did anything wrong Sir Dassel.

But I do think you are wrong.

Wrong about your characterization of Kaiser Siegfried.

Wrong about your prediction of doom and gloom.

Wrong about our allies.

Wrong about what direction we need to take.

Wrong about your style of debate.

Wrong about your characterization of Duke Ansehelm.

Before we are subjected in the Diet to any more cries about how we are stifling dissent, I assure you that I am doing nothing of the sort. I fully support your right to say what you have said. I fully support your right to use the legislative process in order to rectify a perceived wrong. But I also assert my right to disagree with you and to make that disagreement known publicly.

You have yet to offer one single shred of evidence as to why our situation is so dire... so immediate... that we need to pass a CA to block the Kaiser's rightful prerogative to have a Chancellorship. All you have done is prophesied certain doom and destruction for the Reich if we dare to let the Kaiser ascend to the Chancellorship. Until you offer evidence as to how horrible this possibility would be for us, I can not and will not support any attempt to take the Kaiser's right from him by legislation.

So, can we agree to steer this conversation towards a more constructive conversation regarding our impending re-unification with the Eastern Roman Empire?