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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Will anyone join me in sending a petition to Parliament to insist on replaying last night’s match and refusing to accept any result where the winning team scores fewer than 4 goals and is not leading by at least 2 goals at the final whistle?
According to the BBC and the Guardian the Icelanders are beginning to regret winning and, had they known the full facts before the match, would have given England a 2-goal start.
:laugh4:
Some good news at last.
The thick tongued twat Jamie Oliver will leave the UK if Boris becomes PM. I'll personally ring a taxi for him.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...PM-Brexit.html
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Someone from Leave should rather ask for a referendum to make the referendum legally binding because otherwise this Brexit thing will have to wait until enough MPs support it or may never go through if such MPs are not elected into office anyway.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7105181.html
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Mr Robertson said there had been "a lot of stupid statements" suggesting Britain could simply send a note to the EU to trigger "Article 50" of the Lisbon Treaty, which lays out the process under which states can leave. The article itself says a state can only leave in accordance with "its own constitutional requirements".
"Our most fundamental constitutional requirement is that the decision must be taken by parliament. It will require a bill," he said.
"In November, the situation may have totally changed. According to polls, a million vote leavers appear to have changed their mind, that could be five million by the November."
I mean, I've said it before, but now you have an article to go with it.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
It would be funny to see the dog catch the car, not know what to do with it and end up letting it go in shock.
I'm pretty sure these guys don't want to do anything because now they'll actually have to lead and try to solve problems and find out it's tough to do. This whole thing was meant to be a show on everyone's side. This was designed to be a topic to be talked about and used as a tool to gather votes and such, not to actually be passed. It's like the repeal of the ACA, it's more worth their time to yell about it than actually try to replace it because that's hard and then they can't blame anyone else but themselves.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Originally Posted by
AntiDamascus
It would be funny to see the dog catch the car, not know what to do with it and end up letting it go in shock.
I'm pretty sure these guys don't want to do anything because now they'll actually have to lead and try to solve problems and find out it's tough to do. This whole thing was meant to be a show on everyone's side. This was designed to be a topic to be talked about and used as a tool to gather votes and such, not to actually be passed. It's like the repeal of the ACA, it's more worth their time to yell about it than actually try to replace it because that's hard and then they can't blame anyone else but themselves.
Take back control
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Originally Posted by
AntiDamascus
It would be funny to see the dog catch the car, not know what to do with it and end up letting it go in shock.
I'm pretty sure these guys don't want to do anything because now they'll actually have to lead and try to solve problems and find out it's tough to do. This whole thing was meant to be a show on everyone's side. This was designed to be a topic to be talked about and used as a tool to gather votes and such, not to actually be passed. It's like the repeal of the ACA, it's more worth their time to yell about it than actually try to replace it because that's hard and then they can't blame anyone else but themselves.
That's the funniest part. Most of the politicians who supported or courted with Brexit idea, did it out of the populist reasons, never expecting it will actually happen.
For years they've been spewing populist bollox about uniqueness of Britain, Brussels oppression, lack of democracy, economic slowdown... And now they're actually surprised people bought it. Kinda like American conservatives with Trump. Suddenly everyone is surprised.
As the saying goes, you made your bed...
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
This is dumb. Just give your country back to France. Or Italy. Or Denmark. You don't know what you're doing.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
"fine leave" "you cant leave" "You wont leave" "you're stupid for leaving" "you're stupid for thinking we care" "leave already" "you'll never leave" "you cant survive without me!"
Christ you're like a jilted lovers.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Originally Posted by
Greyblades
"fine leave" "you cant leave" "You wont leave" "you're stupid for leaving" "you're stupid for thinking we care" "leave already" "you'll never leave" "you cant survive without me!"
Christ you're like a jilted lovers.
Being someone who's unaffected at either end, I'd focus on "you're stupid for leaving".
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Originally Posted by
Greyblades
"fine leave" "you cant leave" "You wont leave" "you're stupid for leaving" "you're stupid for thinking we care" "leave already" "you'll never leave" "you cant survive without me!"
Christ you're like a jilted lovers.
At least you now know that we do/did/want to love you.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Originally Posted by
AntiDamascus
It would be funny to see the dog catch the car, not know what to do with it and end up letting it go in shock.
I'm pretty sure these guys don't want to do anything because now they'll actually have to lead and try to solve problems and find out it's tough to do. This whole thing was meant to be a show on everyone's side. This was designed to be a topic to be talked about and used as a tool to gather votes and such, not to actually be passed. It's like the repeal of the ACA, it's more worth their time to yell about it than actually try to replace it because that's hard and then they can't blame anyone else but themselves.
Bold for emphasis - this is why some of us wanted to leave.
You have effectively admitted that you think the EU prevents National Politicians from leading the countries they are purported to govern.
For some of us, nothing is more important than Democracy.
The Population continues to strain against the "progress" made in the "EU Project", the UK Referendum is not the only negative result for the EU, the French and Dutch had Referenda on the EU Constitution and voted it down, the Irish voted down the Lisbon treaty before the financial crash.
The British were denied a vote on that Treaty, which is why it was ratified - though I imagine many other countries would have killed it too in a Plebiscite.
The EU's politicians don't trust their voters though, so they're forcing them into a political union which is palpably against their will.
The people in the UK are so opposed to this that it has poisoned our political life for decades. Cameron sought to put the issue to bed with the Referendum but do to his inability to negotiate any real concessions from Europe along with general distrust and, finally, the intervention of many European politicians and Institutions telling the British they were foolish to consider Brexit... it happened.
This is the Democratic Backlash from the Democratic Deficit - the EU has two choices, loosen its grip or watch the Union unravel. This is only now dawning on French and German politicians after their hard headedness forced the British out.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Im going to laugh when they don't leave. God, that day will be so satisfying. I may even take a personal day, to bask in it all.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Originally Posted by
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
This is the Democratic Backlash from the Democratic Deficit - the EU has two choices, loosen its grip or watch the Union unravel. This is only now dawning on French and German politicians after their hard headedness forced the British out.
Assuming this is real, they chose unravel:
European SUPERSTATE to be unveiled: EU nations 'to be morphed into one' post-Brexit
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EUROPEAN political chiefs are to take advantage of Brexit by unveiling their long-held plan to morph the continent’s countries into one GIANT SUPERSTATE, it has emerged yesterday.
The foreign ministers of France and Germany are due to reveal a blueprint to effectively do away with individual member states in what is being described as an “ultimatum”.
Under the radical proposals EU countries will lose the right to have their own army, criminal law, taxation system or central bank, with all those powers being transferred to Brussels.
Controversially member states would also lose what few controls they have left over their own borders, including the procedure for admitting and relocating refugees.
The plot has sparked fury and panic in Poland - a traditional ally of Britain in the fight against federalism - after being leaked to Polish news channel TVP Info.
9 pages of the "ultimatum" in english can be found here, scroll down:
http://www.tvp.info/25939587/europej...nalny-dokument
Reading the pages, while covered in euphamism and the occasional hyperbole the express article is correct in that this is a push for further integration. A multinational border and coastguard, sharing the fiscal and human burden of the migrants among the nations, a European monetary fund, it seems clear that the EU isnt backing off on what pushed Britain out.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Originally Posted by
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
Bold for emphasis - this is why some of us wanted to leave.
You have effectively admitted that you think the EU prevents National Politicians from leading the countries they are purported to govern.
For some of us, nothing is more important than Democracy.
According to the articles I've linked to already, maintenance of current levels of funding, by Westminster replacing that which will be lost from the EU, will be just as important. I'd like the south east to break away and leave the regions to their own devices. London in particular clearly has a different worldview from most of the rest of England.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Christ-on-a-bike.
For the final time this isn't about money.
It's about democracy.
Something you seem to have a feeble grasp of.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Originally Posted by
InsaneApache
Christ-on-a-bike.
For the final time this isn't about money.
It's about democracy.
Something you seem to have a feeble grasp of.
And yet the first thing these local governments did was get reassurance that their funding won't be cut as a result of the loss of EU subsidies. Why not volunteer to accept these losses instead, as proof of their belief that we're better outside the EU than in, and that this is a price worth paying?
And according to most who've been asked about their reasons for leaving the EU, the biggest issue wasn't democracy, but immigration. This was particularly the case apparently in those regions with the least immigration. London, with the greatest proportion of non-natives in its population, was the most pro-EU in England.
I wonder what the pro-Leavers here will think if we negotiate a deal which keeps us in the EEA, thus preventing our economy from completely collapsing, but this will of course mean accepting freedom of movement as well. As the case of Switzerland shows, the EU does not allow one without the other. Is this insufficiently outside the EU? Would you vote for one of the far right parties if the Tories negotiate this deal?
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Originally Posted by
Pannonian
According to the articles I've linked to already, maintenance of current levels of funding, by Westminster replacing that which will be lost from the EU, will be just as important. I'd like the south east to break away and leave the regions to their own devices. London in particular clearly has a different worldview from most of the rest of England.
That's much less important to me than Democracy - it's not why I voted, and I live and grew up in one of the areas affected.
That area will also be affected by no longer being subject to EU rules on farming and fishing. We will be able to set our own quotas and cut our hedges at the correct time of year for Britain, not France or Germany.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Originally Posted by
Pannonian
And yet the first thing these local governments did was get reassurance that their funding won't be cut as a result of the loss of EU subsidies. Why not volunteer to accept these losses instead, as proof of their belief that we're better outside the EU than in, and that this is a price worth paying?
And according to most who've been asked about their reasons for leaving the EU, the biggest issue wasn't democracy, but immigration. This was particularly the case apparently in those regions with the least immigration. London, with the greatest proportion of non-natives in its population, was the most pro-EU in England.
I wonder what the pro-Leavers here will think if we negotiate a deal which keeps us in the EEA, thus preventing our economy from completely collapsing, but this will of course mean accepting freedom of movement as well. As the case of Switzerland shows, the EU does not allow one without the other. Is this insufficiently outside the EU? Would you vote for one of the far right parties if the Tories negotiate this deal?
Pannonian, you're constructing a Strawman.
No one here who voted to leave is primarily concerned with subsidies. Nor are we all that concerned with the issue of immigration, really.
Let's assume we opt for the "Norway" model - that immediately gives us control of farming, fisheries, Justice and Home Affairs. Do you realise that one of the reasons all these reasons need constant cash injections is because the CAP and fishing quotas had reduced them to grinding poverty?
No?
That's why you voted Remain.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Brexit is going to wreck some serious constitutional havoc in the first place - the UK constitution is uncodified (:book:), is based on a common law system, has fundamental constitutional documents that some are as 800 years old... and with 40 years of Europe within this system, breaking those agreements down and making it work within a "post-Brexit" UK is frankly a legal nightmare for those who will be directly involved in making sure that all of this will work out efficiently and properly after the entire dust and debate has been settled. Constitutionally, the UK is in for some very rough seas and the problem is that nobody knows how this will pan out because you have to unravel all of those European Union treaties, essentially some decades old, take them out and then make sure your constitution works efficiently without any imbalances.
The democratic vote has been cast - and you now have a legal nightmare.
And you have to renegotiate some treaties as well. That's going to be a lot of fun and games in the next two years.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Actually, the UK Constitution isn't a huge problem, specific legal provisions will need to be looked at but the EU hasn't had a profound affect on our Constitutional Arrangements - we have resisted writing a Constitution and have maintained a system of Common Law subplemented by the Statute Book.
Off the top of my head the biggest change the EU has affected is separating our judiciary from our legislature by forcing us to create a Suprem court. That's certainly no small thing but in reality it's a de jure change rather than a de facto one.
We'll do what we've always do - stick with the status quo until we need to change it, and if it's a legal mess problems will be dealt with as they come up.
In other news - I feel bad for Poland and Sweden et al as we were the biggest anti-Federalist voice and by leaving we've rather left them on the hook, but there's only so much you can do.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
It's not that simple - after the 1972 European Act, every national law was made in accordance to the European law, particularly the doctrine of European supremacy of law. Taking 40 years of national laws out of the common-law system of statutes is not really the easiest feat to do, and it can cause problems.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
There's a reason the only people who said it would be easy also crapped themselves when the bandwagon they jumped on actually won.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Originally Posted by
InsaneApache
Christ-on-a-bike.
For the final time this isn't about money.
It's about democracy.
Something you seem to have a feeble grasp of.
Even if it was only about the money, it doesn't matter, after the expected nosedive everything is recovering just fine. I know where I am going to spend my next holiday, not because England is all that awesome but just because I like you.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GQZyP_Odio
Branson wants another Referendum, because people didn't realise what would happen.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Originally Posted by
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
Apart from the end of western civilisation, a continental-crisis and ww3?
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
The impression I gather is that the UK would happily have stayed in the EEC, but not the EU -- that the UK has been progressively less happy with the whole thing since the Maastricht treaty. In other words, that European economic arrangements made sense to them, but not the EU exerting control over internal policy on social or defense issues.
I could be wrong.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Your not wrong. No different in the Netherlands.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Originally Posted by
edyzmedieval
It's not that simple - after the 1972 European Act, every national law was made in accordance to the European law, particularly the doctrine of European supremacy of law. Taking 40 years of national laws out of the common-law system of statutes is not really the easiest feat to do, and it can cause problems.
While this is technically true it's not an immediate problem. Parliament can pass a new Act stating that all these laws will remain in place and the 1972 Act is repealed. In the long term, yes, we need to sift through all those EU laws, keep some, repeal some, modify others - in the short term we can maintain the Status Quo. One advantage of our Parliamentary System is that we had to pass a Statute to enact every EU regulation, and those don't just go away - they stay on the Book until repealed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Seamus Fermanagh
The impression I gather is that the UK would happily have stayed in the EEC, but not the EU -- that the UK has been progressively less happy with the whole thing since the Maastricht treaty. In other words, that European economic arrangements made sense to them, but not the EU exerting control over internal policy on social or defense issues.
I could be wrong.
That's basically it - even the complaints about "immigration" are complaints about wage depression and the fact that nobody asked..
That's the big thing - transfer of power from the EU after Maastrict and Lisbon from the UK Parliament to the EU without consent of the people who elected the UK Parliament. We elect our politicians to hold the reins of power, not to give them away.
The problem is present across the EU but I think it was felt most keenly here because of our particular history. Other countries likely have breaking points that are a bit further down the road.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
Bold for emphasis - this is why some of us wanted to leave.
You have effectively admitted that you think the EU prevents National Politicians from leading the countries they are purported to govern.
For some of us, nothing is more important than Democracy.
The Population continues to strain against the "progress" made in the "EU Project", the UK Referendum is not the only negative result for the EU, the French and Dutch had Referenda on the EU Constitution and voted it down, the Irish voted down the Lisbon treaty before the financial crash.
The British were denied a vote on that Treaty, which is why it was ratified - though I imagine many other countries would have killed it too in a Plebiscite.
The EU's politicians don't trust their voters though, so they're forcing them into a political union which is palpably against their will.
The people in the UK are so opposed to this that it has poisoned our political life for decades. Cameron sought to put the issue to bed with the Referendum but do to his inability to negotiate any real concessions from Europe along with general distrust and, finally, the intervention of many European politicians and Institutions telling the British they were foolish to consider Brexit... it happened.
This is the Democratic Backlash from the Democratic Deficit - the EU has two choices, loosen its grip or watch the Union unravel. This is only now dawning on French and German politicians after their hard headedness forced the British out.
tl:dr "The more you tighten your grip, the more countries will slip through your fingers."
Thank you your Worshipfulness
