Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations II

A renewed war against them would help nothing, all I see here is a shamed senator crying for more Roman death and bloodshed because he is not within the capacity to return his son from the afterlife.

Senator Coruncanius, as far as you not standing for peace with Carthage, then by all means senator, sit down.

I say let there be an alliance with Carthage, she could take back her lost territories in Iberia, and it would calm our western front, giving the Republic some breathing room to deliberate on the best possible strategy for the years ahead.

You see very little, Servius Aemilius.

I support those who would propose peace with Carthage - but I say this. Do not expect them to accept peace. They are a proud and stiff-necked people. Even if we were to offer them 10,000 denarii rtibute every season for the next 100 years, I doubt they would accept a ceasefire.

I do not propose that we offer them tribute, but I do propose that we try and get a ceasefire with them. And when they reject it, then, Jupiter willing, we make plans to invade and destroy them.

I am pleased to see such a lively debate. I just want to clarify some issues at this moment.

Carthage and Rome have been at war for a very long time, but hostile actions have stopped once we conquered Sicily and the islands. Still, no cease fire has ever been signed, altough several attempt were made by us to reach an agreement. Trade with Carthage would be extremely profitable for us. They have shown that they are capable of mounting naval invasions and we should be wary of this.

The only troops that crossed the Danube are the Legio I Italia Victrix. My reason for this action is that it is the only way I could think of to stop the Thracian invasions. The taking of Luvavum should shift the action to that town and relieve pressure on Aquileia. We still need a legion there to guard that border crossing. The second legion recruited after this will be posted there, if possible.

Tiberius Coruncanius will guard the river crossing at Ratiaria, and attack any Thracian forces that enter our territory. Then he will withdraw to the crossing again. I will not allow Roman troops to stay on the other side of the river.

I encourage you to continue the debate and propose motion in the upcoming senate session (2 more turns).

I will support those who wish peace and trade with Carthage.

Senators, I am not a young man anymore, and Rome has been at war for as long as I can remember. It is time to take a deep breath. Not to become a nation of cowards, but to be ready to strike with more force when the time and circumstances are right.

Carthage is getting stronger, but they are in a similar position. They have the powerful Egyptians as neighbours, just as we have the Iberians, and they have a reason to wage war in Iberia, just as we do in Thrace.

We need reorganisation, our men need rest. We need reinforcements, organise the army to a homogeneous structure again, and setup proper garrisons in the newly acquired regions.

I would even go further, and not only propose a ceasefire and trading rights to Carthage, but also a ceasefire to the Thracians to reorganise our frontline, and setup a line of forts on the Danube, and bring in fresh armies from Italy.

As of my opinion about the need of trade with Carthage, I believe it is obvious. We need money. And who better than our old enemy to provide it?

OOC: I believe there is a landblock between Egypt & Carthage, so war between those 2 is unlikely. Is there a landbridge across the straits of Gibraltar?

I too support peace with Carthage. There is much to be gained from a formal ceasefire and much to be lost from open warfare. Increased profits and a secure southern provinces would be enormously beneficial. Blockade of our ports and a further straining of our Legions would tax us to our limits.

I believe it is in our best long-term interests to broker a peace with Carthage. In order to do this, we will need a new diplomat to propose this treaty, as our current diplomats have already been discredited in their eyes. A new man will have a better chance of reaching an agreement. I believe that we will also have to be prepared to give them short-term benefits in order to gain the formal ceasefire. However, this would be money wisely spent, as it would be rapidly returned to our coffers in increased trade. Furthermore, Carthage is bound to seek to expand outside of Africa now that Numidia is finally subdued. There are only two logical routes of expansion for them, through Sicily and through Iberia. We have already spent much time debating the worth of the Iberians and I think that we would all be pleased to see them attacked from the south by Carthage. Therefore, let us make strenuous efforts to gain a formal ceasefire with these people.

I would be willing to support a one-time 'donation' to Carthage of up to 20,000 dinari if it resulted in peace. Another possible option is Bourges. Taking Bourges would finally eliminate the Gauls as an organized enemy, but it is fully enclosed in Iberian provinces and we do not have any desire for it. Perhaps Carthage would be interested in this provice though. We should take it and offer it to them if it would aid in reaching a formal ceasefire. In addition, the close borders that it would create with Iberia might fan the flames of their old war once again.

Were it necessary, I would even accept the return of Melite to Carthage if a ceasefire could not be gained any other way. This island brings little profit to the Republic and there was never a great struggle to take it in the first place. It would not be dishonorable to Rome to return Melite in order to gain peace with Carthage, if no other proposal was acceptable to them.

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Given that the mid-term session of Senate is not far away, the nature of the offer to be made to Carthage might be reserved to be decided by motions made then. However, as preparation, I second Augustus Verginius's to recruit a new diplomat. In addition, I suggest transferring the ancillaries gathered by our older, more discredited diplomats. We should aim to create a particularly influential diplomat who will be reserved for making offers that are either of the utmost importance or very likely to be accepted.

I agree with Numerius Aureolus, legislation would be an effective way to determine the limits that the Republic will allow in negotiating a ceasefire with Carthage. When the mid-term session begins, I will propose each individual bargaining point suggestion as its own piece of legislation and I urge others to do the same. For instance, I will propose a motion to authorize up to 20,000 dinarii, a second motion to authorize the ceding of Melite, and a third motion to authorize the ceding of Bourges, if it is taken. Legislating in this manner will allow for each individual asset that can be proposed to be voted for or against on its own terms, without limiting any other aspect of the deal. I believe in this way we can give the next Consul the maximum available options in any negotiations he may make with Carthage.

I could be partial to sending the Carthaginians up to 20,000 denarii, as you have stated, but an expedition to Bourges would send a Roman legion through Iberian territory, I would rather not prompt the Iberians into misconception and have them attack the legion. Melite, on the other hand, is of little use to Rome, and if we have not already spent a significant amount of money trying to incorporate it into the Republic, than perhaps its return to Carthage could be the building block to a much better relationship with our African neighbors.

I am glad to see that some of you are level-headed enough to see that peace may come with a price, and are prepared to pay that price.

At this point may I bring up the other factor in the Rome/Carthage equation, namely, Iberia.

We have all been discussing peace with Carthage as a way of helping us avoid war with Iberia. But there is another way to help prevent that; namely, to induce Iberia into renewing hostilities with Carthage. This may involve some kind of treaty with Iberia, perhaps even giving them some of the Gallic settlements we are currently besieging.

You there!

*points at slave*

Quick, go help Augustus Verginius, he seems to be choking on something!

Are you that afraid of Carthage, Senators, that you would pay them tribute? Yes, that's what it is. I never thought I'd see the day when Rome was paying tribute to another nation. I am deeply worried about its future.

I side with Tiberius Coruncanius, and will not support any attempt to give away hardwon territory.

The offer of 20.000 is also excessive in my opinion, altough I would be willing to go as far as 5.000, IF they accept trade along with the ceasefire.

I am willing to support the idea of a superdiplomat.

There is no landbrige in the straits of Gibraltar. What we could try, ifwe get into a war with Iberia, is to conquer some of Carthage's old Spanish provinces and give it to them freely. Then they would go all out in sending troops to fight Iberia. If the AI does not have a beachhead he is reluctant to invade.

OCC : Peace offers to Carthage on VH/M are pointless as long as we hold territory that was theirs originally. I do not believe they will settle for anything less than the return of all their old provinces, and then they will immediately attack us as we are their neighbours, thus making this exercise pointless. If we were playing M/VH or even H/VH this plan might actually have a chance of succes. On VH diplomacy is almost impossible.

There is one more thing I'd like to point out. There seems to be some confusion about the location of the Danube. Legion I and Lucius Aemilius have not crossed the Danube. The river they crossed was the Savus, Danube is further to the north. Both Iuvavum and Oduba lie on our side of the Danube.

*A messenger walks into the Senate, having received approval from the speaker he unrolls a scroll and begins to read it*

"Conscript Fathers, Publius Pansa sends you greetings from Philipi, former capital of the Macedonian "empire". I won't bore you with details of the battle, it really was quite tedious. Those wretched Macedonians take so long to die without actually killing anyone. Well, Romans anyway. Auxilia and Mercenaries are so good at charging their phalanxes whilst my Legionaries flank them.

Anyway, like I said, boring battle. The wine though, ahh, they have some excellent wine. The officers of the 4th and I are enjoying some wonderful grape. Anyway I digress.

Oh, I've written a poem by the way, the men love it, let me know what you think.

There was an old ruler from Greece
Who had a voluptuous niece
She had men in fits
With her lovely big tits
She even takes it up the ringpiece"

*At the last line the messengers voice trails off into silence amid a stunned senate, apart from a few senators who can be seen & heard trying to stifle their laughter*

Senator Coruncanius, the fact of the matter remains that Dardania was taken, Dardania having territory on both sides of the Danube. Having Roman territory on both sides of the Danube is going to make it much more difficult to prove to the northern barbarians that Rome has no interest in lands north of the river.

Grandfather Lucius, I can understand your position in regards to territory, but sometimes concessions must be made for the greater good.
And although 20,000 seems like a lot of money, how is 5,000 supposed to buy us peace? A mere 5,000 denarii can barely pave the roads of one province.

Servius Aemilius, the objective of stopping conquests at the Danube was not to appease barbarians, but to provide an easily defensible frontier that is the river itself. In order to be able to defend at Danube's fords, we must take all settlements on our side of the river. Some of those settlements do control territory on the other side, but it should not be very difficult to defend.

On an unrelated subject, I am most distrubed to find that Argeos of Pharsalus, the very last member of the Macedonian royal family, escaped from Philippi. This would not have happened had there not been numerous delays in Legion IV's movement. I find this to be an inexcusable failure on the part of Legate Publius Pansa and Consul Lucius Aemilius.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lucjan

And although 20,000 seems like a lot of money, how is 5,000 supposed to buy us peace? A mere 5,000 denarii can barely pave the roads of one province.

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Servius, 20.000 gold pieces IS a vast amount of money, it is almost equal to the entire income of the Republic ! As Carthage is the loser of this war it would be appropriate for THEM to pay us tribute, instead of the other way around. I think I am already being way too generous to our enemy, and only the forsight of future trade is making me so flexible.

I am not sure that Argeos of Pharsalus did in fact manage to escape. Legate Publius Pansa will have to shed his light on this. If he did escape, rest assured we will track him down. There's only one place left for him to run to.

It is clear that you care nothing for how thin Roman lines are stretched. Stretch them to the breaking point if you will, if that is what you so desire senator Coruncanius, but there will be no pity for you when you stretch them to their breaking point and allow barbarians to storm the Republic because there are not enough legions to protect every ford and valley you would have us take. I would not be suprised if I see you soon trying to pass legislation to have a legion stationed in your backside, Jupiter forbid the barbarians find an entrance to Rome through there!

[SENATE SPEAKER]: Order, Senators, order! This is no way to debate! Servius Aemilius, please apologise to ex-First Consul Tiberius Coruncanius. Your remark about barbarians finding secret passages to Rome was quite uncalled for.

Servius Aemilius, you voted for Motion 9.18. The Consul has not, and does not plan to, take any settlement beyond the Danube river. If you are suggesting that we leave settlements on our side of the river in enemy hands while trying to defend a frontier along the river, as the motion you voted for orders, then I do hope that you will receive more education in the field of military strategy before you are done with your studies.

At my request, legate Publius Pansa has agreed to serve as my co-consul during my next term, acting as a replacement for the recently deceased Amulius Coruncanius. We will exchange command whenever one of us gets involved in a battle. The person involved in a battle will then take over as first consul. Our general strategy will be determined together and made public during the interim senate session.
Requests, favours (sotto voice and bribes) can be adressed to either consul.

Tribune Marcellus Aemilius and the Legio III Sicilia Aemilia are attacked the Gaul capital of Comata, leaving no survivors and killing the Gallic King Segovax the Cunning. This victory greatly boosts morale in the Legio III Sicilia Aemilia and regains their honour. Now all they need is their eagle back and...

The time has finally come !

Legate Augustus Verginius and his Legio II Sabina Quintia are attacking Gergovia, where the stolen legionary eagle is hidden !
I hope all of you make appropriate sacrifes to the Gods, that he will be succesfull in this endavour !

I wonder if word has reached them that they have lost Comata and are without a King?

Oh well, in a few hours it won't matter to any of them.

I clearly outlined my idea of what a reasonable protection of the Danube would be, I voted for the motion because I do favor a Danube border, but without taking provinces with excessive land on the opposite side.

As for Gergovia, may the Gauls be finally put in their place and the eagle returned to Roman land. My best favor and wishes to Augustus Verginius in this battle.

{Galerius Vatinius}

I must commend senator Marcellus Aemilius for his work at Comata in dealing with Segovax. Just a footnote of the battle ahead to be sure, but a gallic king slain is a Roman victory any day. Ah, I cannot wait for the news to arrive of Verginius' victory at Gergovia! A great feast we shall have when the Gauls have been subjugated to the last man, drinks on me!

Senators,

As you all are aware I have been concentrating on the military hearing which has just ended. As such I have not been aware of what has been occurring in the greater Republic, but I have thankfully completed the reading of the most recent transcripts.

On the matter of Carthage. I was there a number of years ago, the more senior members of the Senate will recall and at that time I called for their destruction whilst they were weak……such calls were voted down and now Carthage is strong and it appears that the Senate is afraid of them!

For shame Senators, for shame indeed. You appear afraid of Carthage and……with good cause! They have united Greater Afrika and can now consider themselves equal to us perhaps, in their own minds that is. However, having lived amongst them for so long perhaps I can aid the Senate in their assumptions as to what they may do now.

Carthage will be flush with victory right now but like us there will be divisions. Some will look to retaking their lost Iberian lands, others will look closer to Cartho herself and to the Islands we liberated from them all those years hence….yet others will seek to consolidate what they have now attained with a view to achieve all the other goals.

Truth is, we can speculate all we wish…..what we need is eyes in Carthage to monitor them – I propose I am sent for such a task….again.

Despite my calls those years ago for war on Carthage, times change. The plain fact is that the Republic is overstretched with conflict at this time and can ill afford war with Carthage….or, in truth, any other neighbour! We should seek a diplomatic avenue with Carthage at this time, though I feel it will be to nought, IF we do succeed we will line our stores with Carthage grain and gold and prepare for war with them….for war will surely come as the sun rises each day.

Perhaps the Iberians will be the target of the Carthaginians…..we can only hope this will be so.

Once we have finished Macedonia completely, safely secured our borders with Thrace, annihilated the Gauls AND found out what Iberia has planned…..THEN and ONLY then can we consider a conflict with Carthage.

Senators, we have too many fronts, too many wars and insufficient funds OR men to fight them. War with Carthage IS inevitable, but not now, not now.

My thoughts go now to Gaul and the hope that the Legio III Eagle can be taken with little loss….and a reminder to the Senators to vote for what punishments are most fitting for its loss.

I will also point out that, as it stands and in my role of Praetor in the Hearing, the punishments will be two-fold. It is possible and therefore acceptable to me to both Banish AND Censure in this case.

Senator Decius Curtius,

You are currently deep in the Sahara desert, mapping the holdings of Carthage. I hope you can finish this demanding task before your advancing years overtake you (BTW, grey hair suits you :laugh4:).

(a resounding OOC "D'oh!")

...hmmm...d'ya think? I always thought Black was my colour but I guess Black is very hot here in the desert.

My point really should be made, that I think I'll be best suited back near the main cities of Carthage where I can monitor their troop building abilities and the, now more advanced, infastructure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Death the destroyer of worlds

I am not sure that Argeos of Pharsalus did in fact manage to escape. Legate Publius Pansa will have to shed his light on this. If he did escape, rest assured we will track him down. There's only one place left for him to run to.

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The Macedonian army in Philipi was led by one "Atalos of Larissa". My spies report that Argeos is across the border in Ptolomite territory, no doubt scuttling back to Debeltos with his tail between his legs.

No matter, the Ptolomites will soon finish them off if we don't.