Imperial Diet V

Dietrich von Dassel:

I believe that the Kaiser is a worthless administrator.

I believe that he is following policies mandated by the Byzantine Emperor rather than his own head.

I believe that he has stifled criticism in this Diet to excess.

I believe that he entirely fails to grasp the magnitude of the rare Diet sessions and considers anyone who is not leader of an Empire unworthy of speaking to.

I believe that his policies are not in line with the rest of the Electors' policies.

Therefore, I do not think that someone whom the majority of the people disagrees with should be leading us.

Ansehelm:
I think it would be wise for Hans to come back, would he not want things to escalade. Clearly even a Swabian prince is not totally objective anymore, when it comes to not banning Swabians and banning Franconians.
One of the Kaisers brothers insulted the Empress. A Swabian insulted the Kaiser himself, now, what is worse?

Hans, you're doing a fine job, and I think you will find out that you get the same problem as me. Nobles with big mouths, I know from experience it's best to make them shut up.

And regarding our re-unification, if the Kaiser wills it it can only be undone by Edicts, and I've yet to see them. It seems that things aren't as bad as some people want them to be ... I still don't want to see any Orthodox priests, former-Orthodox priest or Byzantine in Franconia tho.

Dietrich von Dassel:

My Lord, I'm sure that Kaiser Heinrich certainly wished for this much control over and freedom in the Diet. By now we'd probably all be worshipping him instead of Christ the Savior.

Just because the Kaiser wills something, people, doesn't mean that it is correct.

Ansehelm:
I doubt I said that. I don't want any re-unification, but if my brother wants it let others vote it down if they really must. Doesn't look like it does it, you're on your own laddy

Dietrich von Dassel:

Have you even pretended to be listening in the Diet? Do you honestly believe that I am a minority of one regarding this issue?

I fear for Franconia as well as the Reich if that is the case.

Ansehelm:
All I here around here is your voice, for the last hour. I don't see others around here bringing in Edicts to overthrow the Kaiser. I don't see others here, saying that the Kaiser should be stopped. They said one or two things, but you seem to have the biggest mouth of all. You think this is all about you, that you can do better, no laddie, you can't, believe me.

Athalwolf stands, glaring at Duke Ansehelm

I agree fully with Dietrich on all these cases.

Is at least one man allowed to speak his free will? This is not a collection of Duchys, but merely a Chamber which reinforces everything the Kaiser has said before? If something is wrong, we are not allowed to speak of it? If it was like that this EMpire would be a ruin.

Seeing as mein Kaiser is not here, I shall not speak ill of him, only I shall speak ill when he can hear me speak ill of him.

Ansehelm, we care not about petty alliances between houses. If you want to shut up nobles with big mouths, your mouth is a place to start. You are being blindly led off a cliff by mein Kaiser.

Dietrich von Dassel:

Ouch, bad timing Ansehelm.

Don't worry though, I'm sure that Athalwolf is an isolated case and tests will show that he is, in fact, mentally unstable and that nobody else will come to my defense. You will still win the day, my friend, don't worry.

AThalwolf looks, wide eyed at Dietrich. And splutters

How dare you!?

Crashing both fists on a table, Athalwolf stands.

I withdraw everything I have said. I am sorry mein Kaiser for somehow offending you. As long as this traitor is taken away. Send him to Outremer I say.

Dietrich von Dassel:

My apologies, Athalwolf. I was being sarcastic. I assure you I think much better of you than that.

You may think that the Kaiser is a terrible administrator and not worthy of taking the chancellorship but that is your opinion and you, I am afraid, are an insignificant Knight with not even a county to call his own. This Empire is ruled by laws and these laws are to be strictly obeyed, the Kaiser is free to exercise his rights unless appropriate legal action is taken against him, unless you can succeed in passing such such an action then I suggest you take Duke Ansehelm's advice and keep your overly sized mouth shut and stay in you place.

Dietrich von Dassel:

Big talk for a nobody from Outremer. How many infidels have you killed in this past term, Count Bresch?

Sir Dassel,

Your side has not yet proven to be bigger. Only louder. Not sure how that constitutes the "silent majority" you allude to.

I am glad that you laid forth your grievances against the Kaiser but you have yet again been unable to provide evidence. If you wish to convince 2/3 of this body that the Kaiser should not be allowed to take over the Chancellorship, you will need to lay out specific charges. When Ulrich Hummel was impeached, nobles brought a long and extensive list of complaints about his actions. You have yet to provide a more specific list of charges beyond, "I don't like what the Kaiser has done."

Let us review your list in detail shall we?:

Quote:

---

"I believe that the Kaiser is a worthless administrator."

---

Ok, how? What has he done or not done?

Quote:

---

"I believe that he is following policies mandated by the Byzantine Emperor rather than his own head."

---

Which ones? I have yet to see a single thing come out of the Kaiser that was from the Byzantine Emperor's design.

Quote:

---

"I believe that he has stifled criticism in this Diet to excess."

---

This one keeps coming up and I have to agree with Elberhard. I just don't see it. Are you referring to the banning of Fritz and Peter? Those two did specifically commit "Diet banning" offenses. Fritz was welcomed back when he apologized. Peter is welcome back as well when he apologizes for the un-necessary comment he made towards the Empress.

Quote:

---

"I believe that he entirely fails to grasp the magnitude of the rare Diet sessions and considers anyone who is not leader of an Empire unworthy of speaking to."

---

Again you provide no evidence of this what-so-ever. I see the Kaiser as being quite cognizant of the importance of Diet sessions as well as quite approachable.

Quote:

---

"I believe that his policies are not in line with the rest of the Electors' policies."

---

Which policies? We have expansionist policies all the time. I almost never hear complaints in here when there is a call for us to take more land.

Quote:

---

"Therefore, I do not think that someone whom the majority of the people disagrees with should be leading us."

---

And here is where I think the weakest part of your argument lies. I have yet to see you provide a real majority. Sure, there seems to be a vocal contingent that comes in here and seems to be reading off of the same play book. I see more of the "appearance of a majority" instead of a real working majority. Of course the elections will bare this out.

Your election planks from your initial campaign announcement are made weaker with the use of the "some people say" argument. Any of us can say, "well, some people say (insert opinion here)." Your whole campaign can basically be boiled down to "I have heard that people don't like what the Kaiser does." Thats it? Thats all you have? You have heard that people don't like what the Kaiser does? Who? And what actions? You wish for us to turn over the reigns of the Reich to you when you can not seem to provide anything constructive. All I have seen is speculation and conjecture.

If you wish to be successful in this endeavor, than I am afraid that you will have to do more than organize a parade of yes-men to come through here and loudly bang their fists in unison with yours. I'll admit your faction does seem to be bloody well organized but I have yet to see it constitute a working majority.

Count Dieter does bring up a good point however. Even though Swabia now has a county to spare, you are not even a Count. You ask us to give you the reigns of the Reich when you don't even have the experience of running a County. Your running on the Kaiser's perceived lack of experience so I think it is fair to bring up your own lack of experience.

Dietrich von Dassel:

Quote:

---

Ok, how? What has he done or not done?

---

Rome, which happens to be his domain, as well as Italy, have seen continued discontent among the populace despite the fact that the Kaiser with his supposed high authority has been personally there to calm it down.

Quote:

---

Which ones? I have yet to see a single thing come out of the Kaiser that was from the Byzantine Emperor's design.

---

Oh come now, don't be so blind. Do you honestly expect the Byzantine Emperor to bow down to Siegfried's wishes like that?

Quote:

---

This one keeps coming up and I have to agree with Elberhard. I just don't see it. Are you referring to the banning of Fritz and Peter? Those two did specifically commit "Diet banning" offenses. Fritz was welcomed back when he apologized. Peter is welcome back as well when he apologizes for the un-necessary comment he made towards the Empress.

---

Mmhm.

In his time Kaiser Siegfried has banned no less than three people from the Diet. In all the previous years of the Reich I can only count two Electors receiving the same penalty. In addition I have been threatened by the pathetic Duke Ansehelm with banning if I do not shut my trap. It seems to be a common practice nowadays.

Quote:

---

Again you provide no evidence of this what-so-ever. I see the Kaiser as being quite cognizant of the importance of Diet sessions as well as quite approachable.

---

Bullcrap. This is the second Diet Session in a row he's missed. I'm sure he can put his "important negotiations" off by a measly five days. And I'm sure that he's approachable to you, you being his lapdog and all.

Quote:

---

And here is where I think the weakest part of your argument lies. I have yet to see you provide a real majority. Sure, there seems to be a vocal contingent that comes in here and seems to be reading off of the same play book. I see more of the "appearance of a majority" instead of a real working majority. Of course the elections will bare this out.

---

All I'm asking is to let the *#%!ing people decide!!! Is that too much?!

Quote:

---

Count Dieter does bring up a good point however. Even though Swabia now has a county to spare, you are not even a Count. You ask us to give you the reigns of the Reich when you don't even have the experience of running a County. Your running on the Kaiser's perceived lack of experience so I think it is fair to bring up your own lack of experience.

---

Chancellor Matthias was first elected as a squire and an absentee Count in Outremer, so don't even try that argument with me.

Alright, lets go through these:

Quote:

---

Rome, which happens to be his domain, as well as Italy, have seen continued discontent among the populace despite the fact that the Kaiser with his supposed high authority has been personally there to calm it down.

---

There are many factors for why populations are happy or not. If you were a governor, you might realize that. That is all you have? Some people in Rome are unhappy? I am sure there can be a deeper analysis done as to why they are unhappy but you seem reluctant to provide one. You just use examples without analysis to support your point

Quote:

---

Oh come now, don't be so blind. Do you honestly expect the Byzantine Emperor to bow down to Siegfried's wishes like that?

---

I expect the Byzantine Emperor to read the writing on the wall. I am confident that he will find that it will be better to work with us than alone.

Quote:

---

In his time Kaiser Siegfried has banned no less than three people from the Diet. In all the previous years of the Reich I can only count two Electors receiving the same penalty. In addition I have been threatened by the pathetic Duke Ansehelm with banning if I do not shut my trap. It seems to be a common practice nowadays.

---

Lets see. Wolfgang tried to foment revolution. Fritz insulted the Empress after he had been warned. Peter called the Empress something when he knew it would result in his banning. Sorry, I don't see anything out of line yet with what the Kaiser/Prince have done. As for Ansehelm, he can't ban you so don't let your self be goaded. I have yet to see you do something "ban-able" so I think you have nothing to worry about.

Quote:

---

Bullcrap. This is the second Diet Session in a row he's missed. I'm sure he can put his "important negotiations" off by a measly five days. And I'm sure that he's approachable to you, you being his lapdog and all.

---

Ah I had hoped we could avoid ad-hominum attacks. I guess I was wrong. Yes I would love to have the Kaiser back as well. But he is working on something that the whole Reich will benefit from should we accept it.

Quote:

---

All I'm asking is to let the *#%!ing people decide!!! Is that too much?!

---

For claiming to be a populist, you and your group are not doing much to stimulate healthy debate in the Diet. Your not just asking to have us "let the people decide." Your asking us to over-ride the Kaiser's prerogative for a Chancellorship. And if you want to convince some of us, you'll have to provide more evidence than you have.

Quote:

---

Chancellor Matthias was first elected as a squire and an absentee Count in Outremer, so don't even try that argument with me.

---

I don't see how you can compare yourself to Count Matthias. He was also Count of a territory in Europe in the time that you stated. Again, I fear you are mis-representing things to cover up for your own relative lack of experience. If you wish to be Chancellor, you are going to have to show more experience than you currently have.

So Sir Dassel, what would you say to dropping the ad-hominum attacks and continuing this fruitful discussion?

Dietrich von Dassel:

The continuation of this discussion is as pointless as banging your head on a stone wall hoping it will break. The Kaiser is incompetent and does not care for the people and either you are choosing not to see it or simply fail to see it entirely.

I am sorry that you seem to believe that providing evidence to your arguments is "pointless". If you wish to have us agree with you, and over-ride the Kaiser's prerogative, I am afraid that you might have to provide more substance than you have now. All I have gotten from you is fear. Some people in here seem afraid. Well, bold steps require that we act despite our fears.

And I simply disagree with your characterization of the Kaiser as incompetent and uncaring for the people. I know my lack of agreement with you is disappointing but at least I engage you in debate and admit my opinion to your face instead of telling you to "shut up" like some in here have done.

Smashing his fist down on the bench after watching the exchange between Jan and Dietrich.

Christ this is frustrating to watch!!!

I think everyone needs to keep in mind that this reunification process will be a series of compromises and negotiated points.

As the Prinz has stated, only once the terms and conditions of this deal are presented by our returning Kaiser can we really see what we will have to deal with.

Glancing around making deliberate eye contact with the Dukes then a number of other nobles, Arnold pauses.

Now let me ask you an open ended question gentlemen.

If you were the Byzantines Lords and you were asked to subjugate yourselves to a foreign ruler, what would YOU ask in compensation?

What would your clergyman want as payment to cast aside the differences in their religious beliefs to allow this to actually happen on a religious level?

What would your own Emperor ask for, in order to become a deputy?

A marriage alliance is one thing…reunification is an entirely different matter all together.

Think on it my fellow nobles… THINK on it for just a moment.

Land, armies, titles, positions they will all be a topic of discussion and all are potential pieces to be bartered, traded and exchanged to make this deal work.

I can hardly believe the Byzantines will simply say…”Ok fair enough” and simply agree.

The Kaiser will have to table the deal before us…then we can see what has been agreed and I’m totally sure some of it will be unsavoury for some if most of us.

Jan does not react one bit to Arnold's fist smashing.

Duke Arnold,

I too am curious as to what the details would be. But we will see. If it is something we don't like, we will simply defeat the re-unification CA. I have confidence that the Byzantines will see the obvious benefits of re-unifying with us. The Prince has laid out that it will be us who will be in the primary power position in that relationship. If that turns out to be the case, then I will support that measure whole-heartedly.

You ask what we would do if we were in their position but we are not them. We are the ones who have stretched this great Reich across Europe and into the Levant. And we are the ones who are setting the terms. As it should be.

King Jan,

Why, if we are in such a strong position, is the Kaiser travelling to Constantinople? Why isn’t the Byzantine Head of State coming here?

Turning to the rest of the Diet.

The politics are running at full speed gentlemen, and the subtle indications are that this negotiation is not being conducted from such a powerful position as we may all think.

Turning back to King Jan

Would you be willing to relinquish your position to a Byzantine Lord and follow his orders King Jan?

Duke Arnold,

Sometimes it is beneficial to let the other person "save face". We are the ones who are going to be in the primary power position so if that means sending the Kaiser over to negotiate that personally, then so be it.

And I am not aware that any one of us will be asked to relinquish anything to the Byzantines except Prince Elberhard. And he has already made clear that he will give up being heir so that it can be the Kaiser's son. From what Elberhard said, no one here but him is relinquishing their position so I am not worried about it.

As for my position, I serve at the pleasure of the Kaiser. If he wishes for someone else to have this position, all he would have to do is ask for my resignation and I would give it without hesitation.

So, unless the details of the re-unification CA show that some of us will have to give up our positions, I am not going to worry about it. I trust the Kaiser to negotiate us a favorable settlement and I trust this body to defeat that settlement if it proves unpalatable.

In a somewhat sarcastic tone, but not overly so.

Well then, everything’s just perfect. I think I'm going to go and pick some roses this afternoon and woo myself a wife.

Handing a parchment to the Diet scribe, Arnold then address the Diet.

Nobles of the Reich, please note Lorenz Zirn is now hereby named Count of Budapest, until such time as he %#@$ it up, loses it or I take it from him!!

God save the Kaiser!!!

Matthias's expression grows more grim as the Diet goes on. He begins coughing, raking spasms that shake him and render him unable to speak. Finally, it subsides and he speaks in a rasping whisper, far from his usual mellifluous tones.

So. . .we have a Kaiser who is absent but who is going to be Chancellor, negotiating a treaty we know little about and which hasn't been presented to this body for a vote. On top of that, the Reich will be trying to seize several military targets on multiple fronts while fending off our usual enemies. At the same time we will be trying to unify two Churches and two Empires, both of which have been split for centuries, Orthodoxy and Catholicism for 300 years and the Empires for almost a thousand.

This is hubris. I have been the Chancellor for a long time, we have been victorious, but the margin for error is paper thin. One wrong move, one lost battle or a failed negotiation and the flood gates could open.

This is all happening too quickly, we are trying to do too much too soon. I hope I am wrong, I hope this is successful, but sometimes one cannot rebuild what has been destroyed. In our efforts to replicate the glories of the past, we may instead fall victim to it's tragedies.

A coughing fit again takes Matthias. He hunches over for a brief time. Rising up with great effort, he wipes his mouth. Blood can be seen on his hand and lips. He speaks again, but his words can barely be heard.

This is a dangerous matter we have before us, it is unfortunate that this body seems more interested in trading insults and threats than actual debate. We must try to maintain civility or we will lose the forest for the trees.

Matthias goes back to his seat and slumps down in it.

Arnold

What seems to be a consequence of this diplomatic mission to Constantinople is that we are simply waiting to see what happens.

Having recently re-read the military history of the Reich, I can confirm we have not conducted a four front war since the very earliest times of the Reich under Kaiser Heinrich.

I'm still at a loss to understand how the Orthodox and Catholic churches are some how casting their differences aside to seriously consider this.

It all seems too contrived.

I've not seen any indication that the Cardinals would make any change to their beliefs. But apparently the Orthodox world is in a very accommodating mood and might simply agree to cast aside their beliefs in favour of ours.

*Fritz von Kastilien returns to the chamber after a day's absence. He sits with his scribe and nods on occasion, slaps his forehead, pulls his hand over his eyes, covers his mouth, and finally puts his head on the table for a moment. Then he looks up, thanks the scribe and stands.*

My friends, I hear I have missed much talk in the Diet. I apologise for my absence, and apologise for the floodgates of rhetoric my words seems to have opened.

What are the issues we are discussing, and how are they best resolved?

First, the reunification of the Roman Empire. This is a noble goal, but at best a dream at this point. Debate is pointless, since we know nothing of Siegfried's negotiations, know nothing of Byzantium's position on this, are not united ourselves, and can only posture in this or that way. There is simply too much unknown or unresolved to even begin to be constructive.

Second, the Chancellorship of the Kaiser. With the seconding of Dietrich's amendment, we have done all we can do. Now the electors have a choice where there was none before, and they must choose according to their conscience.

Finally, Byzantium's influence on Siegfried. I will be the first to say it has gone too far, but what good does it do to go over and over that point? There is little more that could be said. Instead, it is time we electors considered the Edicts and Amendments before us, and made up our minds.

*Fritz seats himself wearily*

Ansehelm:
And still everyone is firing lose threats, sad really.
"Oh, the Kaiser isn't good at his job."
"Oh, I don't want to re-unify."

If you don't want something, make an edict or so. All you can do is shout, but you don't have the guts to make things happen. It's sad, I didn't go all the way to Moscow and back to speak with a bunch of pansies.

Arnold

Who the $*^£% are you actually talking to Ansehelm?

Ansehelm:
Everyone who says the Kaiser wouldn't make a good chancellor, while they themselves don't even have the guts to propose a proper edict to do something about it.
And if you don't like the re-unification, make an edict stating:
The alliance with Byzantium will be ended.
or simpler
There will be no re-unification.

If you don't want it, and the Kaiser does the only way to stop it is an Edict. And if the Chancellor doesn't follow the Edicts impeach him.

Matthias speaks from his seat.

I do not wish to see our alliance with the Byzantines ended Duke Ansehelm. After all I was the one who negotiated the marriage between Kaiser Siegfried and Empress Theodora. The alliance has benefited both Empires, but I simply feel that we are progressing too quickly with this "reunification", something quite beyond a typical alliance.

I am confused, Duke Ansehelm, you have expressed doubt, to say the least, about the Orthodox Christians, yet you have no opposition to the Kaiser's plan?

I am also confused by your insistence that your relatively peaceful walk to Moscow somehow makes your insights better than others'. Many people fought bigger battles and more of them during the time you were away. It was brave of you to lead the Crusade, but your belittlement of everyone else's contributions to the Reich serves no purpose.

Leaning forward on his elbows.

I'm not about to put an edict in play until I see what the terms and conditions of this reunification are Ansehelm.

Your comment...

"If you don't want it, and the Kaiser does the only way to stop it is an Edict. And if the Chancellor doesn't follow the Edicts impeach him."

...is entirely inaccurate.

There will be no unification unless the Diet votes on it!! The Prinz has clearly stated how things will be managed when it comes to this plan of his.

It will be the Kaiser's job to outline everything to us before we vote this reunification into affect OR not.

Given this will not likely happen at this Diet session I expect there to be an emergency session called when the time finally comes to debate this with real information.