Civil War in Libya

Egypt has an air force of what? Some 500 planes and more than 100 attack helicopters.

The Saudi air force is smaller, but still very potent.

Their combined amount of planes over Libya - 0.

The Arabic League urged for intervention - so how come they leave the west with the bill? It is after all their back yard. I guess they are not ready to deal with the civilian casualties bound to happen, or maybe they just prefer someone else to fund the whole deal.

Of course, I do not even want to imagine the mess the arabs would cause if they did intervene. It is after all not the most diciplined culture around. So for them to handle a major flight operation.. Oh well, could add some fun factor at the very least.

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Originally Posted by Shibumi

Of course, I do not even want to imagine the mess the arabs would cause if they did intervene. It is after all not the most diciplined culture around. So for them to handle a major flight operation.. Oh well, could add some fun factor at the very least.

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Oh dear.

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Originally Posted by Dâriûsh

Oh dear.

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We'd need a control group of what Arab troops get up to to compare.

I suppose we've got the Arab Lybian snipers shooting civillians. 16 dead yesterday in one town.
And the Syrians have opened up with live bullets. I think the same thing happened in Barhain.
Egypt? A few hundred died there.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Dâriûsh

Oh dear.

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Mate, you are preaching to the choir.

But yes - I do believe Americans are more disciplined than the Arabs. See, they in an orderly fashion collected the fingers. Arab troops would probably have scattered them all over the place.

Jokes aside - I do believe the best thing to happen in Libya would be Arab boots on the ground and Arab jets controlling the skies. West only helping with intel and logistics, ie, refueling planes and AWACS as well as some SAS teams to paint remaining AA positions (if any). West could also help with the humanitarian aid needed. As an example, the women refugees are pretty much up for grabs, mass rapes have been reported. This is thanks to the charming cultural trait that a woman on her own are anyones property.

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Originally Posted by Shibumi

Mate, you are preaching to the choir.

But yes - I do believe Americans are more disciplined than the Arabs. See, they in an orderly fashion collected the fingers. Arab troops would probably have scattered them all over the place.

Jokes aside - I do believe the best thing to happen in Libya would be Arab boots on the ground and Arab jets controlling the skies. West only helping with intel and logistics, ie, refueling planes and AWACS as well as some SAS teams to paint remaining AA positions (if any). West could also help with the humanitarian aid needed. As an example, the women refugees are pretty much up for grabs, mass rapes have been reported. This is thanks to the charming cultural trait that a woman on her own are anyones property.

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Ya, but they know we will eventually will put boots, language always says a lot and rethoric has changed from 'course not' to 'we just might' if you read between the lines.

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Originally Posted by Shibumi

The Arabic League urged for intervention

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Actually, they urged for a no-fly zone.

Which means bombing.

Good thing they didn't ask for bombing then, they might have gotten a nuclear strike.

What Amr Moussa (sp??) objected to, was presumably the initial bombing of Tripoli, which was necessary given the AA installations in the city - thus a part of the NFZ.

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Originally Posted by Idaho

There is some doubt about the stories of Gadaffi's mercenary hordes. Libya is a more complex place than many think.

Mercenaries or Libyans from Fezzan?

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Idaho replied to one of my posts in the Bahrain thread, but his input is very relevant here.

I concede to Idaho that I gave the rebel propaganda department’s statements on supposedly African mercenaries more credit than they deserved. Nor was I critical enough of the sources on these “mercenaries”.

I know that there were mercenary contract adverts in newspapers in several countries, but it seems the rebels are now rounding up every dark-skinned man, Libyan or not, and presenting them to the world press as captured African mercenaries.

It reminds me of Afghanistan during the liberation in 2001. Locals would round up every Arab speaker, native Arab-Afghan or foreigner, and turn them in as “Al-Qaeda terrorists” to get a reward.

I'm not buying that one. I agree that the mercenary scare appears to be largely inaccurate, but I have seen many black skinned rebel fighters.

https://img51.imageshack.us/img51/62...ibyanrebel.jpg

The stalemate has been broken in the east; with the aid of what has been described as "massive" allied aistrikes, the rebels recapture the city of Ajdabiya; a city with about 100,000 inhabitants.

They are, or will soon, head for Brega - and probably Ras Lanuf after that. The loyalists should be unable to move up reinforcing tanks to the front, so I assume these two cities will fall without too much trouble.

The big question then, is Sirte. If the population there is largely loyal, and are willing to put up a fight - then it could become a tricky place, not the least given the UN mandate of 'protecting civilians'. If it isn't, then one could expect it to fall - and the road to Misrata will be relatively "open".

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Originally Posted by Viking

They are, or will soon, head for Brega - and probably Ras Lanuf after that. The loyalists should be unable to move up reinforcing tanks to the front, so I assume these two cities will fall without too much trouble.

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Yes, Brega is a much smaller city (a few thousand, not 100,000) and it is off of the main road, not straddling it. It is therefore a much poorer defensive location than Ajdabiya. Ras Lanuf isn't really even a town, just an oil facility with some homes for workers. It's an even worse defensive location. So, both of those aren't likely to be serious hurdles for the rebels. Like you said, Sirte is the real test. If they can take Sirte, there are no other significant towns before they reach Misrata, which appears to be holding out adequately. If they can't, this will be a very long struggle.

In an almost unbelievable twist of fate, the United States is now fighting in support of not only al-Qaeda fighters, but the same al-Qaeda fighters that fought against our troops in Iraq.

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Libyan rebel commander admits his fighters have al-Qaeda links

Abdel-Hakim al-Hasidi, the Libyan rebel leader, has said jihadists who fought against allied troops in Iraq are on the front lines of the battle against Muammar Gaddafi's regime.

In an interview with the Italian newspaper Il Sole 24 Ore, Mr al-Hasidi admitted that he had recruited "around 25" men from the Derna area in eastern Libya to fight against coalition troops in Iraq. Some of them, he said, are "today are on the front lines in Adjabiya".

Mr al-Hasidi insisted his fighters "are patriots and good Muslims, not terrorists," but added that the "members of al-Qaeda are also good Muslims and are fighting against the invader".

His revelations came even as Idriss Deby Itno, Chad's president, said al-Qaeda had managed to pillage military arsenals in the Libyan rebel zone and acquired arms, "including surface-to-air missiles, which were then smuggled into their sanctuaries".

Mr al-Hasidi admitted he had earlier fought against "the foreign invasion" in Afghanistan, before being "captured in 2002 in Peshwar, in Pakistan". He was later handed over to the US, and then held in Libya before being released in 2008.

US and British government sources said Mr al-Hasidi was a member of the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group, or LIFG, which killed dozens of Libyan troops in guerrilla attacks around Derna and Benghazi in 1995 and 1996.

Even though the LIFG is not part of the al-Qaeda organisation, the United States military's West Point academy has said the two share an "increasingly co-operative relationship". In 2007, documents captured by allied forces from the town of Sinjar, showed LIFG emmbers made up the second-largest cohort of foreign fighters in Iraq, after Saudi Arabia.

Earlier this month, al-Qaeda issued a call for supporters to back the Libyan rebellion, which it said would lead to the imposition of "the stage of Islam" in the country.

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****. Just ****. :wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wal l::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall:

I hope all the "we are all democratic citizens of the world" bleeding hearts who pushed this **** are suitably pleased with themselves.

And this is just all kinds or awesome!

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'Al-Qaeda snatched missiles' in Libya

AL-QAEDA'S offshoot in North Africa has snatched surface-to-air missiles from an arsenal in Libya during the civil strife there, Chad's President says.

Idriss Deby Itno did not say how many surface-to-air missiles were stolen, but told the African weekly Jeune Afrique that he was "100 per cent sure" of his assertion.

"The Islamists of al-Qaeda took advantage of the pillaging of arsenals in the rebel zone to acquire arms, including surface-to-air missiles, which were then smuggled into their sanctuaries in Tenere," a desert region of the Sahara that stretches from northeast Niger to western Chad, Deby said in the interview.

"This is very serious. AQIM is becoming a genuine army, the best equipped in the region," he said.

His claim was echoed by officials in other countries in the region who said that they were worried that al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM) might have acquired "heavy weapons", thanks to the insurrection.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

In an almost unbelievable twist of fate, the United States is now fighting in support of not only al-Qaeda fighters, but the same al-Qaeda fighters that fought against our troops in Iraq.

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(IF true then) How exactly is that unbelievable? It seems exactly like how the same Mujahadeen that we armed to fight the Soviets have ended up fighting us in Afghanistan. It is hardly "unbelievable", more like...par for the course.

Anyway, our support or non-support of the revolution would not have changed the ability of AQIM to have grabbed those weapons, that was likely done long before our air support.

On the other hand, I am also more than a little surprised at how fast things went from "protecting civilians" to essentially supporting the revolution and regime change. I thought we would do the No fly zone and maybe throw some UN peacekeepers in between them like we did in Yugoslavia. I think this aversion to "putting boots on the ground" nixed that possibility and instead "they" thought it easier to just support the revolution rather than establish peace and help negotiate a settlement...

PJ - look at it on bright side.


Our expenses and lives spend on behalf of Muslim citizens will surely earn the West the respect of other Islamic nations, from dear befriended democracy Turkey to our trusted friends the Arab League. :idea:

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

In an almost unbelievable twist of fate, the United States is now fighting in support of not only al-Qaeda fighters, but the same al-Qaeda fighters that fought against our troops in Iraq.

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No, it's quite believable. You have found one AQ fighter among the rebels, with 25 others - among hundreds of thousands, if not millions of protesters across the country. Congrats. Perhaps you'll also come to the terrible realisation that whenever defending any country with military might, including your own, you'll also de facto be defending despicable people such rapist and paedophiles with the lifes of the soldiers as the ultimate price.

Let's also have a look at the source article for once, provided by Google translate

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"I've sent them about 25 - states Haqim -. Some have returned and are now on the front of Ajdabiya, they are patriots and good Muslims, not terrorists. I condemn the September 11 attacks, and those against innocent civilians in general. But members of al-Qaeda are also good Muslims and fight against the invader. " An ambiguous speech. Yet it is unusual to hear a man accused of joining al Qaeda call for the imposition of a no-fly zones and international raid against strongholds of the rais.

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who knows, is he sincere? That is, though, besides the point

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Shaven, long hair, jacket and blue jeans, Ali Faraj, 42, did not look like an extremist. The head of the Central Committee of Derna immediately puts the record straight: "I do not deny that there are groups of fighters, but they have links to al Qaeda." Faraj Ali then introduced the new Libya "multiparty constitution, tripartite division of powers." The New York Times, in a recent article, wrote that "the Islamic groups are collaborating with their counterparts to call for a secular democratic constitution." Hasad Imam Mansour, 47, is very popular. From 1998 to 2002 he served four years in the prison of Abu Dis. "Enemies of the West? Gadhafi has prevented us from studying in Europe, sending students to Africa. I would raise a wall with Africa and the West would open. Derna is an example of cultural integration and religious. " "I've never seen extremism in this region - explains Biasioco Sister Celeste, 77, in Libya since 1964. - Here the people are tolerant. We consider it a great family. " In the barracks, Colonel Naser Al Baraja, commander of the province of Derma, is working to coordinate efforts: "Our young people fighting on the front with us against a common enemy: Gaddafi." Al Hasad however, proved realistic: "If the war goes on and on it is likely that foreign extremists from entering our borders." "Intolerance? The best teacher in the school my child is a woman - replies Imam Mansour -. I would be happy to see a woman president of the new Libya. We are Muslims, but not extremists. "

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The Telegraph wants to scare people, and they've obviously managed to scare PJ, so congrats to them as well.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

PJ - look at it on bright side.


Our expenses and lives spend on behalf of Muslim citizens will surely earn the West the respect of other Islamic nations, from dear befriended democracy Turkey to our trusted friends the Arab League. :idea:

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Does anyone else think that the same Arab League who urged us to intervene will end up blaming us for intervening when it turns into a mess?

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

I am going to have to speak to Sarkozy about a bombing campaign over London on behalf of Cornwall. Nothing says re-election quite like scared, running Englishmen. Didn't even get to see any of that in this year's Six Nations, I need my annual quota.

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We're not afraid of you. Unlike the French, we in England are used to bombing.

Bombing footage

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

Does anyone else think that the same Arab League who urged us to intervene will end up blaming us for intervening when it turns into a mess?

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I don't think they really wanted us to intervene, merely to be seen to be asking us to intervene - fly a few planes in the empty sky and we can all say we did our best as the locals kill each other as God intended.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

We're not afraid of you. Unlike the French, we in England are used to bombing.

Bombing footage

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Better get used to bombing a bit more, 'cause I hear there's mass protests on the British streets. Ordinary Britons are getting fed up with the capitalism of the London kleptocracy.

A no-fly zone over Britain is getting closer as we speak. I hear (foreign minister) Juppé is mobilising that other instrument of global stability, the African Union, for support.

Let you Europeans take care of the No-Fly zone. You guys got the money to do it, so get to work.

:inquisitive:

We have money?

*hollers*

Hey, gaelic! We have money! Buy beer!

If the rebels win I think the "spoils" phase will answer the question of "Why doesn't X put boots on the ground?"

Ugly, messy and likely looonnng civil unrest.

So what exactly are we hoping for here... or to be exact what are western governments hoping for...

Are we hoping the rebels will go and take all of Libya... or do we hope they will only take towns that want rid of Gaddafi

What will happen if they make their way into pro-gaddafi areas and would we try to stop them if they start to go to far..... ?

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Originally Posted by Viking

No, it's quite believable. You have found one AQ fighter among the rebels, with 25 others - among hundreds of thousands, if not millions of protesters across the country. Congrats. Perhaps you'll also come to the terrible realisation that whenever defending any country with military might, including your own, you'll also de facto be defending despicable people such rapist and paedophiles with the lifes of the soldiers as the ultimate price.

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This is not about criminals incidentally benefitting from our actions, but the West launching missiles in direct support of people we're launching missiles against in Iraq and Afghanistan. It is insanity, and demonstrates how little we actually know about the people we are now obliged to protect in perpetuity. If you truly believe al-Qaeda is interested in civil participation in a secular, democratic Libya headed by a female president after this conflict is over, I've got some videos to show you on liveleak. I hope you've got a strong stomach.

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Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

:inquisitive:

We have money?

*hollers*

Hey, gaelic! We have money! Buy beer!

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Got enough to retire early so.....

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Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

:inquisitive:

We have money?

*hollers*

Hey, gaelic! We have money! Buy beer!

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Already headin to Tesco for a couple of slabs as we speak.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

This is not about criminals incidentally benefitting from our actions, but the West launching missiles in direct support of people we're launching missiles against in Iraq and Afghanistan. It is insanity, and demonstrates how little we actually know about the people we are now obliged to protect in perpetuity. If you truly believe al-Qaeda is interested in civil participation in a secular, democratic Libya headed by a female president after this conflict is over, I've got some videos to show you on liveleak. I hope you've got a strong stomach.

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I still only count 26 AQ members. Where are the rest?

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

Does anyone else think that the same Arab League who urged us to intervene will end up blaming us for intervening when it turns into a mess?

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In fairness to the members of the Arab League, they did wait 24 hours between urging us to bomb and denouncing us for bombing. Well, okay, maybe it was more like twelve hours. Who's counting anyway?

I guess it's normal for a forum troll like Colonel Gaddafi to confirm Godwin's law early and often:

Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi has called for an end to the "barbaric offensive" against Libya in a letter addressed to international powers meeting in London today. AFP reported that in the letter, Gaddafi likened the Nato-led air strikes to military campaigns launched by Adolf Hitler during World War II.

While I share most of PJ's reservations about our third simultaneous undeclared, unfunded war against an arab nation, I think the AQ connection sounds overblown and sensationalized. There are plenty of reasons to be wary of our new BFFs in Benghazi without invoking the universal boogeyman.