The Will of the Senate - out of character thread

Im perfectly fine with certain restrictions like one unit per ship and balanced legions. Indeed there really arent any restriction that have been set as game rules that i mind.

I am just a very efficient person and the way we are playing now is not very efficient. Indeed its more clumsy and inefficient.

I dont worry about rebels and sneak attacks from other factions because I prioritize auxilia buildings. That way every single settlement can defend itself and if such a dire need arises every single settlment can contribute to defense. I can do this because of the amount of settlements ive captured combined with the fact that i only keep those armies which are necessary. I know my own capabilities as a player and the capabilities of my troops and i squeeze all of the potential out of them both for fast and decisive expansion. I look at our armies now and I feel that we have easily two times more troops than we actually need to fight a war against both Gaul and Carthage. Then I look at our cities now and see that they are horridly incapable of even defending themselves let alone contribute to a war effort.

Ultimately. Yes we are overstretched as it is because nobody listened to me a few weeks ago when i warned people that we should be building auxilia buildings. Now we can barely even support a war effort beyond our borders because our recruitment rate is abismal and reinforcements are few and far away. The only reason we can conquer both Gaul and Carthage now is because of our huge armies. Just like a bear can get through the winter on its excess fat so too can our armies get through Gaul and Carthage on their excess men. But after that we desperately need auxilia buildings to be built. Otherwise we wont at all be able to expand any more.

People are calling for a massive fleet to be built and I have no idea why. Its completely over the top and unnecessary. People want to strike Carthage directly which is more than foolish. If people actually listened to my plan and took two minutes to think about it they would realize that my plan doesnt even require a fleet as large as we currently have to successfully ferry a consular army to afrika. But for some reason people have just latched onto the idea of a massive and completely unnecessary fleet that will only further drain our treasury. The fleet can be added to the list of other military overexpenditures.

Youre right in being afraid of the 10000 denari per turn that the AI is getting. But thats all the more reason that we need to attack now and not sit around and play little games like building fleets and raiding little Gaulish villages. Sure itd be a tough fight but its better to let them have 10,000 denari for the finally 2 years of their existence than it is to let them have 10,000 denari for the next 10 years. At that point itll be even more difficult to take and hold Gaul because the cities will be bigger and theyll have access to better troops.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shifty157

Yeah im rather surprised how most everyone seems to be leaning toward an overly cautious strategy. I find the pace of expansion rather unnecessarily slow considering the size of our armies and what they are capable of.

I think its very reasonable in the next five years to conquer both Gaul and Carthage but I guess thats just me. Indeed if this were my game I would have already conquered Gaul and Carthage and invaded Greece and my economy would be doing a hell of alot better because of the number of territories id have and because I dont insist on guarding every square inch of land with a full legion.

---

I can't speak for others, but I full agree we could do both if we really wanted to. However, I vote against it for two reasons.

First, I'm trying to role-play my character given his traits, Roman history and events in our own game. We're already far larger than Rome was in 260 BC. For whatever reason, I think my character doesn't see Carthage as much of a legitimate threat and I play it as such. I can't justify saying conquest for conquest's sake, since the Romans at least had a reason for it each time. Perhaps if people got creative in 'engineering' a reason (like econ21 did) my character would be more receptive.

Second, I think we need to enjoy being small for a while. I always enjoy the early game in every campaign I play, no matter the mod. Once your empire becomes large it starts being a major pain to manage it and I know many people, like me, end up abandoning them before they actually finish the game. I love this PBM idea and I'd like to keep it interesting and managable for as long as possible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by econ21

On another topic, when do people want the Marian reforms to happen?

---

I say we'll know it when we need it. 220 sounds reasonable to me, but let's not set a difinitive date. I have a feeling we'll get to a point where it will either occur on its own (preferable) or we'll be getting tired of the pre-Marian units and be ready for a change. This is yet another reason why I'm loathe to expand too fast. I think it would feel wrong to control half the world with Hastati.

As econ21 said, shifty157, everyone has their own style of play. I like to play 'inefficiently' as it gives the AI advantages and makes the game harder and more 'realistic'. If you get elected I wish you lots of fun in playing it as you want it played.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Craterus

I'll take the assassin. Where is he posted?

---

He has a bio in the Library now.

It's a tight election so far - I make it 10 influence-adjusted votes for each of the three candidates! We don't have any contingencies for a tied vote - I'm inclined to let actual (none-influenced adjusted) votes be the tie breaker in such a case.

Hmm.. I'd like to join this as a player in the 'lower level' ?!

If I'm allowed in though, are all the rules and things needed to be in written in the second post? Thanks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by x-dANGEr

Hmm.. I'd like to join this as a player in the 'lower level' ?!

If I'm allowed in though, are all the rules and things needed to be in written in the second post? Thanks.

---

Welcome x-dANGEr! ~:wave:

Yes, the second post has pretty much everything. We're making some stuff up as we go along but the key points are in that post.

Being in the Lower House requires that you install the mod as detailed in the second post. I wonder if you could do that and then post back here, at which point, I'll assign you an avatar? I'll probably have to give you the one I just assigned to Zomby_woof, so before I disappoint him, I want to make sure you can get the mod working. Some others have had problems.

In the meantime, you can vote in the elections and on the 270 motions. The polls are only open for a day, then next First Consul will play for 20 turns.

Phew.. That was a long 6 hours DL festival.

At all costs, am getting my CDs this evening, so I can reply to you for sure tomorrow.

Though, I need some clarifications, like:

It says to install the naval mod, I need to install 1.3, then 1.5 and after that the Platinum mod, the it. Is 1.3 a necessity?

And, I can make some use of the Roman Armies rules clarification.. Like, what do you mean with allied troops (Auxiliaries)?

Thanks.

Shifty, all the things you say about what we could do are true. But then, blitzing the map would mean the game would be over after 4 or 5 consuls. As we are atm, this PBEM has got more people involved and kept more people involved than any other, and I've been doing these from the beginning.

I, like Tincow & DDW am trying to RP as a Roman, fearful of expansion and foreign adventures. As for the 10,000 denarii giving the AI an advantage, well they need all the help they can get, right? My most fun playing TW games has been when its got really difficult, when the game stretches me & I'm hanging on.

But everyone is different, and like others have said, if and when you get elected Consul, you'll be able to play it your style ~:)

As for the Marian reforms, I find they always come wayyyyyy to early, like 100+ years. I wouldn't be sorry to not see them till the 2nd century BC.

Finally, I will be going away Friday morning, not coming back till Monday evening, so can who-ever is Consul make sure I'm nice and safe in some behind-the-lines fort, thanks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by x-dANGEr

Is 1.3 a necessity?

---

Yes, I believe it is.

Quote:

---

And, I can make some use of the Roman Armies rules clarification.. Like, what do you mean with allied troops (Auxiliaries)?

---

One of the nice things about RTR is that each faction has so called AOR (area of recruitment?) troops that it can recruit - they are local troops that are available to recruit before a captured settlement is fully assimilated[1]. At the moment, we only have Italian AOR troops available- decent spearmen, swordsmen, skirmishers and cavalry. Now we have some Gaulish settlements, we will eventually be able to recruit Gaulish troops, including ultimately some Gaulish auxiliaries proper. In Sicily, we may eventually get some Libyan spearmen. IIRC, there are some regions where you can't recruit any allied troops.

Mercenaries would also count as allied troops, although some of these are very expensive.

If you look in the Senate library you will see some examples of armies that broadly follow our house rules.

[1]Assimilation is modelled by building auxilia buildings: IIRC it goes

Auxilia 1 (no troops)
=> Auxilia 2 (basic AOR troops)
=> Auxilia 3 (all AOR troops)
=> Provincial governorship (all AOR troops + basic core troops)
=> Roman citizenship (all troops)

The whole process takes time and in practice means that you can't immediately recruit in conquered areas, slowing down player expansion.

Marian Reforms – we should try to mod it so it doesn’t appear too early. They normally do and mean the Romans start fielding uber units before the other factions get a look in…..however, those are in normal games and not the slow paced PBM we’re constructing here…

….on that note, like others I’m purely RP’ing my character. I don’t have “traits” though so I’m having to just think of they mind-set of the Spy.

Quite easy as I LRP a Drow throughout the year in a fest system….so I’m quite used to the evil/sneaky/underhand characterisation.

Just to say that my character has been pressing for expansion in certain key areas since the start – Cisalpine Gaul for example from the start and more recently Carthage – he has his own reasons for this and I’ve actually considered a long-term agenda which is not apparent to the other players as yet (assuming he survives Africa!).

In Character he’s appalled at the cautious stand of the Senate, in particular this session (have a post pending about that), but OOC I understand that we may be deliberately hamstringing ourselves in order to make a more interesting game in the long run.

I’m very happy with the way the players are RP’ing the campaign via the Senate and I’m pretty certain that we wouldn’t play our own campaigns in this manner – myself included. We’d certainly be much more like Shifty suggests and expand on multiple fronts early on…but not in this game.

We’ve got to justify any expansion with in-game terms, and I for one think that’s just fantastic!

Welcome x-dANGEr,

I can confirm 1.3 is a necessary step in the patching process. 1.2 is not required, but HIGHLY recommended.

As to the Marian reforms, I am not inclined one way or the other and will go with the majority.
It is a point to note that the marian reforms also cause changes for most of the non-roman factions. Many of them will be able to recruit legion-like units as well and that can get nasty. One of my campaigns I was very overextended, reforms happened and several turns later my hastati were getting slaughtered by Pontus legionaire-clones. Took me 25 turns to get my first legionaires to the front. My pre-reform armies had been decimated by the computer in the meantime :laugh4:

Technical note : the next version of the M&N mod might not be savegame compatible as it will include the cognomen mod. Anyone who thinks about joining the lower house eventually may want to download the M&N mod soon. The good news is that RTR PE 1.6 will most likely be a 200 MB download instead of a 450 MB download. RTR PE 1.4 wasn't compressed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Death the destroyer of worlds

Welcome x-dANGEr,

I can confirm 1.3 is a necessary step in the patching process. 1.2 is not required, but HIGHLY recommended.

As to the Marian reforms, I am not inclined one way or the other and will go with the majority.
It is a point to note that the marian reforms also cause changes for most of the non-roman factions. Many of them will be able to recruit legion-like units as well and that can get nasty. One of my campaigns I was very overextended, reforms happened and several turns later my hastati were getting slaughtered by Pontus legionaire-clones. Took me 25 turns to get my first legionaires to the front. My pre-reform armies had been decimated by the computer in the meantime :laugh4:

Technical note : the next version of the M&N mod might not be savegame compatible as it will include the cognomen mod. Anyone who thinks about joining the lower house eventually may want to download the M&N mod soon. The good news is that RTR PE 1.6 will most likely be a 200 MB download instead of a 450 MB download. RTR PE 1.4 wasn't compressed.

---

So you're saying I need to DL more things. Links, please?

I've DL-ed:

RTR Platinum 1.4
RTR patch to 1.5
Naval Mod
Map fix
Patch 1.3
Patch 1.5

All ready to install on RTW as soon as I get it. Do I need anything else?

Thanks again :) (And sorry for being very-newbie-ish - My first try with RTR ~:) )

EDIT:

Why don't we make a Usergroup for The Will of the Senate PBM? Anyone who joins the PBM will join the group, and that's just about it. Better yet, each PMB campaign makes it's own group, and we turn the Throne Room to a gallery, where you see information bout groups, and by that decide to join them or not. Each group can only has one thread where it described how the group is working, how active is it and how fun is it. Any thoughts?

RTW 1.2 patch download :

http://www.strategyinformer.com/pc/r...patch/222.html

As I said before, this is probably not necessary, but I HIGHLY recommend patching to 1.2 before patching to 1.3. I've looked and looked, but nowhere could I find a definitive answer that it was not required and the 1.3 patch is officially the 1.2->1.3 patch.

For the rest, see the install instructions in :

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...29&postcount=2

I HIGHLY recommend making a backup of RTW 1.5 once you've patched up to there. This will save you much grief if the install process goes wrong later on.

You can try out if it works by downloading the latest savegame from :

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/

savegame : 270-2-start.zip

Upload location :

http://www.totalwar.org/Downloads/Up.../pbmupload.php

Kindly not forget to zip files before uploading.

On another note :
I recommend the next first consul to remind the other players every time he asks them to play that the have to activate the 4tpy mod BEFORE saving as otherwise the dates will get messed up more than they are already.

I will keep a vanilla RTW 1.5 anyway to play MP. You know, am more of a MP player than a SP one.

Looking at Motion 5.5, this raises an interesting point... we require 2/3 approval to pass a rule change. Does that mean 2/3 of voters or 2/3 of weighted votes? Not that I think it will get 2/3 either way, but I'm curious.

Also, if I am elected but Motion 5.5 does not pass; would it be possible for me to propose a 24 hour referendum on the matter? It is a somewhat fundamental Motion for my platform and would put me in an awkward position if I were elected but the Motion did not pass. It would be like electing FLYdude while passing a Motion forbidding a landing in Africa. Perhaps some opinions would change once the results of the election are final.

Voting is weighted, so 2/3 of the weighted votes. (I only referred to unweighted votes as the most democratic tie breaker.)

On motion 5.5, wouldn't enslavement of Gauls be almost as good for your project as extermination? It still adds to our coffers, looks like raiding and also adds to our existing settlements (you might want to make sure we have generals in the settlements you particularly want to benefit from the influx of slaves - personally, I'd recommend Capua and Ancona, as well as Roma, of course). Enslavement might be better than extermination if the intention is to let Gaul to survive and/or to repeat the exercise later. IIRC, we don't have a houserule against demolishing structures, so you are already free to do that.

But if FLYdude or shifty157 were elected with a motion not to invade Carthage, they would have to follow the motion or face the wrath of the Senate. In the latter contingency, I'd certainly vote for them to be removed from office in the mid-term (2/3 majority required). Of course, we don't have such a motion tabled, so that case is purely hypothetical (voting against a motion mandating an invasion of Carthage is not the same as voting for a motion not to inavde Carthage).

We don't really have a contingency for an emergency referendum at the moment, but there is always the mid-term session if you absolutely have to exterminate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by econ21

you might want to make sure we have generals in the settlements you particularly want to benefit from the influx of slaves - personally, I'd recommend Capua and Ancona, as well as Roma, of course

---

Don't forget the settlements in Cispine Gaul. We really need roads there, especially in Jenuensis.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Death the destroyer of worlds

Don't forget the settlements in Cispine Gaul. We really need roads there, especially in Jenuensis.

---

Good point - you might even pull governors out of all settlements but one (Jenuensis or wherever) if really want that settlement to grow.

I'm wondering, what does a: mean?

Praetorian Army
First Consul Army
Legion

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...29&postcount=2

I also like to advise to read the senate library.

Simon, I wouldn't get too hung-up on voting issues just yet. Anyway, I like the ambiguity, it allows more than one side to claim not only victory, but also the moral high ground. Think GWBs first election and the Florida result. Makes for great politics ~;)

I have another proposal for you econ21. As these questions creep up again and again I think it would be wise to move the information in post #1 of the in character thread and post #2 of the out of character thread to a more visible place.
Suggestions :
a) move it to the senate library (rather full already)
b) move it to a stickied thread - the W of the S - members and motions
c) move it to a stickied thread - the W of the S - rules and faqs
d) a combination of all three options or something else entirely
What do you think ?

Also it might be wise to notify the senators that a new senate session has started. Many upper house members don't visit very often and have the bad luck to miss the entire debate. What do you think ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Death the destroyer of worlds

As these questions creep up again and again I think it would be wise to move the information in post #1 of the in character thread and post #2 of the out of character thread to a more visible place.

---

To be honest, I think we would have to answer questions again and again wherever we put the information. When people are starting out, they often can't absorb everything laid out in a reference style. I think the two posts are fairly visible and in logical places. As you say, the library is pretty full up. A FAQ thread might be best but I feel we are reaching out limit in terms of threads devoted to this PBM and can't really justify another sticky for it.

Quote:

---

Also it might be wise to notify the senators that a new senate session has started.

---

Good idea - I'll do that.

This is driving me crazy. I installed the game, and then tried to patch it to 1.3. Though, when I lunch the installation, it keeps giving me this error:

https://img157.imageshack.us/img157/3804/error8sz.jpg

I tried everything.. Shut off every program, stopped Nortun Anti Virus, shut off the internet, cleared the temp files and restarted the PC; with NO use. Suggestions?

Ok, I'll suck it up and live without extermination. While knocking down everything in sight would certainly be profitable and would definitely be in-line with my policy, I'm worried about the game effects of totally nerfing the Gauls. Ignoring the RP side of it, does anyone have any opinion on this? I'm sure it will be at least a while before I'm actually confronted with that issue, so there's time to discuss. It will take a bit to get organized before I start the expedition.

Perhaps it is the download.
Do you have enough hard disk space available ? Install programs tend to use vast amount of temporary HD space.

Otherwise :
Well, forget about updating to 1.2. first
Get the patches again from FilePlanet instead
http://www.fileplanet.com/102103/0/s...tal-War-Series
Do a new vanilla install - test if it actually works.
Try again. Leave the CD in the drive just in case.
Test after every step if the program still works.

Otherwise :
I do suspect there is some nasty program still up and running on your machine. If the above doesn't work, it may be time to do some serious cleaning. Other possibilities are CD writer software. These are just guesses, I'm no expert on RTW security. Otherwise it might be best to check the RTW offical tech forum. http://www.totalwar.com/ -> rome -> forum

EDIT :
On the issue of tearing down buildings, the AI can build superfast on VH. I recommend tearing down the military buildings as well or you will be swimming in Gauls all the time. They're not a war with anyone else so they should be safe enough.

did you delete the map.rwm or whatever that file you have to delete is called?

anyways, go here and delete the files listed.
http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/i...howtopic=19871

TinCow: On the issue of knocking down Gaulish buildings, my personal inclination would be not to. The auxiliary line of buildings take ages to build, so you would be leaving them defenceless, unable to recruit troops. Presumably, the Spanish and Germans would just walk in after you left. From a historical point of view, while I can see raiding their territory would weaken them, I don't think it would totally stop them raising troops after you've gone.

If you leave the buildings, you will still get money from enslavement. As you vacate settlements, they will either rebel or revert to Gaul. They may train troops to challenge you, but they are still limited to one per turn per settlement, so it should take a while before troops recruited from them are a serious menace. And quite franky, the ravages of a marauding army should encourage the natives to take up arms.

Also, I'm not convinced we desperately need the money. I think the mod is designed so that you can't buy everything you want, at least initially, and that's refreshing after so many games when you have so much cash lying unspent, it corrupts your generals. But we do have enough money to support large armies and can construct priority buildings. In RTR generally, there is less need to build - you can recruit all the best troops anyway, so money does not play a role in getting you up the tech tree.

Firstly I just saw the new maps in the library and they are amazing. Good job. It looks alot better now.

Secondly Im pretty sure that the mod uses a script to give Ai factions free army stacks if they run low.

X-danger:
I remember a while ago I got the same error. I dont remember how to fix it but I know there is a way and I think it was rather simple.

Ok. After some searching I foudn this as the solution to your problem:

Quote:

---

If the error message says something about deleting your temp folder and such, then it's an Installshield error. In that case do the following:

go to "C:\Program Files\Common Files\InstallShield\Professional\Runtime" and delete a folder named "0701". See if this solves the problem.

---