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I will send a spy to ascertain his fate. If he manages to escape to Debeltos alive, I feel honourbound to pursue him by sea. I will not violate the territory of the Ptolemaic empire in this pursuit. Should we be forced to capture Debeltos I will offer it as a gift to the Ptolemaic empire as it has no use to us, and is strategically indefensible. Perhaps they might even accept an alliance in exchange ?
I will of course need my co-consul's approval for this venture.
I believe you will also need approval of the Senate. Remember what happened when Verginius gave territory to the Germans?
I would, however, rather keep the city. It would be good trading outpost on the Black Sea. It's not very important, so a reasonable city garrison would be enough for defense. If it must be given to sombody, then I'd rather it be given the Seleucid Empire, if they are still at war with Ptolemy. It would give the Ptolemies in Thrace something to do other than attack us.
I would, in general, want to be more friendly to Seleucus than to Ptolemy. Ptolemy is in Egypt, and only has isolated colonies near our lands. If a war with them started, it would be limited. If we got into a war with the Seleucid Empire, especially after taking Byzantium from the Greeks, we would be bordering the entire Empire, and have no way to conclude the war quickly.
Actually, as my co-consul pointed out to me, the Greeks are already at war with the Seleucids and the Macedonians are already at war with the Ptolemaic empire.
If we could get the Ptolemaic and the Seleucid empire to go to war over the Bosporus cities, this would be to our great advantage.
The question is, should we interfere ? If we take the Greek Cities and give them to the Ptolemaic empire (perhaps in exchange for an alliance ?) they would definitely go to war with the Seleucid empire next. On the other hand, we can just wait untill the Seleucid empire takes the Greek cities themselves and the result would be the same (but we would not have any bargaining schips).
If one of the killers of your son manages to escape alive to Debeltos, I assure you we will hunt him down, enslave the citizens and loot the town, and then give the smoking and crumbling remains to the Ptolemaic Empire as a gift. We cannot possibly defend it for any length of time.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Legio V is en route to rendezvous with the fleet and sail to Byzantion. It would be a simple matter to call on Debeltos first. The aim of the expedition, to my mind, should be to eradicate forever the last vestiges of the Greek and Macedonian kingdoms. At the moment, this will require that we seize Debeltos from Macedon and Byzantion and Nicomedia from Greece.
We should certainly retain hold of Byzantion. Although it is isolated from the rest of the Republic, it is an important settlement of great potential. However, there is less benefit from trying to hold Debeltos and Greek held Nicomedia. Moreover, while Legio V could guard one isolated settlement, it could not credibly guard three.
I suspect Seleucia might refuse the gift of Debeltos on the grounds that it is indefensible; Egypt probably would not. I would not be averse to gifting the settlement to Egypt (and Nicomedia to either Egypt or Seleucia). But I suspect now that we are neighbours, war between us will break out sooner or later. It seems to be the way of the world: we are regarded as threatening upstarts, who must be strangled at birth.
Perhaps gifting Debeltos to Egypt will delay war. But regardless, it should be regarded only as a temporary measure. We have planned to take the Danube as our frontier. Logically, that dictates expelling Egypt from Europe. If war with Egypt comes, we must strike ruthlessly to that end. With Legate Coruncanius and pro-Consul Pansa to the west of Egypt's European provinces, and Legio V soon to be stationed to their east, I believe this could be swiftly accomplished
The Seleucid and Ptolemaic Empires are already at war. However, I'm afraid the balance of power between those two mighty empires may be in danger of collapsing.
Seleucus is at war not only with Ptolemy but with the Parthians and the Greeks at Byzantium. That is three distinct theaters. As you can see in the World Overview History (available at your local library), Seleucus has recently lost ground to both the Greeks and Ptolemy, while he has managed to regain some lands previously lost to the Parthians. What's worse, Ptolemy has conquered large parts of Syria, and is close to Antioch, the capital of the Seleucid Empire. Ptolemy, on the other hand, is only at war with the Seleucid Empire and Macedon, the latter of which is effectively finished.
I believe that the Selecid Empire is in danger of a serious defeat, or even a complete collapse, at the hands of the Ptolemaic Empire. This would seriously upset the balance of power in the east. If the Seleucid Empire collapses, Ptolemy could, in addition to holding Egypt and Thrace, also gain control over large parts of Asia, Syria, and even Persia.
It is for that reason that I believe that we should support the Seleucid Empire in this conflict.
I am not advocating an immediate war with Ptolemy. But, we should certainly not aid him further. If anything, we should aid Seleucus however we can.
We should hold on to Byzantium as it is an important strategic point, and would prevent Ptolemy from gaining another access route to Asia. I doubt that Seleucus would be able to defend, he's even losing ground to the Greeks. Nicomedia we should give back to Seleucus once it is captured from the Greeks, perhaps in exchange for Alliance.
Debeltos is not too important, and if Seleucus does not want it, then it could perhaps be sold to Ptolemy. We could also keep it, without any special defenses, other than a normal city garrison. Ptolemies of Thrace have not attacked it even though it's Macedonian; I don't think they're interested in it. It would be more useful for us, as it can trade with 4 or more other cities on the Black Sea.
In any case, whatever we do, we must not give further aid for Ptolemy, or seek an alliance with him. Instead, we should support his rival, for the reasons outlined above.
You neglect to mention that the Seleucid empire has had major succes against the 'orange' faction to their north, which is probably the kingdom of Armenia. Their losses against the Ptolemaic empire are largely offset by this. They have even pushed back against the Ptolemaic empire these last five years. If anything, these two superpowers are still equally matched.
Where two bulls fight, who am I to start waving a red flag ? Let them fight it out, I say, we have more than enough to worry about with our present enemies.
This whole warlike manner I see displayed here today worries me greatly and affects my Roman sensibilities. When have we ever sought war (allright, allright, I did argue for it several times, but for strategic reasons only, honest :laugh4: - In the end, the fools attacked us before we could attack them) ? It is not the Roman way. Fools who attack us will be dealt with severely, but I see no reason to look for war.
This news of war between these great powers does however puts the whole expedition in question. If we were to hold onto the Greek cities, we would very likely get drawn into this war, whether we like it or not.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: First Consul, please do not cancel the planned expedition! Byzantion is a great prize!
I do not see how the existance of war between Egypt and Seleucia makes the expedition any more risky. If anything, I would imagine it makes it less likely that these two powers will wish to start an additional war with us.
At the very least, landings in Debeltos and Byzantion should be able to proceed. Seleucia has no territories in Europe and there is no war there for us to get entangled in.
I propose we destroy the Macedonians first, at Debeltos, afterwards gifting or selling the settlement to Egypt. We then take and hold Byzantion. By that time, the problem of Nicomedia may have resolved itself (with only one settlement, Greece's hold on it must surely be tenuous at best).
Lucius Aemilius, you are sometimes labeled as "ignorant" (trait), and I am most shocked to find that this label has some basis in fact! The 'orange faction' (the Dutch? :laugh4:) are the Parthians, who I did mention, contrary to what you say. Further, from them Seleucus recovered parts of Media, while losing parts of Syria to Ptolemy. Just how does freaking Media compare to Syria? Are these just meaningless names to you, Senator? Syria is the heart of the Seleucid Empire. It is probably the richest region in the empire, and it is where their capital, Antioch, is located. Ptolemy closes in on the Seleucid capital, and there is a real possibility of it being cut off from the eastern parts of Seleucus' empire. Media is a mountainous, rugged, and generally worthless region. How does that compare!?
Furthermore, Lucius Aemilius, I call you a hypocrite! You criticize my 'warlike manner', and yet I have explicited stated that I do not want war with Ptolemy, just aid to his rival in the form of alliance and/or city gifts. You suggested that we give exactly such aid to Ptolemy, and you criticize me? Hypocrite! What's worse, you suggest giving aid to the party that obviously has the upper hand, although your ignorance perhaps prohibits you from seeing that!
Settle down, Tiberius (drat, don't you have ANY bad traits ???),
You are correct about the Parthians, I write and read in haste due to urgent business, and my apologies for my ignorance in this matter.
There can be only one conclusion to us supporting the Seleucid empire against our new neighbours, the Ptolemaic empire, and that is war. They will not take kindly to us openly supporting their enemy and strategically isolating their asian province. If they have any sense, they will attack Byzantion the moment we take it. I would do the same in their place. You are our foremost general, and I cannot believe you do not see these simple strategic facts, and thus I imply that you are pointing, not urging perhaps, but definately pointing towards a path that would definitly lead us into war with the Ptolemaic empire.
Furthermore, the financial worth of the region of Media is negligable, but its strategic value is priceless. The major problem of the Seleucid empire is that it is surrounded by enemies or potential enemies. If they manage to secure their northern border, they will be able to push west with all their strength.
Numbers do not mean much on the battlefield, but the strategic disposition is very interesting here. The Ptolemaic empire is cut in two and has a very long border. The Seleucid empire is beset on all sides, but its only major threat lies to the West. I think the Ptolemaic empire may have a temporary good situation on their hands, but the situation of the Seleucid Empire is improving as well. Frankly, it's a gold piece on its side, it could fall either way. My money, in the long term, is on the Seleucid empire.
OCC: Think Russia in WWII.
Numerius Aureolus, if my co-consul has no objections, I will let the plans continue for now, but I have strong reservations. When I finally have time to survey the situation with a decent map I will make my final decision concerning the Greek cities. Debeltos is a go as far as I am concerned.
Lucius Aemilius, it looks like we'll have to disagree on a long-term prediction. But even you said that the Ptolemies have at least a temporary good situation. For that reason, I think we can agree that at this time, we should at least give no aid to Ptolemy. We have already aided them enough by destoying Macedon, and allowing them to capture, and even keep Thrace.
So, I propose that if Debeltos is given to Ptolemy, money must be asked in return, and that alliance with him should not be seeked and none accepted if offered.
We do not need to give aid to Seleucus immediately, but we should keep an eye on Syria. I implore you to send a spy there. If Antioch falls, I will demand immediate aid to Seleucus.
As for Byzantium, we should take it, and keep it. You should realize that it is an extremely important strategic location, and good for trade. Ptolemy should have little issue with it. If we take Byzantium, we will not be "isolating their Asian province", I don't see how you came to that conclusion. They hold Ionia in Asia, and that is already surrounded on all sides by Seleucid territories, and already isolated from Thrace.
We should also take Nicomedia (from the Greeks) to destroy the Greeks completely. It can then be sold to Seleucus, same as Debeltos would be sold to Ptolemy, no aid either way, then. Else, we can keep it. A single legion in a fort near the Hellespont should be able to defend both as they are very close to each other.
I will ponder your suggestions, which I like in principle. Our fleet should not arrive with the Legio V in time to strike at our enemies for the interim sessions. We will let the senate decide on the exact strategy out of a number of proposals.
As for the Asian province, if you are guarding a house surrounded by enemies and it only has two entrances trough whcih it can be supplied, one of which is guarded by a feeble, but vicious dog, which could be put out of the way if really necessary, and that dog is replaced by a rabid rotweiler, whom none dare approach, would you not feel a lot less secure ?
Anyway, you yourself claim Byzantion is an extremely important strategic location, so I do not see why the Egyptians would think otherwise.
In any event, a spy will be dispatched immediately. It will take him quite some time to arrive however.
I think it is time that we stopped expanding east, gentlemen.
Currently there are two major powers fighting an extended, for the most part inconclusive war. Our relations with both aren't great, but solid considering we share a border and we're not at war. Ptolemy and the Seleucids are two lions fighting to the death. To step in would be suicide. No Senators, we should take Byzantion and cease expansion to the East. Instead we should direct our efforts towards Iberia. They have been a threat to us for long enough.
{Galerius Vatinius}
I concur with senator Aemilius, Byzantion should be our last stop in the east. Iberia is a growing menace, and must be contained. As such, our previous talks about aiding Carthage are still a top priority. Two legions should be left in the eastern frontier, but most other forces should be ready for an Iberian confrontation.
Senator Vatinius,
I believe it will be a matter of if our military acheivements move faster than the time of the next Senate session and voting.
I agree with you, we should stop once we have erradicated finally the Greeks and Macedonians and then concentrate again on the West and Carthage.
We have been successful doing this in the past. We have concentrated on one theatre at a time whilst "holding" on the other, it is an excellent policy.
It seems the Republic is on the verge, where we go from here depends largely on what our neighbours do when they find we are on their doorstep. However, we must attend to our current wars first.
Please Senators, do not loose focus.
Let me warn our warlike faction in this house that our nation is completely unprepared for another major war. The war against Macedon has been very costly and we lost the equivalent of three legions in battle. We do not have the forces to expand east and have any chance to hold on to the territory we gain. I still need to raise three legions to fulfill our defensive requirements.
If we end up in war with the Ptolemaic empire and Iberia, we will be very hard pressed indeed.
Please take this into consideration as you plot out future.
Fellow Senators, I have followed this debate with intrest. As my co-consul has said, we have already discussed in private the situation in the East.
However, I fear it is all for naught. I have consulted my astrologers & augers and they gave me bad, nay, grave tidings.
Before our Legions can even reach the 3 cities in question, events will move swifter than we can control them.
Ptolomy will ally with Thrace and declare war on us. Iberia will attack us in the former Gallic towns were we are recovering our lost Eagles. The Seleucids will take Nicodemia from the Greeks.
If this comes to pass, it shall be the greatest test yet for our great Republic. Clearly the Gods are entertained by our struggles, and they wish to be entertained more.
{Galerius Vatinius}
~Galerius comes in a bit tipsy, having been spending some time with his drinking companion, discussing the current state of afairs and all riled up.~
Do not worry yourself too much over what the gods think Consul Pansa. We will invade Mount Olympus and humble Jupiter himself if need be! This Republic will not be thwarted by the nonsensical rabble of astrologers and augers. I besiege you senators, do not waste your time with such things. Instead, lead your men to victory on the strength of your own abilities, govern cities efficiently and raise endless legions. We will prevail in any conflict. We are Romans! Nothing and noone can stop us! Roma Victooorrrr!!!
Conscript Fathers, since the guilty verdict was passed on Publius Laevinius I have felt the need to put this historic event in prose. So I pulled a nice bottle or two of red out of the cellar and sat down. I hope this house will indulge me in reading it.
There was a nobleman in the dock
Who deserved to be thrown from the Tarpean Rock
Publius was his name
Losing Eagles was his game
Whilst his wife sucked another mans...
*Senate Speaker* PUBLIUS PANSA!!!!! I think we've heard quite enough now, thankyou
Servius bursts into laughter, the drunkenness of his fellow senators a bit more than he can bear.
Senators,
I want to do honour to legate Augustus Verginius. His bold action at the Second Sack of Gergovia has killed the Gaul defiler of our honour, Drustan of Decetia, and returned the legionary eagle of the Legio III Sicilia Aemilia to us.
https://img219.imageshack.us/img219/9519/eaglete6.jpg
The Gods will surely forgive us and bless our actions from now on. The eagle wil be resanctified and returned to the Legio III Sicilia Aemilia. Next three weeks of festivities will be held in the city to honour and thank Mars and Jupiter for the return of the sacred eagle. The Aemilia family will hold games and banquets in honour of Augustus Verginius, at my personal expense.
My congratulations to brother Verginius for dealing with this mess for Rome.
{Galerius Vatinius}
Three cheers for Augustus Verginius! The man still does what he does best, and does it better than the rest. A true clinic on how it should be done, I have indeed learned much from the tactical report of the battle. Verginius, a true inspiration for all Romans in a time where such things are supremely valued. Things will surely turn around for the Republic now, with the Eagle returned, the legion active, the Gauls all but destroyed, momentum is on our side.
Senators, I shall see you at the Aemilii celebration for Verginius!
My heartiest congratulations to Augustus Verginius on his outstanding victory. I have never seen a clearer demonstration of the superiority of Roman arms!
And we have our Eagle back to boot!
Debeltos, Byzantion... I care not for these places. We are told that we must pursue and destroy the Greeks and Macedonians once and for all. Yet are not both of those nations surrounded by hostile empires of great size who are also at war against them? They will be gone in due time. We are also told that these are strategic locations and profitable trade centers. Yet their entire strategic significance only comes into play when all territory to their west is in our hands. Isolated as they are, they would be liabilities rather than benefits.
No, Senators, the only reason to take these places is to force a war between us and Alexander's successors. Why is this a war Rome needs to fight? Why should citizens die in the fields against these civilized nations who have done us no harm? I shall not support such an endeavor.
If you wish war, I promise you that one will soon be upon you in the west. Iberia has made clear their intentions many times and they are far more powerful than the Gauls ever were. A single defeat in that theatre resulted in the occupation of a Roman province south of the Alps. Can the same be said of such a defeat in the East? Even after Amulius Coruncanius was killed and his army laid waste, there was no panic in Rome. Yet one defeat at Massilia Ford and many were afraid the Gauls were marching to this very place. We have an enemy at our very doorstep, an uncivilized and fearsome race which does not understand honor and proper civilized politics. If we must engage in yet another war immediately, let us do so there, where our interests are truly at stake.
Still, I would prefer a rest to restore the Legions and build infrastructure to support them. We can accomplish greater conquests after a short rest than we can if we continue to push.
I couldn't have said it better Senator Verginius. These pursuits of Debeltos and Byzantion are illthought, illfated, and far from fruitful. But it seems many among this senate must dream of their next conquest before the current wars even near their end. Byzantion and Debeltos have about as much strategic importance to Rome right now as, say, Colchis or Media. We must finish our current conflicts before wasting our time and Roman lives on some expidition to a very difficult to supply city surrounded by foreign nations.
[NUMERIUS AURELOUS]: Destroying Greece and Macedon would finish off two of our five current conflicts!
As for the others - we have driven Thrace across the Danube and Carthage across the sea. What more do you propose we do?
The remaining conflict is with Gaul, who now have only one settlement as far away and as isolated as Byzantion and Debeltos, but unlike them currently too hard to reach by sea.
Senators, I have to admit to not having consulted the required maps but IF these two Macedon and Greek held regions ARE surrounded by other nations we should leave well alone for now.
Like Carthage with sea between us - there will be other nations between us. By all means continue a naval campaign and cripple them with blockades but a naval invasion?? Nay brothers, it is not prudent just so we can say we have defeated an enemy finally.
Now we have retrieved our honour against the Gauls I would be calling for their complete defeat BUT they are also surrounded and cut off from us so, again, I feel we must leave this matter for now.
What we DO need again is a time of rebuilding our shattered legions. Whilst they are a capable defensive force still, I believe that we should be ready for either Iberia or Carthage to engage with us soon.
I also believe that Thrace will continue to be a problem for us.
So, we must pause now and rebuild our Legions THEN we can be ready to strike back at those who would ravage our lands.
Indeed it would. But I would also leave us with 3 settlements, isolated, and in an exposed position, surrounded by 2 of the most powerful empires in the known world.Quote:
Originally Posted by econ21
I am of the opinion that we should leave Greece and Macedon to be wiped out in the next few seasons by Ptolomy and Seleucia. I know my co-consul disagrees with this strategy and as he is the senior consul I will follow his lead on this issue - unless the Senate votes otherwise in the upcoming session of course.
I have been swayed by my co-consul to leave the Greek settlements to be gobbled up by the Egyptians and Persians. However, the hunt for the last surviving killer of Amulius Coruncanius can not be abandoned without sullying Roman honour. Hence, the expedition to the last Macedonian settlement of Debeltos shall continue, if the senate does not intervene, of course. A motion will be proposed in the upcoming interim session (starting ca 23:00 tonight I figure), in which my strategy will be outlined.
I could support such an expedition under the conditions that it be carried out by a force not large enough to put the Republic at a defensive disadvantage due to its absence, and if the capture of Debeltos is absolutely necessary to bring this hellion to justice, then Debeltos must be given as a gift to the Ptolemies directly following its conquest.