Olympic Snubs over Tibet

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Originally Posted by Mikeus Caesar

Indeed. By that logic, we shouldn't have given them back Hong Kong because it was part of our former empire. But then they'd throw a hissy-fit wouldn't they, because us 'imperialists' are in the wrong. And China is in the right. Because obviously China is never in the wrong...

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Did any Chinese government formally give Tibet its independence, or sign over its control, as was the case with Hong Kong? Or did it achieve de facto independence during a time when the Chinese government wasn't able to contest it? If the latter, did the Chinese government not have the right to reassert its control voer the area when it had the means to do so?

AFAIK successor states are supposed to inherit all the territories and obligations of its predecessor. Eg. The Republic of China observed all the treaties that were signed by its predecessor, Qing China. In its turn, the People's Republic of China observed all the treaties signed by its predecessors that hadn't yet lapsed. Similarly the Republic of China claimed all the territories that belonged to Qing China at the time of the handover, and in turn the People's Republic of China claimed all the territories that belonged to the Republic of China at the time of the handover.

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

Do you support the Dalai Lama's position on Tibet?

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Yes. It would be easier to negotiate that than full independence and I think it would be the better economic choice.

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

Can the UK boycott the Games as well? That way, we can blame our lack of medals on our clean moral conscience, rather than our crap athletes.

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I'd be surprised if the mens coxless four doesn't get gold...

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Hong Kong wasn't British. You got Hong Kong on a lease for 99 years.

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Which during that lease period was British... as in laws, taxes, defense and access to Commonwealth countries.

There are plenty of Hong Kong citizens who immigrated with relative ease to Australia.

Think that you will struggle to fine countries for non-attendance considering the huge numbers of countires that have boycotted before...

The "West" in Moscow 1980 and The "East" and much of Africa in Los Angles 1984. The West and East because of differing sides the cold war and Africa because of New Zealands terrible decision to permit a South African rugby to tour in 1981.

Sport and Politics are always going to be linked. Look even at events in the Olympics - The Munich killings and the black power salutes for example.

The Oylimpic is a nice idea in a not so nice or ideal world.

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Any national olympic commitee that refuses to participate in the Olympics should be fined and/or suspended by the IOC.

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Fine the IOC for awarding China the games .

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Tibet pales in comparison to Darfur. Darfur is the very definition of a genocide and the Chinese government funded the perpetrators .

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So did the British and the Indians to name just two more .

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Any national olympic commitee that refuses to participate in the Olympics should be fined and/or suspended by the IOC.

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I agree completely. The Olympic games should remain as unpolitical as possible. I think any country that boycotts the games should be disqualified from participating in the next set of games as well.

A rather rediculous argument given that the Chinese do everything to make out of the Olympic games a propaganda statement which puts former spins to shame. I guess you too love to have "harmonic" and "peaceful" games.

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I agree completely. The Olympic games should remain as unpolitical as possible. I think any country that boycotts the games should be disqualified from participating in the next set of games as well.

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That can't work since there are valid grounds for any boycott , China is abusing the sport for its own political propoganda , thats a violation of the olympic charter that is:yes:
Then again a boycott for political reasons would also be a violation of the charter ...
Perhaps its time to say bollox to the whole olympic show and put it back into storage .

restore the caliphate!

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Perhaps its time to say bollox to the whole olympic show and put it back into storage .

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Originally Posted by Big_John

restore the caliphate!

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Hey guys, Cypselus just became the first tyrant in Corinth!

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Originally Posted by Big_John

restore the caliphate!

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The Caliphate didn't stretch as far as China. They were both taken over by Tolui's kids though.

Olympic Games.

A place for company sponsors to loudly place colourful swatches of their logo on form hugging lycra wrapping a not likely to be 100% organic piece of meat.

Sounds like a turkey to me.

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

The Caliphate didn't stretch as far as China.

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:brood:

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

That can't work since there are valid grounds for any boycott , China is abusing the sport for its own political propoganda , thats a violation of the olympic charter that is:yes:
Then again a boycott for political reasons would also be a violation of the charter ...
Perhaps its time to say bollox to the whole olympic show and put it back into storage .

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And how would you define what Bush did with the winter olympics in Salt Lake City. Number one, there was a flag of WTC there and as a rule only flags of participating countries are allowed. Number two, Bush held a speech instead of IOC president. Number three, he used his speech for his political agendas.

But in case of China, that is wrong, and everyone should boycott the Olympics :dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

That can't work since there are valid grounds for any boycott , China is abusing the sport for its own political propoganda , thats a violation of the olympic charter that is:yes:

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Everyone uses the Olympic Games for their "political propaganda", to a certain extent. It's almost as bad as Eurovision.

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It's almost as bad as Eurovision.

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Sounds like a cue for a turkey to appear

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z28STzFIFBU
:2thumbsup:

Every country uses the Olympic Games to show off a bit. But the 2008 Olympics take it to extremes because:
- The Chinese government sought the nomination for a political purpose i.e. to bignote itself as a great power; and
- Preparation for the Olympics has often been conducted in a manner that is offensive to our supposed principles; in order to ensure that it all works perfectly and there are no embarrassments the government has locked up dissidents, stolen water from bankrupt farmers, moved millions of people and businesses around the country for the purposes of a spectacle like some backwards monarchy, one could go on.

So the Olympics was political from the very moment that Beijing was given the nomination. And even if they weren't, what sort of message does it now send to just treat these Olympics as business as usual? That we are happy for governments to lock people up as prisoners of conscience and treat their populations like cattle if it means we get a nice sports event and can pat ourselves on the back for understanding "Asian values" or respecting "sovereign rights" (what the hell happened to respecting human rights, anyway?)? Bollocks to that.

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Originally Posted by Furious Mental

Every country uses the Olympic Games to show off a bit. But the 2008 Olympics take it to extremes because:
- The Chinese government sought the nomination for a political purpose i.e. to bignote itself as a great power; and
- Preparation for the Olympics has often been conducted in a manner that is offensive to our supposed principles; in order to ensure that it all works perfectly and there are no embarrassments the government has locked up dissidents, stolen water from bankrupt farmers, moved millions of people and businesses around the country for the purposes of a spectacle like some backwards monarchy, one could go on.

So the Olympics was political from the very moment that Beijing was given the nomination. And even if they weren't, what sort of message does it now send to just treat these Olympics as business as usual? That we are happy for governments to lock people up as prisoners of conscience and treat their populations like cattle if it means we get a nice sports event and can pat ourselves on the back for understanding "Asian values?"

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Or perhaps one should just not judge at all. Within reasonable limits, states are allowed to deal with internal affairs as they like. What China is doing in Tibet is minor compared to what we're tolerating elsewhere in the world, and unlike these countries that aren't in the spotlight, we have little leverage over the Chinese. Put it simply, if you don't like what the Chinese are doing, what can you do about it?

The best we can do is persuade the Chinese and Tibetan leaderships to negotiate some kind of settlement, one that will inevitably overwhelmingly favour the Chinese. However, by backing independence movements and their supporters, which even the Tibetan leaders consider as extremist, even this food scraps possibility is undermined.

What can we do about it? We can't do anything in "hard power" terms. But the mere fact that we can't control the Chinese government does not mean we are obliged to grin nicely and shake its blood soaked hands. On top of that, I think you underestimate the extent to which the Chinese government cares about appearances. As I pointed out above, it has gone to extraordinary lengths in terms of both extravagance and authoritarianism to ensure that presents a perfect image to the world; it desperately wants not to be embarrassed in any way.

I will have to admit that I have an ulterior motivation, although my position would be the same regardless- I do not care about the Olympics as a sporting event and won't be devastated if they don't happen. But I would be immensely entertained to see the Chinese Communist Party get all pissed off.

Oh well. Whatever the politics, I'm looking forward to watching at least the rowing races, since there are a number of teams and rowers that are currently at a truly exceptional level. Though even that was somewhat messed about with the Russian men's eight and their doping.

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Originally Posted by Furious Mental

What can we do about it? We can't do anything in "hard power" terms. But the mere fact that we can't control the Chinese government does not mean we are obliged to grin nicely and shake its blood soaked hands. On top of that, I think you underestimate the extent to which the Chinese government cares about appearances. As I pointed out above, it has gone to extraordinary lengths in terms of both extravagance and authoritarianism to ensure that presents a perfect image to the world; it desperately wants not to be embarrassed in any way.

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There is no point is shaking our heads and wringing our hands if it doesn't help matters. If doing so actively hinders matters, then not only does it not help, it makes things worse. The Dalai Lama has come to a realisation that the Free Tibet supporters are still oblivious to - independence isn't going to happen. Instead, he's trying to get the best deal he realistically can. Despite that, the Free Tibet people insist on keeping their moral highground, despite the awful effects this has in practice. I wonder what they'll do if the Dalai Lama carries out his threat of resigning from leading the government in exile if the violence doesn't stop. Will they just find another figurehead to rally behind?

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Originally Posted by Furious Mental

I will have to admit that I have an ulterior motivation, although my position would be the same regardless- I do not care about the Olympics as a sporting event and won't be devastated if they don't happen. But I would be immensely entertained to see the Chinese Communist Party get all pissed off.

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Poor reasoning. Seeing the CCP pissed off isn't worth the detrimental effect it will have on the Tibetans, who aren't our playthings. The best realistic scenario for the Tibetans requires the Chinese to allow some concessions, and they won't do that if they're pissed off. Instead, they'll just take out their annoyance on the Tibetans. The Olympics won't last for long. Are you prepared to see its aftereffects on the Tibetans, just so you can have a laugh at the Chinese leadership?

I said that my position would be the same regardless. What part of that don't you understand? And I never mentioned Tibet. Tibet is doomed since eventually there will be so many Han there the nation will cease to exist in a cultural as well as political sense. Whether or not the Olympics are boycotted won't change that. But the way the Chinese government has reacted to Tibetan protests is a relatively minor matter compared to its facilitation of genocide and state terrorism in Sudan and Burma. On top of that, call me crazy, call me a fanatic, but I have this strange hang up with corrupt one party states that lock people up for having opinions and threaten small countries with nuclear weapons. China is using the event to portray itself as a magnamanious great power even as it has missiles pointed at Taiwan and ship loads of guns destined for death squads elsewhere in the world. Is every government and leader too cowardly to point this out? At exactly what point are countries that supposedly give a damn about human rights actually going to put their money where their mouth is? Supposedly we cared about human rights when they were being trampled on by the Soviet Union, but is that just because they didn't have lucrative partnerships with Google, Volkswagon, McDonalds and our other multinational friends? I guess human rights are something that matter only when they are being abused by communists that don't manufacture our televisions.

Sigh.... So many fools. Some of you really need to research and understand both sides of the story.

Yes genocide was being committed in Tibet by the Chinese goverment. But right now China arn't a bunch of stupid little :furious3: . They have plans to solve this, knowing that their olympics is in a state of jepordy. For a while now China has been trying to stop the riots and fix the problems. The soldiers arn't in there, at the moment, to kill them, god. They're there right now to stop the riots. There was an interview with serveral chinese soldiers in teh hospital. When he and his team were sent in to stop some rioters from setting fire to a building WITH NON-LETHAL weapon. They soon couldn't handle the problem and were told to retreat. The rioters then chased the police officers with knives and cut them up pretty bad and some retard takes a picture of the police officer hitting the rioter with a stick. DUDE! :daisy:! The guys stabbing the :daisy: out of him, and the officer gets in trouble with the world for hitting him back with a :furious3: stick. There has also been another photo sent out by the media that there were a heavy military actions. BUT if those stupid little :furious3: would even look at the picture it was obvious that the two soldiers were trying to get some people onto the ambulance. But the :furious3: little reporter decided to say that the ambulance was a :furious3: assault car. Like seriously there was even a redcross on the car. Seriosly I could go on. But the western media is spewing out stuff to slander China. Seriously when Canada (I am Canadian) lets Quebec have his indepedence, and the U.S.A let the Texas republics (not sure wut its called) have their independence. Then they can go tell China to stop. I'm not saying that the genocide they are committing is right, but sometimes you got to understand both sides of the story.

Sorry for the spazz, but it pisses me off. Sorry about the language as well.

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Originally Posted by RoadKill

Sigh.... So many fools. Some of you really need to research and understand both sides of the story.

Yes genocide was being committed in Tibet by the Chinese goverment. But right now China arn't a bunch of stupid little :furious3: . They have plans to solve this, knowing that their olympics is in a state of jepordy. For a while now China has been trying to stop the riots and fix the problems. The soldiers arn't in there, at the moment, to kill them, god. They're there right now to stop the riots. There was an interview with serveral chinese soldiers in teh hospital. When he and his team were sent in to stop some rioters from setting fire to a building WITH NON-LETHAL weapon. They soon couldn't handle the problem and were told to retreat. The rioters then chased the police officers with knives and cut them up pretty bad and some retard takes a picture of the police officer hitting the rioter with a stick. DUDE! :daisy:! The guys stabbing the :daisy: out of him, and the officer gets in trouble with the world for hitting him back with a :furious3: stick. There has also been another photo sent out by the media that there were a heavy military actions. BUT if those stupid little :furious3: would even look at the picture it was obvious that the two soldiers were trying to get some people onto the ambulance. But the :furious3: little reporter decided to say that the ambulance was a :furious3: assault car. Like seriously there was even a redcross on the car. Seriosly I could go on. But the western media is spewing out stuff to slander China. Seriously when Canada (I am Canadian) lets Quebec have his indepedence, and the U.S.A let the Texas republics (not sure wut its called) have their independence. Then they can go tell China to stop. I'm not saying that the genocide they are committing is right, but sometimes you got to understand both sides of the story.

Sorry for the spazz, but it pisses me off. Sorry about the language as well.

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Any chance we could get some links to these pics?

Oh and since when was Texas the state with the most credible claim to independence? Both California and Texas had a lot of US help in their little wars of independence. Vermont on the other hand helped out the US (saving its bacon at the Battle of Bennington and thus setting the stage for the Battle of Saratoga) and Vermont remained independent for around 13 years with a president, far more egalitarian constitution and the ability to prevent encroachment by New Yorkers and redcoats!

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Sounds like a cue for a turkey to appear

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z28STzFIFBU
:2thumbsup:

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Please, no. I've already died inside once.

This political correctness is becoming increasingly embarassing. Who cares what the Chinese are doing? This is sports! Sports are a substitute for war, where countries can compete with each other and feel very proud and nationalistic without anyone getting hurt, so keep the two, sports and politics, apart. Far apart. (Second thought: just ban sports, that way I won't have to see the crap everywhere all the time.)

Besides, what exactly are you supposed to achieve with this boycott? Will China rethink its politics and doings in Tibet, come to a realisation that Western values are far superior to their own and come begging for forgiveness? I find that to be a most unlikely scenario, what I do find likely however is that these pathetic boycotts won't achieve anything, except for perhaps annoying some poor Chinese workers involved in the organization of the opening ceremony.

Yes, the Chinese government wants the rest of the world to be polite and not do anything political while it conducts a huge display of rank nationalism. It is complete hypocrisy, and the notion that these Olympics were ever apolitical or ever could have been given the Chinese government's attitude to them (i.e. they are a propaganda tool for both domestic and international purposes) is complete and utter nonsense. You may as well ask for a Communist Party rally to be apolitical. The idea that "no one is hurt" by these Olympics is also total garbage when you consider the amazing and oppressive lengths that the government is going to to present a perfect picture for the world- vast areas of agricultural land have been starved of water to keep Beijing's "rivers" looking like pristine streams, and of course plenty of dissidents have been summarily thrown in gaol to stop them causing any embarrassment. And, of course, the poor Chinese workers whom the government has threatened to fine hundreds of yuan if they use the toilets in stadiums they built, lest foreigners are put off by the thought of using the same latrine as a dirty Beijing resident. If the government in any Western country conducted itself in this way to put on a sports event people would be outraged, and also revolted at the notion that they can be bought off with clean dunnies and fake rivers. It is quite ironic actually- Westerners always express disdain for all those dumb Third Worlders that let themselves get bought off by demagogues with "bread and circuses", but they're letting the Chinese government do it to them right now.

The notion that a boycott would inevitably be pointless is a dubious proposition anyway because the immense effort the Chinese government has gone to in organising the Olympics shows it desperately wants everyone to show up for its debutante's ball.

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Originally Posted by Innocentius

This political correctness is becoming increasingly embarassing. Who cares what the Chinese are doing? This is sports! Sports are a substitute for war, where countries can compete with each other and feel very proud and nationalistic without anyone getting hurt, so keep the two, sports and politics, apart. Far apart. (Second thought: just ban sports, that way I won't have to see the crap everywhere all the time.)

Besides, what exactly are you supposed to achieve with this boycott? Will China rethink its politics and doings in Tibet, come to a realisation that Western values are far superior to their own and come begging for forgiveness? I find that to be a most unlikely scenario, what I do find likely however is that these pathetic boycotts won't achieve anything, except for perhaps annoying some poor Chinese workers involved in the organization of the opening ceremony.

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Haha, trading the opressed for the opressed are we?
Just keep the ol' well it will only hurt some poor (insert the opressed here) so dont do it line.
Classic rubbish.

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Originally Posted by RoadKill

Sigh.... So many fools. Some of you really need to research and understand both sides of the story.

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Reliable sources. Your post looks like nothing but pro-authoritarian propaganda. :juggle2: