Spore and Mass Effect copyright protection discussion

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Originally Posted by frogbeastegg

Some of those checks were really very cute. Ah, the days of spelling out words in the Aurabesh in TIE Fighter ...

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I remember that being in X-Wing. Once I misplaced my manual and spent all afternoon plugging in symbols... :/

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Originally Posted by Kekvit Irae

I remember old style RPGs that came either with a comic (a few Atari games) or a "choose your own adventure book" style of manual, where you were told to flip to page 42 instead of being told what was going on in-game (Dragon Wars). Annoying, but they stuff a whole lot of crap into those manuals, which is good filler to read.
Sadly, those days are long gone, since it seems like the game producers think the average IQ of a gamer is less than a rock (re: Madden and GTA gamers). The days of "smart" mainstream games have long since been over with.

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I think my mom still has a couple of those Atari comics.

As for smart games, I remember the old ones where you actually had to type what you wanted your character to do. Now your mouse just changes when you can open a door or walk to a new room.

Sorry if I am derailing this topic but my posts are part of a larger discussion regarding the work companies used to put into games. As well as older forms of copyright protection. :beam:

Ahh, the good old days. My favorite PC game of all time had nearly no copy protection, it was just good. I bought four copies at various times, won two others ones via various means (Three are still in the box), bought the (Stupid, useless) strategy guide, and even picked up the sound track. I don't see much hope for that kind of (mutually profitable) gaming experience coming around again.

Oh, and about the photocopying 200 page manuals, I actually memorized the word pairs for the copy protection on the Dark Queen of Krynn series, if anyone remembers those. Not really made an effort to do it, just punched 'em in so often I knew them off the top of my head.

I had already given up on Mass Effect, but it's a bit sad to take a pass on Spore as well. :shrug:

Mostly I think it's the big business of PC games that is dying, and frankly, good riddance to most of it. Gaming's version of iTunes will be along soon enough to wipe them and their laughable 'protection' schemes out.

:egypt:

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Just gonna confirm that this story is legit, and then I'm off to cancel my pre-order for Mass Effect.

-edit-

Looks legitimate, order canceled. Too bad. I was looking forward to that game.

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Even that information from the developer is disingenuous:

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"Q: How many installations will SecuROM allow from my copy of MEPC?

A: Since SecuROM has nothing to do with the installer, you can install and uninstall on the same machine over and over again without any problems. SecuROM also allows you to activate the game on 3 different machines."

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Right, as long as you don't make any significant hardware changes like hard drive swaps or OS upgrades that trigger SecureROM's system profiling, so it thinks its running on a new machine.

The FAQ also doesn't address whether the SecureROM files and profiling will be removed when the game is un-installed, which is a critical point for many of us. It's a mega-thread so I didn't read it all to see if that was answered down-thread, but prior history on SecureROM removal (with a game uninstall) hasn't been good.

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Originally Posted by Ramses II CP

Oh, and about the photocopying 200 page manuals, I actually memorized the word pairs for the copy protection on the Dark Queen of Krynn series, if anyone remembers those. Not really made an effort to do it, just punched 'em in so often I knew them off the top of my head.

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I remember those, though I only played Champions of Krynn and Death Knights of Krynn. The former was copied from a friend and I did indeed have the 150-200 page manual photocopied, partially for the copy protection. Castles and Castles II, by Interplay, also had similar copy protection where they asked you words from the manual. The original Castles only asked on install and when changing settings. The sequel asked after a few months of playtime and gave you multiple choice answers.

I also remember (not so fondly) the code-wheel style. That was used for Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe (Lucasarts), and I think you had to match plane bodies with nose art. I vaguely recall some kind of secret decoder page copyright protection for some random TMNT game. It had a red plastic window that you had to place over the words to read them. This thwarted simple photocopying, because a the color contrast of the ink was lost, making the red window thing useless and the words unintelligible.

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Originally Posted by Ramses II CP

Ahh, the good old days. My favorite PC game of all time had nearly no copy protection, it was just good. I bought four copies at various times, won two others ones via various means (Three are still in the box), bought the (Stupid, useless) strategy guide, and even picked up the sound track. I don't see much hope for that kind of (mutually profitable) gaming experience coming around again.

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What game was that?

Myth: The Fallen Lords

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_(computer_game_series)

A buddy of mine still runs a MP server for the game (And it's sequels, and Marathon) here:

http://www.mariusnet.com/

Hilariously ugly webpage with a review of the game from 1996:

http://www.csoon.com/issue21/p_bungie.htm

One of the TFL CDs I have is signed by the Bungie guys. It was a grand old game, from the halcyon days of gaming, when we surfed uphill over snowy old telephone wires with creaky 28.8 modems and we liked it! :laugh4:

Okay, thread derailment halted. The old man is tottering back to his shelf of DOS games while cackling to himself. :clown:

:egypt:

I got X360 Mass Effect. And I got to admit it's a beautiful thing, the fact that assuming my X360 and its controller will work let's say after 10 years from now. I can simply hook up my X360, get Mass Effect in to the drive and play the game if I want to. That thought feels great as a matter in fact, I really get that kind of feeling that I own the product.

The cold fact that these servers could be shut down at any time, and that leading to a situation where you won't be able to play that game. That is simply not acceptable.

I think that the "activating games online" is the future. In the end most of the games will require some kind of "check" to a server, either during the installation or when the game is installed. You know this is the thing that I keep hearing that PC games are so much less expensive and all that. When internet plays so huge role in it (to update/mod/even to install the game), and you have to pay for it. It's kind of funny how people ignore that fact, or simply forget it.

I think that this is nothing... I mean, I'm waiting for the information on how will Empire: Total War be protected. Yeah...

This pretty much sums up my feelings:

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...ass_effect.jpg

WHAAAAAAAAT? Every 10 days? ok 1 every 2 months or 3 would be much more conveniant, since virtually no one goes on holiday, EA (Evil of Axis) is beggining to get on my nerve, EA seems to be forgetting that a unhappy a community is one you don't profit from... its a shame we have to threaten there wallets to get what we want. (Free unlockable weapons in BF:BC anyone?)

All this "Sucruity" is getting on my nerves, Securom blows, I no intention of breathing it in.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

This pretty much sums up my feelings:

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...ass_effect.jpg

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This is probably the meanest thing I ever read. But the "most true" as well. :shocked2: :inquisitive:

If you like that, you're gonna love this:

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...a/20080509.jpg

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Originally Posted by Lemur

If you like that, you're gonna love this:

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...a/20080509.jpg

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LOL. I love Penny Arcade. :laugh4:

Well it looks like EA has backed off from the recently-announced protection schemes for both games, and is now going with the more standard SecuROM crap we're more familiar with.

A partial victory for anti-Orwellian forces, I suppose. Yay(?)!



(Note to FBE and Kekvit Irae: Feel free to merge this with the other thread if you think it's warranted.)

is now considering buying spore

Yeah, there's a similar post on that kotaku site that they're also doing this for the PC version of Mass Effect.

What infuriates me is that nobody, in these Q&A posts with the devs, bothers to ask if the hidden, low-level copy protection will be removed when you uninstall the game. It's not just about the immediate hassles of what you have to do, to play the @#&$* game, it's about what crap they're going to leave behind on your system, at a very deep and hidden level of the OS, after you uninstall the game, and that could conflict with other software on your system, or open hidden back doors to malware.

Makes me crazy.

Also, notice how this is a big argument against cross-platform game titles. A publisher can afford to alienate a percentage of PC gamers, if they know they have secured revenue from console sales for the same title. It's a much bigger risk for a PC-only title.

I think many of us are at a breaking point with this nonsense, where we're hardcore PC gamers and we don't want to buy a console just to play something like Spore. There are still enough non-invasive PC games out there like The Witcher, GalCiv2, etc. to keep us busy. I'd like to play Spore, but not at this cost, and not if it's going to infect my computer with non-removable hidden software agents with access to the Internet.

I hope CA is watching these developments carefully, since (AFAIK) Empire: Total War is a PC-only game, right? It's not my favorite time period, but I'm looking forward to buying it... and only if it doesn't go down this massively invasive DRM road.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

This pretty much sums up my feelings:

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...ass_effect.jpg

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:laugh4:

About the issue. The thing that really gets me is this:

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As with BioShock, you only get to activate the game three times.

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Who in there right mind would buy a game they can only install 3 times?! THREE?! That's just craziness in my mind. You've bought the game that should be enough.

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Originally Posted by Ichigo

Who in there right mind would buy a game they can only install 3 times?! THREE?! That's just craziness in my mind. You've bought the game that should be enough.

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Quite a few people in these forums actually. That's what I find so sad, that people are that willing to give up control of their own property (and security thereof) for a game. It's a bit of a stretch but it reminds me quite a bit of the Soup Nazi story. Oh well, just another example of one of the many reasons I quit gaming cold turkey there for a few months. /shrug

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Originally Posted by Whacker

Quite a few people in these forums actually. That's what I find so sad, that people are that willing to give up control of their own property (and security thereof) for a game. It's a bit of a stretch but it reminds me quite a bit of the Soup Nazi story. Oh well, just another example of one of the many reasons I quit gaming cold turkey there for a few months. /shrug

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You disappeared from the chat. We were all under the impression that u was deadzies.

I agree with your post.

Yey! I'm so glad. They'll certainly be getting money from me now!

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Originally Posted by Ichigo

Who in there right mind would buy a game they can only install 3 times?! THREE?! That's just craziness in my mind. You've bought the game that should be enough.

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Speaking for myself, the revelation that it was included came too late. I didn't know about the registry problems until after I'd installed the Bioshock demo. The registry issue made me unhappy, but by that point I was planning to wipe my PC so playing the full game didn't matter. I liked the demo. I liked the game concept. It had been so long since I last played anything like this; literally years. So I got the game, planning on doing a full system reinstall after I'd completed it. A few hours later I learned all about the limited installs and other 'surprises'. To say I was not happy would be an understatement. I just didn't see the point in ranting on the forums; it's not as if those with any control over DRM on games read the arena.

A while later I tried to uninstall Bioshock. The uninstaller couldn't find it. The directory was there, the short cuts were there, and it showed up in add/remove programs. There was no way to remove it in a way the DRM would consider legitimate. Bang goes one of my activations. I won't lose any more; I won't be installing it again.

As it turns out, I truly enjoyed Bioshock - on the 360. Best duplicate Christmas present ever.

News of heavy-handed DRM is spreading much sooner now, as we've seen with Mass Effect and Spore. That makes it easier to avoid, like Starforce was.

After the above post, maybe not after all. Sounds like a hell of alot of hassle just to play a game, and legitimately to boot.

So Spore doesn't have SecuRom any more? Good, now I can look forward to the pure awsomeness that is spore.

All I can say is WOW!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=407y...eature=related

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Originally Posted by woad&fangs

So Spore doesn't have SecuRom any more? Good, now I can look forward to the pure awsomeness that is spore.

All I can say is WOW!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=407y...eature=related

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No, Spore (and Mass Effect) still *do* have Securom -- it's just not going to be as invasive as the version announced a few days ago. (Which means it's still a pain, just not as much as the version that was originally going to be used.) :thumbsdown:

(In Response to the news)

BOOHYAAAA!!!!!

I'll get a slight sting in my eye rather than 2 steel toe cap boots in my face and a twisted nipples

Well, news is that MEPC went gold, so there's zero chance they're going to back down any further on their product activation. The three-install limit is in place for good.

Very sad. I wanted to play this game.

You know what's going to be utterly precious about this whole fiasco...

The game is going to be released. Some, but not all, of the potential gamer base are going to wisen up and make the decision not to purchase this based on the facist copyright 'protection'. Sales aren't going to be what's expected, and EA is then going to immediately blame the problem on piracy. You heard it here first folks.

Whacker, that is a brilliant prediction.

I'm going to list three things I have done, then rant briefly.

One) I once went to a local community production of Andrew Lloyd Webber's "Cats." Since that day, I have been having impure thoughts about felines.

Two) I installed a game purchased for my mother-in-law as a Christmas gift on my machine so she could play it a little bit during the week that she was here visiting. Since the game had no copy protection and I was intrigued I didn't uninstall it when she went home. I sent the full purchase price to the developer with an apology for violating the EULA and suggested that they could split the money with the publisher and Best Buy, where I would have bought another copy. Admittedly I did not include sales tax or suggest any revenue sharing with the state.

Three) I just bought a 'complete with all upgrades and expansions' package, download only, from Stardock for a game that I already have a disk copy of. I paid three times what I normally call my limit (I wait until things have hit the discount rack and/or value package stage, as my copy of Total War: Eras testifies). I have no problem paying full price or turning the disk that I paid for into a coaster, because Stardock has more than earned my money.

So, that's me as described by things I've done. Now, for those who say 'people who aren't pirates should have no problem with insert name of your least favorite draconian CP method here'...I'm not a pirate, I do more to support intellectual property rights than most people ever thought of, and I resent your position as stated sufficiently that we would probably have to work out our differences somehow before we could be in the same room safely.

That's the rant.

Last but not least, when the current generation of SecuROM 'protected' titles has fallen into the price range I deem fair I will likely buy them...and play them on the same machine (with no internet connection) in the same way (with no disk in the drive) that I have always preferred to play games.

In my country (greece) the anticapitalist slash antiamerican mentality dominates (since most publishers are based in USA)...
Harming the publishers looks ok in people's eyes...because they become rich through exploitation of others (that sounded like Marx 101 I know)....
So this Robin Hood mentality soaks through and through...sadly we are one of the first if not the No1 country in piracy in EU....
But on the PC front the developers dont understand...ALL the money lost on piracy is FEEDING the HARDWARE industry...Nvidia/Intel/AMD/ATI/Kingston/WD...you name it...
People understand that its cheaper to have a €3000 PC than a €400 console...because on the latter youll have to pay at least €500 annually for games....in 6 years thats €3000 just on games...
Instead people download PC games for free and say: "Oh nevermind that EA CEO wont miss a spoon of chaviar"....
But since its impossible to download an 8800GT for example Nvidia is getting fat on software money...
Only last year Nvidia sold 20 million of the 8 series cards...
So I would suggest 2 ways to KILL piracy:
Make the games minimum specs INSANE like 8800GTX, 4GB ram, Quad Core CPU....
Then partner with Nvidia/Intel or AMD...Even if you download the said game the game publisher will get his money through HARDWARE since as I said you CANNOT download an 8800GTX....

Crysis basically did that and they did very poorly money wise. They probably blame it on piracy, too...

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Originally Posted by hellenes

So I would suggest 2 ways to KILL piracy:
Make the games minimum specs INSANE like 8800GTX, 4GB ram, Quad Core CPU....
Then partner with Nvidia/Intel or AMD...Even if you download the said game the game publisher will get his money through HARDWARE since as I said you CANNOT download an 8800GTX....

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I understand you, but I think that you would be shooting your own leg with this. You see, I think that one of the pros about the consoles is the fact that you don't have to upgrade your PC every six months, to keep up the performance of the PC with new games released. As far as I understand it, PlayStation 2 sells well even to this day, same goes for its games. I mean, I think that that is something people don't want to bother with. Of course, you can always play those new games with lower graphical quality, for sure. Invest every six months like 300$ (just theoretical figure), to keep up so that you can play all new PC games with highest settings on, running with at least steady 60 FPS (in any given situation in the game).

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Originally Posted by Alexander the Pretty Good

Crysis basically did that and they did very poorly money wise. They probably blame it on piracy, too...

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Well, reports said over 1 million unit sold, but I'm not sure on how the game was budged. So, it's unclear for me on how well did Crysis perform money wise. The game has been for some time on sale already. I remember Crytek being upset on sold VS. pirated ratio of Crysis.

Then one can ask, how many more of Crysis units would have been sold more, with unbreakable copy protection? Or with online validation? Looking at the Sins of a Solar Empire as an example, of 100% pirated Crysis copies probably 20-30% could return it in to the money, in my opinion. I don't care what publishers claim or say, these people never wanted to buy Crysis they just got the chance to play it for free and they did it. "These people never wanted to buy", well at least not at the release day no, maybe later on for lower price.

I pretty much think that, if a person has enough of money to get great PC, he/her will definitely have 50$ for Crysis. That's all I'm saying.