Insight in into Einstein's beliefs in God and the Jewish people

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So far, the best and most thoughtful post within this thread.

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Don't be silly Dave apart from it being largely nonsense for it to be the best and most thoughtful it would discuss the actual topic . I mean seriously .....

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Therefore, Einstein making a definitive, derogatory statement about the belief in God is based on nothing other than his own personal emotions, not logic or science. As such, Einstein's remark was itself childish.

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:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Here have a clue , you asked .... I would like to hear how he came to his conclusions and whether he used scientific reasoning for this. ...so what was the letter , what was he discussing and with who was he discussing it ?
If by some chance he was discussing someones views on Biblical attitudes to life and he was applying his input along the line of factual attitudes to life then it would suggest that he is using scientific reasoning in a philosophical dicussion .

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Don't be silly Dave apart from it being largely nonsense for it to be the best and most thoughtful it would discuss the actual topic . I mean seriously .....:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Here have a clue , you asked .... I would like to hear how he came to his conclusions and whether he used scientific reasoning for this. ...so what was the letter , what was he discussing and with who was he discussing it ?
If by some chance he was discussing someones views on Biblical attitudes to life and he was applying his input along the line of factual attitudes to life then it would suggest that he is using scientific reasoning in a philosophical dicussion .

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Wow, your post really added to the conversation. Ah, the Tribsey Troll at his finest.:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Actually I though Navaros answer was a very good rebuttal from a religious perspective.

I'll break it down into its paragraphs and add my comments below each.

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Originally Posted by Navaros

The wisdom of any man, even the smartest ever born on the Earth, doesn't mean much. If God exists, then the wisdom of the wisest man on Earth is foolishness to God. Utlimately, all & any statements about there being no God from the mouth of any man, is merely unfounded speculation. It cannot be proven. Therefore it is unimportant what any man thinks. God or the lack of God is what it is, speculation about it from the smartest man on Earth has no bearing on whether God exists or not.

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No matter how smart one is or how many people agree with you it does not make a statement true. Most science is written in the third person to try and remove personal authourity from an individual report. God cannot be proven or disproven. However one can't prove which religion is right or not either, or if indeed any on Earth is correct at all. So why not treat them with equal weight and not raise one above the other. Which is what Einstein was talking about too.

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Originally Posted by Navaros

If the letter described in the article is true, though, then Einstein does indeed lose a lot of credibility. What makes his lack of belief in God - which is simply a guess - any "less childish" than belief in God? There isn't any reasonable answer to that. Therefore, Einstein making a definitive, derogatory statement about the belief in God is based on nothing other than his own personal emotions, not logic or science. As such, Einstein's remark was itself childish.

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Correct some of his remarks might have gotten him a warning point in the Backroom. But as a private message we normally don't police that. Also what he states is

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Originally Posted by Einstein

the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish

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So he complements the stories as honourable but their format as primitive (like virtually all religions) and the stories as pretty childish (most religions present there stories in easy to understand primary school level ideas). So it would be rather difficult hypothetically speaking to give him a warning point or two.

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Originally Posted by Navaros

It should also be noted that Jesus said it is good to accept him and God as children accept him. So while Einstein meant his "childish" comments as a slur against belief in God, in fact a "childish belief in God" may indeed be the best possible thing for human beings to have.

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Nice riposte and turning of the cheek. :2thumbsup:

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Wow, your post really added to the conversation.

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Yeah well Dave it might help if you had the faintest idea what the subject matter actually is .If by some chance he was discussing someones views on Biblical attitudes to life and he was applying his input along the line of factual attitudes to life then it would suggest that he is using scientific reasoning in a philosophical dicussion .
:book:

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Actually I though Navaros answer was a very good rebuttal from a religious perspective.

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Apart from the fact that it doesn't rebut the statement made in the letter .
The main failing in navs response is nicely illustrated here.....

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Therefore, Einstein making a definitive, derogatory statement about the belief in God is based on nothing other than his own personal emotions, not logic or science.

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...as he managed to get it completely backwards , it was Gutkind whose philosphy was based on personal emotion not logic or science , though Einstein agreed with some of his thoughts as even though they were based on what could be described as a personal emotional attatchment to myths they could be supported by facts and logic .

This bumps Einstein up a level or two in my book, although he was already very high up before I clicked on this thread.

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Originally Posted by Ice

This bumps Einstein up a level or two in my book, although he was already very high up before I clicked on this thread.

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Couldn't have said it better than my boy Ice just did.

:balloon2:

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Originally Posted by Ice

This bumps Einstein up a level or two in my book, although he was already very high up before I clicked on this thread.

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Religious discrimination... :thumbsdown:

Einstein was a great man, but he also stole shrinky-drinks from god.

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Religious discrimination...

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Is it ?

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Is it ?

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Preferencing someone because of a belief they hold, Tribes.

Isn't it interesting how the religious are now less keen on the man and the atheists more so?

Why does it matter.

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Preferencing someone because of a belief they hold, Tribes.

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What you mean like preference because someone thinks they are gods chosen people yet can provide no factual proof to support it , thats the neo-mystical philosophers with the religeous discrimination not Einstein .

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

What you mean like preference because someone thinks they are gods chosen people yet can provide no factual proof to support it , thats the neo-mystical philosophers with the religeous discrimination not Einstein .

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What Ice did was religious discrimination, that's why I quoted him, noone said that about Einstein.

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What Ice did was religious discrimination

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How so ?
Do the honesty and frankness of Einsteins assesment of the book the author sent him not stike you as very good and much better than many of his other more well known thoughts on the topic ? As such would they not raise your opinions on the man in relation to the topic ?

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Originally Posted by Husar

Religious discrimination... :thumbsdown:

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You'll find it hard not to discriminate when it comes to belief in the metaphysical, especially when religion comes into it.

Which faith do you follow?

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Originally Posted by Husar

Religious discrimination... :thumbsdown:

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I guess you just tend to like people more when their views are similar to yours... Simply liking someone more than another would itself be discrimination? theoretically maybe but too strong a word to use....:juggle2:

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

How so ?
Do the honesty and frankness of Einsteins assesment of the book the author sent him not stike you as very good and much better than many of his other more well known thoughts on the topic ? As such would they not raise your opinions on the man in relation to the topic ?

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Well personally I would say a real scientist would be best not speculating on something he can't apply his particular skillset to. Frankly I think Einstein's comments look like a man out of his depth and are not really any better than Pub Philosophy.

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Originally Posted by Husar

Religious discrimination... :thumbsdown:

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If thinking the Jews are no better than other religious sects and that most religion is a bunch of childish superstitions, than yes I guess I'm discriminating.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

Whilst you were silently lobbying for your Senior Membership,

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Congratulations DevDave.

An honor long overdue. Seeing a colorful character such as yourself granted Senior honors gives me a touch of hope that a mad man such as myself might one day also earn a golden goblet full of the worlds most delicious beer in the sacred restriced "senior members only" area. But I won't hold my breath. :laugh4:

:medievalcheers: Congrats bro!

Congrats, DevDave :bow:

As for Einstein's beliefs, it doesn't seem like he considered it to be important himself, otherwise he'd been more upfront about it.

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Originally Posted by Husar

Religious discrimination... :thumbsdown:

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Nothing wrong with discrimination as long as it doesn't stem from prejudice or bias.

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Well personally I would say a real scientist would be best not speculating on something he can't apply his particular skillset to. Frankly I think Einstein's comments look like a man out of his depth and are not really any better than Pub Philosophy.

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Sorry , that makes no sense .
Gutkind sent his philosophies to Einstein for his appraisal . Both have made comments in favour of the same earlier philosophers along similar lines in both the Judaic and Christian schools (and ancients though I havn't seen any of Einsteins on the eastern) .
The questions posed and the answers given are as old as religeous and scientific philosophy and all the blends of the two are .
How on earth could you possibly say that it is speculation on something that he cannot apply his skillset to . It is a debate that philosophers scientists and theologians have been pulling their beards out over for thousands of years .

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

How so ?
Do the honesty and frankness of Einsteins assesment of the book the author sent him not stike you as very good and much better than many of his other more well known thoughts on the topic ? As such would they not raise your opinions on the man in relation to the topic ?

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I think God would say his thoughts in this letter are pretty wrong. :sweatdrop:
So why would this raise my opinion about him?
Just saying he's a better man because he's an atheist is IMO pretty stupid, that's similar to saying he's a better man because he prefers chocolate ice over vanilla ice which I'd call flavor discrimination. :dizzy2:

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Just saying he's a better man because he's an atheist is IMO pretty stupid

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But was he an atheist though ?
How do you square that with his other comments on religeous/mystical philosophers ?
A simple question for you Husar .
This letter he wrote , what was it about ?

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

This letter he wrote , what was it about ?

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Well, I didn't read it, has Ice read it?
But I heard Gutkind used to send his philosophies to Einstein for his appraisal but then again that doesn't seem to have a lot to do with whether Ice is discriminating or not, your view and that of Ice seem to be based on the "fact" that atheism = correct but there are people who do not agree with that just like atheists do not agree with christians, buddhists etc. on their spiritual beliefs and my opinion is that this should be mostly taken out of judgement since we don't even really know why some people are more religious than others. One scientist I saw even said there's a part of our brain that seems to have an influence on how religious we are, so being religious is genetic and thus similar to being homosexual and saying that homosexuals are worse because they're homosexuals is pretty politically incorrect and thus saying a persona is worse for being religious is pretty politically incorrect which incidentally ends this argument for me here because it was not meant as a big deal anyway(I kinda like Ice you know, even though he's an atheist) and because Einstein was a great man anyway, no matter his religious beliefs.

Kthxbye.

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your view and that of Ice seem to be based on the "fact" that atheism = correct

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OK one more small question Husar ..or actually a very big one .
What is an atheist ?

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

OK one more small question Husar ..or actually a very big one .
What is an atheist ?

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Litterally it would be someone who holds no belief.:beam:

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Litterally it would be someone who holds no belief.

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Nice try but no cigar .

An atheist is someone who denies the existance of gods.

Which essentially brings us to where you might want to go that Einstein wasn't an atheist but just didn't like religions, or maybe not. :shrug:

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An atheist is someone who denies the existance of gods.

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Is it ?
Since the topic centres around philosophy is that definition sufficient . Atheism is a very wide description isn't it with many branches , since in this case both people in question were basedin the Jewish tradition , how many different branches of atheism are there in Jewish philosophies and how many of those fit you definition ?
Like I said about those three words I put to you ....its a very big question :yes:

Jewish atheism sounds like a contradiction in terms, a bastardisation of the concept, not like it isn't normal today but I find it quite...weird, just like catholicism.