But now only one thousand soldiers die in Irak and a whole country (indeed, all Western countries) is questioning a war.
Actually, a good deal of those countries questioned it even before it started. It is absolutely not related to the number of dead soldiers during the war (but could be related to the number of dead civilians, as far as Europe is concerned), but to its actual goal, motivation and benefit. To start it was hazardous at best (some would say incredibly stupid, anyway a terrible throwing away of lives), to continue it would surely deal a dangerous blow to USA economics, to stop it would cause an international disaster.
05-21-2008, 06:31
Africanvs
Re: Physical Fitness: Ancient vs. Modern
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red_Russian13
You haven't done a lot of modern soldiering, have you?
While we might not do as much back-breaking labor as soldiers in antiquity, we did plenty of on-duty exercising, and are encouraged to do a great deal of PT on our own time (at least in the Marine Corps). Sure, some play video games, but didn't legionaries play dice or something as well? They didn't spend all their time marching or erecting field fortifications.
I also believe, though do not have the figures handy, that modern combat soldiers carry as much or more than many soldiers did in antiquity. Vehicles are great, and necessary to compete in today's fast-paced battlefield, but ammo is heavy. As are the weapons. Pulling a trigger isn't all a modern soldier does physically. We did our fair share of 20 mile marches while in garrison too. I believe that the physical rigors of modern soldiering are far greater than you might think. I'm not saying we're physically better, but I think we could compete.
That basically sums it up Red_Russian, nice post. I'd like to add a couple of points to the discussion if I may.
The first has to do with nutrition. I would say the nutrition and overall health of a modern soldier is much better. The Romans basically subsisted off of grain which they would make into a little bread meal whenever they stopped to eat. Additionally, Romans ate olive oil which gave them an extra calorie load helping them to dominate the world. I wonder how long I'd last eating only bread. I've always wondered how people were able to subsist off of this limited diet.
My second point is based on the overall type of training. Modern training is centered on cardio and endurance. While todays weaponry can weigh as much as ancient weapons, especially when you add the ammo, it isn't as if we have to swing it around most of the time. Usually we're inserting a mag and pulling a trigger. Unless the "s" hits the fan we shouldn't have to use the 16 as a club. Modern soldiers however are still expected to be able to sprint, hike long distances with gear, and drag friendly troops from harm's way. By the way fireman carrying a guy with full deuce gear and weapon up a hill is a bitch.
I think ancient warriors however were different. If you look at a Kelt swinging a heavy Gallic sword, strength would be very important, and they probably got plenty strong just fighting and practicing. Romans on the other hand used a thrusting sword and did a lot of marching, where speed and endurance would be more useful. Strength never hurts of course. By the way, before Marius, Roman troops didn't have to carry much at all, aside from their arms so they could probably move rather quickly.
Bottom line, I am quite sure that if a modern soldier were to travel back in time they would be much stronger and larger of stature due to their excellent nutrition. After some proper training in ancient combat, they could hold their own I'm sure. I'd like to think that even in Roman times the centurion would form his men up and take them on a run around the camp, singing some sort of cadence in the process, just like now. PT not only promotes fitness, but discipline as well.
As for what legionaries were doing off duty. I'd imagine whoring, gambling, and drinking. The truth is, the life of an ancient soldier was probably much like the life of a modern one. Superiors playing games with you, tough PT, strict discipline, and a lot of hurry up and wait.
05-21-2008, 07:31
Cartaphilus
Re: Physical Fitness: Ancient vs. Modern
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red_Russian13
I disagree. Modern armies can and will forage for food (though plundering is strongly discouraged by most Western armies), and survival training provides the common soldier with skills necessary to live off the land to varying degrees. Granted, this is not generally needed because logistics have made it so vast numbers of men can be adequately supplied, for the most part.
Modern armies were trained to live on the field but they usually don't apply that, and I don't believe that a whole army was able to do it now.
But the ancient soldiers had not any other form to subsist in a campaign.
The legionaries had some food in their baggage but it was scarce and they had to be able to survive in a enemy country.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red_Russian13
I see your point here, but take issue with it. Combat stress and the damage it causes was not wholly unknown to the ancients. If I recall, this is why commanders had the triarii sit or kneel and why they had space between engaged components of a legion and reserves. Additionally, the sights, sounds, and smells of the modern battlefield would completely psychologically wreck a legionary; that type of warfare would be beyond his imagination. Modern training acknowledges that the modern battlefield is tough mentally and attempts to mitigate this through realistic training. "Shell shock" and PTSD were relatively undiagnosed until WWI, but it is impossible to say that some form of psychological trauma didn't exist for Romans. Surely, they were far more inured to death as it was common, but the human psyche couldn't have changed so drastically to have allowed Romans and Carthaginians to escape fear of blood and carnage. I'm reasonably sure more than one legionary defecated and/or urinated himself, and it's entirely possible that he would have also experienced nightmares or flashbacks.
It's obviouos that no all ancient men were valiant and the some knew the "shell shock", but I believe that it is more related to the modern men, and modern war.
Think that most of these ancient men lived war a natural thing, and a noble occupation for the free men.
Now, how many soldiers prefer returning home over the shield than wihout it?
It's not the same thing for boys that they were forced to fight and die in the trenches for thousands as in the IWW.
Archilochos has win in the end.
PD: I think that Hannibal or Caesar didn't doubt to "nuke" if they could. The ancient generals were not so scrupulous with human rights than us. And if they had to exterminate a city or a whole "nation" they did it and slept well at night. Their mental war schemes were more related to the Stalin's or Hitler's ones (and Bonaparte's) than to Amnisty International.
05-21-2008, 07:38
Cartaphilus
Re: Physical Fitness: Ancient vs. Modern
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenrhyl
Actually, a good deal of those countries questioned it even before it started. It is absolutely not related to the number of dead soldiers during the war (but could be related to the number of dead civilians, as far as Europe is concerned), but to its actual goal, motivation and benefit. To start it was hazardous at best (some would say incredibly stupid, anyway a terrible throwing away of lives), to continue it would surely deal a dangerous blow to USA economics, to stop it would cause an international disaster.
I wasn't speaking about if that war was just or not.
But the impact of one single coffin covered with the banner is huge on the people's moral.
In the World Wars the soldiers died for milions and no one wanted the peace till they had not really won or lost the war. The media forced the USA to retreat in Vietnam and it could happen again in Irak.
05-21-2008, 09:36
Power2the1
Re: Physical Fitness: Ancient vs. Modern
Seems that Celts definitely valued physical fitness. The classical writers mentioned that if the belly/girdle of a young man exceeded a certain size, he would be fined.
The descriptions of the gaesatae at Telamon, as I'm sure most of us have read, mention the warriors out front, all in the prime of life and finely built men.
From what I've read, it seems the ancient world placed much value on excellent physical form (Greek/Roman statures for example), though obviously not everyone aspired or achieved such great physical standards. Just my own little two cents. ~:)
05-21-2008, 09:41
Cambyses
Re: Physical Fitness: Ancient vs. Modern
Cartaphilus,
I suspect you might be assuming that modern soldiers have much the same thinking process as civilians in relation to the battlefield. I strongly suspect this is not the case. There are plenty of people out there who would be just as excited getting their first combat kill as the average Celtic youth. But yes general attitudes to war have changed significantly since WW1. And given how devastating modern war is to entire countries (note, not just battlefields and the odd city sacking etc) I think that change was probably inevitable and entirely positive. The nature of war has totally changed in the last 100 odd years. Excluding a significant technological revolution I cant imagine we will ever see another major war of conquest on this planet again. It would be too expensive to justify if for no other reason.
Yes, I am aware that ancient warfare could be enitrely gruesome. eg Marius's slaughter of the ?Cimbri?, The crucifiction of thousands of slaves after Sparticus's defeat. The third Carthaginian War etc. But even at the time these actions were considered remarkable. Usually defeat meant slavery not immediate death to the whole population.
Regarding fitness a modern soldier would surely be at leat the equal of an ancient, due to our better understanding of nutrition, diets etc. Although wearing heavy (bronze) armour all day, charging into battle and having the strength to wield both spear and shield would require an enormous amount of strength and stamina.
Regarding discipline, there is no doubt in my mind that ancient warrior elites had more. The Romans of course were famous for their discipline. But even without them, there are several cultures where the warrrior classes almost actively sought death in battle. Which of course is why militia troops are so inferior to elites. IMO vastly more so than EB shows. Modern warfare has very different needs. The "warrior class" is a much smaller - tiny - percentage of the population. The need to keep these expensive assets alive is key both in the public perception and for military needs.
05-21-2008, 10:19
Cartaphilus
Re: Physical Fitness: Ancient vs. Modern
I agree with you.
But I want to remark that I'm not assuming that in modern armies all the soldiers think as civilians. Obviously many of the professional soldiers don't. And some of them enjoy the war as the old warrior did.
But in the countries where the militar service is obligatory for everyone, the soldiers think as civilians because they are indeed civilians. And they are the main bulk of the army, because the elite (and highly motivated) troopers are few.
My father fought in the spanish civil war and in the 2WW as volunteer (when he was just eighteen), in that time the most part of the youth were eager to fight. But now, how many of you, guys, want to fight in a war? Not me. Not at least in a nasty modern war.
Another question: I admire the ancient warrior spirit, the roman virtus and the oaths that germans (and others) made of die for their lord, or perish if he died in battle. Some of this spirit is still alive in the elite troops. I recomend you to read the spanish legionary "credo", it is inspired in all of this, and indeed in the Bushido. The spanish legion is worth of that name.
1. The spirit of the legionary: It’s unique and with no equal, it’s blind and fierce aggressiveness, always seeking to shorten the distance with the enemy and charge with the bayonet.
2. The spirit of companionship: With the sacred oath of never leave a man in the field till all perish.
3. The spirit of friendship: Of oath between each two men.
4. The spirit of union and help: At the cry of “To me the Legion!”, wherever it was, all they’ll come, and, with or without reason, will defend the legionary that ask for help.
5. The spirit of marching: A legionary will never say that he’s tired, till falling to the ground exhausted. The legion will be the swifter and more resistant corp.
6. The spirit of suffering and toughness: The legionary will not complain of fatigue, nor pain, nor hunger, nor thirst, nor sleep, he will do all the jobs, digging, carrying cannons, he will be detached, he will make convoys, he will work in what they order.
7. The spirit of going to the fire: The Legion (one man or the whole Legion) will go where fire is heard, at day or at night, always, always, although there was not order for that.
8. The spirit of discipline: The legionary will fulfil his duty, he will obey till die.
9. The spirit of combat: The legion will always, always ask to fight, without turn, without counting the days, nor the months, nor the years.
10. The spirit of death: To die in combat is the greatest honour. We only die once. Death comes without pain and to die is not so horrible as it seems. The most horrible thing is to live like a coward.
11. The banner of the Legion: It’s the most glorious, because it’s dyed with the blood of its legionaries.
12. All the legionary men are brave: Each nation has fame of bravery; here it’s necessary to demonstrate what people is the most valiant.
05-21-2008, 11:02
QuintusSertorius
Re: Physical Fitness: Ancient vs. Modern
Quote:
Originally Posted by Africanvs
The first has to do with nutrition. I would say the nutrition and overall health of a modern soldier is much better. The Romans basically subsisted off of grain which they would make into a little bread meal whenever they stopped to eat. Additionally, Romans ate olive oil which gave them an extra calorie load helping them to dominate the world. I wonder how long I'd last eating only bread. I've always wondered how people were able to subsist off of this limited diet.
No they didn't subsist on bread alone. With normal supply conditions, legionaries had a mixed diet of grain, meat and vegetables. Indeed one of the major advantages Roman soldiers had over their contemporaries was their massively superior supply arrangements which kept them well sustained during the campaigning season.
05-21-2008, 13:09
Cambyses
Re: Physical Fitness: Ancient vs. Modern
I do understand Spanish.
It is a remarkable credo, and quite interesting that its still in use as it appears to date fom some time ago. This "band of brothers" attitude is powerful stuff.
Y tu traduccion fue mas que bien para los demas. Siempre sea dificil capturar la emocion de la original en otra idioma.
05-21-2008, 13:13
Red_Russian13
Re: Physical Fitness: Ancient vs. Modern
Quote:
Originally Posted by Africanvs
As for what legionaries were doing off duty. I'd imagine whoring, gambling, and drinking. The truth is, the life of an ancient soldier was probably much like the life of a modern one. Superiors playing games with you, tough PT, strict discipline, and a lot of hurry up and wait.
Africanvs;
Excellent points. It also warms my heart to know that since the beginning of war, soldiers have been doing the same crap that I did. It's quite the bonding experience, isn't it?
05-21-2008, 13:23
Cartaphilus
Re: Physical Fitness: Ancient vs. Modern
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cambyses
I do understand Spanish.
It is a remarkable credo, and quite interesting that its still in use as it appears to date fom some time ago. This "band of brothers" attitude is powerful stuff.
Y tu traduccion fue mas que bien para los demas. Siempre sea dificil capturar la emocion de la original en otra idioma.
Thank you.
The credo has its origin in the Legion beginnings in the 20s of the XX century.
But it wanted to recreate the spirit of the spanish armies of old, the glorious Tercios, when Spain was an empire and not the mess that is today.
The Legion (and some elite forces more) are the finest troops of the spanish army. And as far as I know, this spirit is somehow still alive in them.
05-21-2008, 23:36
Africanvs
Re: Physical Fitness: Ancient vs. Modern
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red_Russian13
Excellent points. It also warms my heart to know that since the beginning of war, soldiers have been doing the same crap that I did. It's quite the bonding experience, isn't it?
Indeed sir.
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius
No they didn't subsist on bread alone. With normal supply conditions, legionaries had a mixed diet of grain, meat and vegetables. Indeed one of the major advantages Roman soldiers had over their contemporaries was their massively superior supply arrangements which kept them well sustained during the campaigning season.
They were given supplements on occasio or replacements when their grain was running short but to say they had a mixed diet may be overstatement. I am also certain that as soldiers were levied from different provinces in the empire they would bring their native dietary habits with them and the diet was probably different in republican and imperial Rome. Here is an exerpt from a Roman site on the net as a quick reference.
The Army
Apart from at the banquets of the rich, meat was rarely a part of the Roman diet.
The diet of the Roman army, shows us much about the Roman ideas of nutrition. The Roman word for wheat is frumentum. And it was the same word which eventually came to describe army rations itself. Generally the army ration consisted of little else than wheat. The soldiers themselves then ground the grain they were given and made it into things such as porridge or bread.
Whenever possible the monotonous army diet was naturally supplemented with whatever came to hand. Pork, fish, chicken, cheese, fruit or vegetables. But the basic ration of frumentum always formed the basis of the diet. So much so, that if in times of supply difficulties the grain would fail to reach the troops and instead other foodstuffs (even meat !) were handed out, there would be discontent among the ranks.
Naturally the officers of the army enjoyed a more versatile diet. Archaeologists working along Hadrian's Wall in northern Britain discovered records for the household of a commander of a fort from around AD 100. These records listed choice cuts of pork, even piglet, chicken, venison, anchovies, oysters, eggs, radishes, apples, lentils, beans, lard and butter.
All that quote tells us is that grain was a staple. Which it is, even in modern diets.
I'm reading Goldsworthy's biography of Caesar, and he even makes reference to erroneous translations that implied legionaries were vegetarian, for example. He's also keen to point out that privation is noted at times where they don't have a balanced diet available to them, but generally late Republican armies were well-supplied with a varied diet.
05-22-2008, 00:06
NeoSpartan
Re: Physical Fitness: Ancient vs. Modern
Physical Fitness: Ancient vs. Modern??????
Same, I am not joking.
All the arguments I've read so far are about different variables in regards to nutrition, training, supplements, education, madical care, etc....
BUT if you put all variables aside, we are still the same SOBs who fight eachother and use the environment to fit our wants/needs.
if u take a modern man and put him through say "Legionary School" (whatever training just making up a term here), as long as that individual is determined, couragous, and believes in what he is doing, he will be just as good as the other guys (and better than some).
Same story the other way around.
NOW.... if your asking about a Homo sapien vs a Homo erectus, then yeah there will be some MAJOR differences.
05-22-2008, 00:23
Africanvs
Re: Physical Fitness: Ancient vs. Modern
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius
All that quote tells us is that grain was a staple. Which it is, even in modern diets....but generally late Republican armies were well-supplied with a varied diet.
Actually no, it tells a lot more than that. It tells you that 1) Generally the army ration consisted of little else than wheat, and 2) Whenever possible the monotonous army diet was naturally supplemented with whatever came to hand. Key word, whenever possible.
If you have read somewhere that late-republican armies were well-supplied with a varied diet more often than not, I'd like to know where you found the information. Keep in mind, there is a difference between what an army can get in garrison, and while campaigning. As far as the vegitarian thing, there is archaeological evidence to show they ate meat, but it is clear that this would be difficult in the summer months in the absence of salt. There are varied opinions about diet in general, but are you saying they had nutrition equal to ours in the 21st century? Many documented cases of scurvy among the legions would contradict.
05-22-2008, 00:59
QuintusSertorius
Re: Physical Fitness: Ancient vs. Modern
Quote:
Originally Posted by Africanvs
There are varied opinions about diet in general, but are you saying they had nutrition equal to ours in the 21st century? Many documented cases of scurvy among the legions would contradict.
No, I'm not saying anything of the sort. You're the one conflating "they didn't subsist on wheat alone" with "they had diets equivalent to ours in the 21st century".
Goldsworthy's specific reference on the diet of the legion is R. Davies, 'The Roman Military Diet', in R. Davies, Service in the Roman Army (1989). When talking of the siege of Avaricum and the shortages of food, he notes:
Quote:
The persistent myth that Roman legionaries were vegetarian is based on a misunderstanding of this and a couple of other passages. Normally they ate a balanced diet of meat, grain and vegetables. What was exceptional in this case was that they were receiving only meat, not that they were eating it at all.
Later he talks about the siegeworks at Dyracchium:
Quote:
Caesar's men were short of food, for it was still winter by the natural seasons even if by the calendar it was well into spring. Livestock was plentiful, so meat was usually available and came to form a greater than usual proportion of the diet.
Here he cites Plutarch and Appian.
05-22-2008, 04:13
Africanvs
Re: Physical Fitness: Ancient vs. Modern
This has prompted me to do a bit more research into the subject and it seems you're quite correct about the balanced diet of the Roman soldier. That's why I love these forums, I'm always learning something. :)
05-22-2008, 04:22
Cyclops
Re: Physical Fitness: Ancient vs. Modern
Very interesting point. I love red Russian's point about shell shock: its a whole aspect of battlefield suffering no-one in the ancient world could've dreamed of. I imagine 'tank fright" would've been like "elephant fright" and the Romans had a bit of "bolt shock" at Syracuse when Archimedes was tormenting them, but warriors unused to firearms have been known to freak out, wet themselves and faint when shot at. I recall an interview with a New Guinean warrior who was shot at by an Aussie explorer (first white fella in the Highlands) and he fessed up with a smile.
I think we modern westerners are generally softer than our ancient kin, catching vehicle transport and massively over-eating. that New Guinea bloke could've walked me into the ground ten times over at the age of 70.
I think our soldiers are harder than most but for endurance and pain tolerance an ordinary roman citizen or subject would have 90% of us beat. however as for physical fitness the majority of us are healthy, disease, parasite and injury free and well nourished to a degree unkown in ancient times.
I guess our professional athletes and elite soldiers would be superior to the ancients given our wealth (they can dedicate more time to training, never worry about famine) and technology (medicine, physio, nutrition and performance enhancing drugs).
I used to argue with my dad about modern footballers vs the heroes of the 1930's. In Aussie Rules the average height has gone up 10 cms or more: men who played ruckman in the past (=centre, tallest man in the team) would be short as a midfielder now (=point guard, often the shortest).
He said yes but the oldies were tougher, endured their knocks better, walked everywhere, did manual labour. I think it was rosy glasses on his part. You can see from the old footage they ran slower, moved less often, contested less and got up slower (and no its not just the old newsreel running at 75% speed). So while the fellas in the 30's were fitter than me, they're not fitter than the elites. Same with the ancients I reckon.
We are a lazy lot in modern society but we have the potential and the opportunity to make ourselves fitter than most of the ancients dreamed of.
That said I reckon the citizen rowers in silver age Athens must have been a buffed and burly lot. I'd bet the crew of an average quinquereme could take on the entire WWF (or whatever that laughable fake wrestling crap is called) and smash them in a cage fight.:smash:
05-22-2008, 04:29
Africanvs
Re: Physical Fitness: Ancient vs. Modern
Quote:
That said I reckon the citizen rowers in silver age Athens must have been a buffed and burly lot. I'd bet the crew of an average quinquereme could take on the entire WWF (or whatever that laughable fake wrestling crap is called) and smash them in a cage fight.:smash:
Ha! Wouldn't that be a sight. Yeah rowers must have been in great shape. I bet gladiators were too, and I don't mean those condemned to death in the arena, but the real ones. They would have been the equivalent of our professional athletes. They probably just worked out and trained to fight all day, and ate the best food available in the city they were in.
05-22-2008, 16:07
Obelics
Re: Physical Fitness: Ancient vs. Modern
could be im just pessimistic, but i would bet all my money on the ancients...
If i just go back to the generation of my grandfather, i can see how those people were thoughter than my generation. Yes we have training etc. but im sure with all those muscle mass we have (not me, but i say in general fitness people) after 1 day of march, we would have a dramatic dawngrade on the glucosius in the blood, we would feel like a pricked balloon...
to make a metaphor, id say we are like breeding chickens, while i see, 2 or 3 generation ago, they were like farmyard chickens...
there is a big difference, if you eat a breeding chicken meat, you will see his meat has no colour, it has no flavour, and it's very soft and the meat will detach from the bones with no difficulty.
if you eat a farmyard chicken, you will see that its meat is dark, it's hard to masticate, but it has a lot of flavour, and it detach very difficulty from the bones... another planet.
Id say that the few remaining farmyard chickens in humankind, are the immigrants from the poorer countrys, so im very favourable to the mixing up of the peoples, and to the mixed marriages, like the germans in the roman empire, they brought a lot of fresh new blood... they were a godsent.
ok im just so prejudicial...:sweatdrop:
And i can read even a bit of "Millenaristic":whip: spirit in my post... wow could be im getting old...:laugh4:
05-22-2008, 17:16
Cartaphilus
Re: Physical Fitness: Ancient vs. Modern
My girlfriend is russian, so I'm definitely for the mixing of bloods. Hehe.
Slavian girls are awesome.
:sweatdrop:
05-23-2008, 12:57
Baktrion Agema
Re: Physical Fitness: Ancient vs. Modern
I would say that our fittest are fitter than their fittest, thanks to better nutrition and sports science etc, but on average they would be far more fit than todays westerners, as todays couch potatoes would no have survived back then.
05-23-2008, 13:02
QuintusSertorius
Re: Physical Fitness: Ancient vs. Modern
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baktrion Agema
I would say that our fittest are fitter than their fittest, thanks to better nutrition and sports science etc, but on average they would be far more fit than todays westerners, as todays couch potatoes would no have survived back then.
Your second point would only be relevant if we were comparing their average citizen with our average citizen.
05-23-2008, 15:22
Cambyses
Re: Physical Fitness: Ancient vs. Modern
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baktrion Agema
I would say that our fittest are fitter than their fittest, thanks to better nutrition and sports science etc, but on average they would be far more fit than todays westerners, as todays couch potatoes would no have survived back then.
Indeed and many of the ancients did not survive "back then" either, child mortality, death during child birth, death from many minor illnesses we could cure easily today, being enslaved and sent into the mines etc etc. it would be misleading to describe it as survival of the fittest as many of the premature deaths would have been quite random.
Unless of course you were part of the lowe-end elite in which case being a coach potato was as good an option then as it is now!
05-23-2008, 19:02
Theodotos I
Re: Physical Fitness: Ancient vs. Modern
Wow, what a discussion I started! Very interesting. My salute to Red Russian. I admire and respect anyone who has served in our armed forces, particularly the USMC. You guys are tough. However, not everyone in the US or world military trains as hard as the Marines. A balloon for your input, sir. :balloon2:
Oo-rah!
05-23-2008, 20:59
Jaume
Re: Physical Fitness: Ancient vs. Modern
I would chose probably ancient fitness based on my love in idealist Platos education: calm music and fitness to make a well-balanced soul. And the greeks didn't eat so badly... yogurt, cheese and lots of wine with water. :beam:
05-23-2008, 23:04
Vorian
Re: Physical Fitness: Ancient vs. Modern
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaume
I would chose probably ancient fitness based on my love in idealist Platos education: calm music and fitness to make a well-balanced soul. And the greeks didn't eat so badly... yogurt, cheese and lots of wine with water. :beam:
Add bread, olives and fish too.
05-23-2008, 23:23
Iustinus
Re: Physical Fitness: Ancient vs. Modern
Hold on a sec....
I don't have much time as I'm about to go (and be gone for the next three days) but I don't agree that nutrition is better today than two millennia ago. Sure, in some cases; but even the bread back in the day had more nutritional value. Stuff was waaaayyyyy less processed. And most importantly, while most ancient armies did subsist largely on bread or mush, their diet was supplemented with various greens and other vegetables (season permitting) that they gathered on the road, besides the occasional meat, fish, wine, etc. People think we have a varied diet now. We eat a much smaller variety of fruits and vegetables now than our ancestors did (I speak mostly for Americans and Europeans, I'm sure it's different in other parts of the world.)
Yeah yeah, tomatoes, potatoes, wheat, bananas, apples, grapes, etc etc etc.
How many of you eat chickory? Dandelions? Plantain? Amaranth? Flours made from chestnuts, buckwheat, etc etc.
In the end, I think that in many cases nutrition was better two thousand years ago than now.
05-23-2008, 23:30
alatar
Re: Physical Fitness: Ancient vs. Modern
But we hit all the nutrition we need, ancients did not alot of the time.
And processed food does not mean bad food, look at survival rations, everything you need to live, which is more that ancient armies had.
05-23-2008, 23:47
Vorian
Re: Physical Fitness: Ancient vs. Modern
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iustinus
Hold on a sec....
I don't have much time as I'm about to go (and be gone for the next three days) but I don't agree that nutrition is better today than two millennia ago. Sure, in some cases; but even the bread back in the day had more nutritional value. Stuff was waaaayyyyy less processed. And most importantly, while most ancient armies did subsist largely on bread or mush, their diet was supplemented with various greens and other vegetables (season permitting) that they gathered on the road, besides the occasional meat, fish, wine, etc. People think we have a varied diet now. We eat a much smaller variety of fruits and vegetables now than our ancestors did (I speak mostly for Americans and Europeans, I'm sure it's different in other parts of the world.)
Yeah yeah, tomatoes, potatoes, wheat, bananas, apples, grapes, etc etc etc.
How many of you eat chickory? Dandelions? Plantain? Amaranth? Flours made from chestnuts, buckwheat, etc etc.
In the end, I think that in many cases nutrition was better two thousand years ago than now.
It's like that:
2,000 years ago major cause of death was either malnutrition or simple diseases and infections
Today major cause of death is too much nutrition and cancer from all the s***t we produce
In 2000 years it will be the gladiator games of the alien invaders.:help: