Oh, this latest discussion is still very scientific, in a way :yes: :study:Quote:
Originally Posted by Centurio Nixalsverdrus
Printable View
Oh, this latest discussion is still very scientific, in a way :yes: :study:Quote:
Originally Posted by Centurio Nixalsverdrus
now im even more confused... I must say that in "real life" im enough sure, that Tanga in Italy is not used much like in the 80's and 90's, or at last i dont hear it that much, while perizoma is the word more common. The problem is, given my curiosity, i checked some of my paper dictionaris and some wikis on the internet. Well, there are two different wiki pages, one for "tanga" and one for "perizoma". Both pages says that "you have not to confond a tanga with a perizoma, cause people tend to confuse it" but then, in both pages there are the same pictures of the exact identical indument, So what's the difference?
In the "Tanga" wikipedia page, it says that a tanga differs from a perizoma, cause it can be just a subtile and thin line that divides the two part of the back.
in the "Perizoma" wikipedia page, it says that a perizoma differs from a tanga, for the exact same things, it can be just a subtile and thin line etc.
Boh? who knows.
anyway here's a summarization: Tanga as Centurion says is a Brasilian word. While Thong is a word that seems to come from the old english. So Tanga and Thong are not related, but both can refer to the same thing. "Thong" obviously seems more spreaded in the anglo-saxon world, while Tanga is more spreaded in the remaining countrys, included Germany where they use both the brasilian word + the english "G-string" so: Tanga-String.
In italy we can use both Tanga and Perizoma (of ancient greek ethimology), but Tanga seems (at last from my experience) more used in the 80's 90's (when the fashion of perizomas spreaded at the times, everyone called them Tangas, i was a child and i remember it, now that they are used even as underwear pants, it seems that the word perizoma, is more used, and it tend to cover sometimes the semanthical field of the word Tanga too, that despite seeming the same exact word, it could retain still a minimal difference).
A lesson could be that when a fashion spread, the foreign word, can have a certain success for a certain number of ages (see the cases of Tangas in italian language), but when the new fashion become a more common thing, if you had already a word for that (Perizoma), the original word can take the place of the foreign word (im just inventing here)
I know what you say... that's sad, here's a funny example of the human stupidity, taken by my language:Quote:
Originally Posted by Centurio Nixalsverdrus
In the Italian University they are spreading this "Tutors". Who is a tutor? it's just a guy who helps students etc.
Now tutor is an English word taken exactly from Latin. Well, you can imagine we have already our own evolution of the latin "tutor", this evolution is the italian word "tutore" (in fact the italian tend to use the ancient latin case "ablative" for almost all words). So now we have two different word.
The first one "tutor" is taken from english who taken it from latin, and it is used in the university.
The second one is the "natural" evolution of the latin word "tutor" and it is "tutore". It is used to indicate a guy who take care of an orphan as it was his father. Infact tutor is somwhat similar to a sort of auxiliary.
So the question is, if we, being italian an evolutio of latin, have already the word "tutore", that is the direct evolution of the latin "tutor" why we had to import a latin/english word from english that is the same exact latin word? couldn't we just use the italian word "tutore" for both meanings, one for the Uni, and one for the parental aid?
another example is this stupid word "forum" (internet forum). We, at some time had this need to use the english word "forum" that is the latin word "forum", while we have alpretty and ready the direct italian evolution of the latin word, and this word is "foro" (as i sayd italin evolved to use almost all ablative cases). So why not to say foro?
Just for curiousity i went to check a "spanish" forum, and with my huge surprise, do you know how the spanish call the internet forum? they call it "foro"!!!
So that's the demonstration that the spanish are more intelligent than us...
Even more ridiculous, is that the smart big baron professors want you to use the plural "fora" (while you have to explain them that they are not being so smart, they are just talking "english"), in fact the italian plural should be "fori", cause the neuter pluralia in "a", in the modern italian is lost. While in middle ages italian we still used for example the plural Castella, now it's Castelli (Castle).
So if i say "fora" im not talking correct italian (that is the "modern" latin). Im just speaking both "ancient latin" and "modern english"
^^rant warning above^^
Well, „forum” is perfectly acceptable in Romanian as a recent Latin/Romance language borrowing, even though there is the native „for”. This doubling is quite common (ager-agil, drept-direct...), though it's odd because it comes from English, and keeps the original „-um” termination.
yes ah i know, the perizoma/tanga thing was just to loose time... i was joking a bit on the hightly scientific discussion about this important clothes:whip:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayce
anyway about the double words, that was enought common in history, and as we see it is still common, what it seems odd to me is that the actual vehicle of spreading this "new" double words (except some cases like the word "forum" who has been spreaded from the "low") there are a lot of other "new" double words (the example of "tutor") who has been spreaded by the "hight" so by people who is supposed to be the more cultured... that's odd.
Oh yes they are indeed the most intelligent of all. Not a single word is there that reaches the Spanish language un-destroyed and not adapted to Spanish orthography. Not even names! Alberto Durero = Albrecht Dürer; Carlos Linneo = Carl von Linné; Nueva York; etc...Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelics
Carlos Linneo? Hilarious.
ok, at a first view, it seems to be a bit at the borders of the chauvinism... but we have to say that a lot of names were latinized at the times by the guys themselves, so could be enough "normal" that they are become famous in the latin countries by their latinized names.Quote:
Originally Posted by Centurio Nixalsverdrus
Carl Nilsson Linnaeus===> latinized: Carolus Linnaeus (it is still Linneo in italian too)
Geert Geertsz ===> Desiderius Erasmus Rotterdamus (spanish and Italian Erasmo da Rotterdam, he has become famous in the lazinized form in english too "Erasmus of Rotterdam")
regarding the spanish "Nueva York" italian"Nuova York" i have to say that it has been always "Nuova York" in italian too, but now everyone uses "New York", so id call the spanish case a little miracle if they still retain the old word "Nueva York".
anyway i dont want to overpass the limits of the chauvinism, but some little things like "foro" or to talk of somethink different, the french "ordinateur"/"logiciel" etc (for "computer" and "software"), are much more intelligent for me (really i dont see them like an act of chauvinism).
I demand this thread being awarded the Best-Thread-Hijacking-Ever-Award! :laugh4:
Regarding the latinisation or generally the "translation" of names to one's language... it was perfectly normal a few centuries ago and those translations remain until today (for example the French kings called Louis are still today called "Ludwig" in German). It would be quite funny to translate some more recent politician's name into different languages... take for example George Bush jr. or to think about Charles de Gaulle. :laugh4:
Man, I could give you examples of translations of German city/village names in South Tyrol inot Italian that would really make you roll on the floor with laughter (this was a quite polemic political topic favoured by nationalists on both sides around here...). ;)
Regarding the term "italiota"... I always thought it was kind of a fusion of "italiano" and "idiota" thus meaning "a person who is a stereotypical italian and an idiota".
hmmm... regarding the hijack thing, i think im the only one here to have an almost whole AAR posted in the thread opened by another member....
could be, ive thought of that too, but i have my doubts, lets try to expand a bit the "Italiote" case, taking another similar case:Quote:
Originally Posted by machinor
There are thise two words (i use the english equivalents here) Italiote and Italic
Italiote: greek speaking inhabitants of Magna Grecia
Italic: ancient Italian peoples (Oscan, Umbrians, Etruscans, Latin, Samnites, Volsci etc.)
those above are the scientific meanings, and they are written under an "1" on the dictionary.
Now both the words have in modern italian a second "popular" meaning (while they still retain the first scientifical meaning). It is written usually under a number "2" on the dictionary.
Both the second meaning for both words is a bit "downgraging" and related to stereotype, BUT, with a minimal difference. What is this difference?
I will explain it with an example on 2 identical sentences.
A) "here we see the typical Italic family (famiglia italica) in its car, that is going to sea-bath with all their saucepans full of foods wine etc."
B) "here we see the typical Italiota family (famiglia italiota) in its car, that is going to sea-bath with all their saucepans full of foods wine etc."
the 2 sentences are identical except for the use of the two different words "italic" and "italiote"
both the two sentences in italian, are trying to make some critics on the costumes of the tipical medium italian who use to take with him every thing, from the sausepans to the coffee machine and foods etc. even if he is going to the sea-beach. (this is a stereotypal image from some 60's 70's and movies like "The Easy Life" "I Mostri" etc.
Now both sentences "apparently" are downgrading the thing, but there is a difference.
In the sentence A, the use of the word Italico/italici (italic), is intend to give the scene, an appearence of "false glory", that's were the critic start. It is a joke on the fascist use of the word "italic" everywhere. So the real meaning is:
A) here the glorious italic family who is going to the sea-beach with all their glorious saucepans, coffee machines, wine etc... the humour here is the joke on a "rightist" stereotype.(if we want to use a political language)
in the sentence B, the use of the word Italiota/italioti (italiote), is intended to interpretate the scene in a more "simpathetic" view. If we want to use a political language, we would say that is a more "Leftist" view. The sense is:
B) here the good old italian family who is going to the sea-beach with all their poor saucepans, coffee machines, wine etc... they are good people, and theiy are exerciting their rights to have their good sea bath on the beach, despite they have still this use to take everything with them.
So if im using the sentence A, im joking on the stereotype of the old Italian Virtus (a sentence much used during the fascism)
If im using the sentence B, im joking (in a more leftist way) on a stereopthipe of the Echonomical Boom period, every one has the right to have its sea bath day on Sunday.
So that's to say, that when i say "italiota" im still downgrading it, but im being at the same time "simpatethic" with it.
So in my first example (that of the 2 italiotes connationals on the Kroatian sea-beach, im not saying they are 2 idiots, im just joking on their being simpletons, in a simpathetic way (some time with a slight point of envy, cause i have not the courage to stop random girls on the streets, and i would never wear a thong and sunglasses in my life, and i admit that it could be a simpleton, but they are having some fun in their own).
So in conclusion the first word "italic" is used to ironyze on the relics of a "glorious past" (fascist rethorics).
The second word "italiote" is used in a way more maternalistic and simpathetic. (using a political language, it is a more leftist way to joke at them)
But still the two word are used in a downgrading meaning.
hmmm, that is too much invitating... here's a few of my proposals, lets take the example of Bush:Quote:
Originally Posted by machinor
italian/ pseudo-spanish
bush==> something related with trees and grass, so:
Giorgio Silvano
Giorgio Erboso (the grassy)
bush==>something related with "hairy" "hairs"
Giorgio Peloso (the hairy)
Giorgio Pelo
Giorgio Pilu (pilo/pelo means the single hair, yes it is the same of "pilum/pila" of the legionaries)
bush==>something related with that "thing"
Giorgio Figa:clown:
bush==>something related with that "hairy thing"
Giorgio Figa Pelosa or Giorgio Topa Pelosa:clown:
pseudo-spanish:
Giorgio de la Vulva Pelosa:clown: