Re: Thureophoroi or Peltastai?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
gamegeek2
Thureophoroi and Keltohellenikoi Hoplitai are probably my fave infantry in the game. I have done amazing things with these units. I would gladly pay up to 50/100 more per turn for them.
Yes, I knew we had forgotten something there... Keltohellenikoi hoplitai are great for any battles where they don't have to hold the line for too long. I use them more as main line infantry though when compared to thureophoroi - they *feel* a bit slower and their formation "behaves" more like that of the h. iphikratides - however with the speed of thorakitai hoplitai.
So alltogether, they are a bit sluggish, but they definitely hold a line for a while and they positively rule against any lighter infantry without falxes. Besides, they make for great role-playing elements in armies.
Re: Thureophoroi or Peltastai?
If you really think these guys are good, you really gotta try balearic slingers. Seriously man, for guys that just throw rocks, they cause some nasty casualties.
One of my favorite missiles troops, but i still prefer Cretan or Syrian archers.
Re: Thureophoroi or Peltastai?
Using the units to the best of their advantages are a must, and can become very valuable.
For example:
Akonistai: I love these guys, and they're very important in the early game. They carry a good number of javelins and have fairly good stamina since they don't have any heavy armor to carry. When they're deployed on hills, their javelins cause massive casualties on enemies below (as all missile units do on elevated surfaces). But when they are used to attack an enemy from behind, they'll send a very large storm of javelins and then flood an enemy afterward, often breaking morale from sheer numbers.
Peltastai: They're very good when it comes to sneaking behind enemy lines, mostly because they stay together better as a unit, so they won't get clotheslined by the enemies they're supposed to be running past. Their survivability is better and can stand up to the task of flanking moderately-armed opponents.
Thureophoroi: I do not tend to use the these units as often as I should. Often my militaries consist of their Thorakitai brethren instead. But the thureophoroi are good flankers that can handle tougher units than the peltastai in hand-to-hand combat. I tend to use them to keep an enemy busy for the critical seconds I need in order to prepare a cavalry charge or outflank them with another javelin-armed unit. Still, these are valuable units, and can hold a line for a fair amount of time when traditional line-infantry are scarce in an area.
Re: Thureophoroi or Peltastai?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BurningEGO
If you really think these guys are good, you really gotta try balearic slingers. Seriously man, for guys that just throw rocks, they cause some nasty casualties.
One of my favorite missiles troops, but i still prefer Cretan or Syrian archers.
Yes, that is very very true. Still, playing KH you have no immediate access to the baleares; better go with rhodian slingers until the campaign progresses to the western islands, but you also need to decide at the beginning of the game if you want to max MIC or civic structures - or the naval base on Rhodos (both due to looong construction times and high construction costs). I was rather referring to the starting phase of the game. During this, sphendonetai are the best missile unit you can possibly get (other than mercs, but then look at recruitment cost, upkeep, and do a cost-benefit-calculation). So if you are not bent on making the same mistakes the classical greeks made (or you *are* bent on exploiting an inaccuracy in game mechanics maybe), your first battle-winner is a southern --as in not Makedonian-- hammer+anvil, with your general as the anvil, sphendonetai as the distance-hammer, and h. haploi as the shock-cooling water-bucket. The heaviest difference to the Makedonian variant and the thureophoroi-variant is that you must flank the enemy with the anvil while the hammer remains stationary. Yes, akontistai are nice, but you lose several of them in every battle if you deploy them aggressively and even in the above mentioned pattern due to their short range, plus they are the priority target of any archers... Better to employ them against those pesky phalanx-without-support stacks that AS never ceases spamming once you move into Mikra Asia.
Re: Thureophoroi or Peltastai?
Well, i rarely use any troops at all when i play with KH, at the start at least. Since your income is terrible, i usually amass my generals and fight most battles with them. These bodyguards are awesome. Specially the spartiates. And the AI is always smart enough to storm Athens rather fast, giving you some free kills and experience.
Re: Thureophoroi or Peltastai?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BurningEGO
Well, i rarely use any troops at all when i play with KH, at the start at least. Since your income is terrible, i usually amass my generals and fight most battles with them. These bodyguards are awesome. Specially the spartiates. And the AI is always smart enough to storm Athens rather fast, giving you some free kills and experience.
WOOOOOT?!
I agree absolutely about the bodyguards, but - Makedonia storming Athenai? In my campaigns it goes like this:
I lay siege to Kydonia, Korinthos and Chalkis in the first turn. In the mean time Makedonia draws its field forces together into a full stack next to Athenai but does nothing.
In the second turn, Chremonides takes Chalkis, Eudamidas takes Korinthos and Areus takes Kydonia; the Makedonians notice that something is smelling funny in Makedonia itself and head up north, out of my territory. So do the KH forces, setting up camp in northern Attike with re-combined forces; any units too badly decimated to be of use in combat go retrain in Athenai.
Third turn => Makedonia comes home and bashes about with Epeiros for a while, even pursuing them into southern Illyria and I set siege to Demetrias.
(...)
By Summer 271BC, Makedonia is no longer a force to be reckoned with - at least not on the western side of the Aegeis (This means I get Pella and they are stuck with the Lesbians in Mytilene).
This is not a fluke; it is recurring standard AI nut-case on my machine, even after several work-related ("I really need to spend less time playing and more time studying") complete disc-wipes and subsequent re-installs ("EB is too strong").
This is what makes me use peltastai a lot more than thureophoroi - by the time I can train thureophoroi, my armies should have already jumped to aid Sinope and eradicated Pontus along with most Seleukid holdings in Mikra Asia. All done with h. haploi, sphendonetai and hippakontistai with peltastai from Sparte serving as elite assault infantry while the FMs hold the h. haploi together and move in wherever the fight gets really nasty or "pin" enemy phalanxes while the peltasts hack them to pieces from behind... Praised be hoplites in "guard"-mode, main battletanks of the iron age (h. haploi would then be IFVs and thureophoroi would, by comparison, resemble an A-10 squadron)...
Re: Thureophoroi or Peltastai?
Well, on VH/VH?
In the first turn i am only able to conquer crete. The AI will always sally forth. Then i go for the Makedonians islands and Korinthos. I am usually able to conquer Korinthos with 4-5 generals afterwards, but only because i am attacked and i beat both armies.
But if i was lucky enough to have avoided the big nasty stack roaming around, the bastards always end up sieging Athens. Last time i played KH i was improving my generals' bodyguard in Athens, and they attacked. Hopefully i managed to burn their ram, and i made short work of all troops that attacked my walls via siege towers. It was a funny battle. 2000 enemies wasted while i only lost a couple of bodyguards. Who after a few turns would be back.
Sadly, i do take more time beating Makedonia in the end. They are usually always roaming around with nasty stacks, which i am only able to beat after i get some extra hoplites (i usually get the speedy ones, cant remember their name).
And while missile troops might be good to cause some extra casualties, i find them terrible when engaging enemies in melee in VH/VH. Specially the most basic of em.
Re: Thureophoroi or Peltastai?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BurningEGO
Well, on VH/VH?
And while missile troops might be good to cause some extra casualties, i find them terrible when engaging enemies in melee in VH/VH. Specially the most basic of em.
No, I play on VH/M. Thinking about getting Darthmod or something, tho - AI does very, very stupid things once I get an army that is actually of roughly equal strength. And of course I never-never use the above mentioned missile troops for melee, except for killing routing enemies or if the AI charges them with a FM so my hoplitai can get there and make short work of them.
Apart from that, my missile troops have the job of taunting the enemy into charging at my lines from a long distance and then waiting until my melee units (by a sort of "manual skirmishing", never fully committing to battle) manage to draw some of the enemy melee units away from the main battle or, even better, manage to get "behind" the enemy line alltogether, making them about-face. Then, they cause considerably more than just a few additional casualties...
I am impressed that you put your generals on wall-fights on VH/VH. Mine sometimes fell off the walls on VH/M. (I mean, VH campaign and M battle). That is why I don't use them for walls anymore, prefer to recruit mercs for that job. Celts with swords. Or h. iphikratides / thorakitai hoplitai.
Actually, the bodyguards got pretty much slaughtered even without wall-drops last time I used them against pezhetairoi... And that was 2 generals on 1 unit of pezhetairoi from both sides on M battle difficulty!
AW: Re: Thureophoroi or Peltastai?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nachtmeister
WOOOOOT?!
I lay siege to Kydonia, Korinthos and Chalkis in the first turn. In the mean time Makedonia draws its field forces together into a full stack next to Athenai but does nothing.
In the second turn, Chremonides takes Chalkis, Eudamidas takes Korinthos and Areus takes Kydonia; the Makedonians notice that something is smelling funny in Makedonia itself and head up north, out of my territory. So do the KH forces, setting up camp in northern Attike with re-combined forces; any units too badly decimated to be of use in combat go retrain in Athenai.
Third turn => Makedonia comes home and bashes about with Epeiros for a while, even pursuing them into southern Illyria and I set siege to Demetrias.
(...)
By Summer 271BC, Makedonia is no longer a force to be reckoned with - at least not on the western side of the Aegeis (This means I get Pella and they are stuck with the Lesbians in Mytilene).
This is not a fluke; it is recurring standard AI nut-case on my machine, even after several work-related ("I really need to spend less time playing and more time studying") complete disc-wipes and subsequent re-installs ("EB is too strong").
Thats sounds typical for campaign difficulty on medium. But on VH they normally attack everything you have. That's why I prefer to play on M/M. You can call me a coward, but i like it if my Arche is in peace with its neighbours:hippie:. Only one faction deserves no peace...:whip:
Edit: They don't attack Athenai on VH? Thats strange, but possible...Artificial Incompetence.
And about the Question "Thurephoroi or Peltastai?": I prefer Thurephoroi, cause they are able to fight against enemy cavalery. That's a very important ability for a flanking unit, you need no "baby-sitter" for them. Peltastai are better for siegebattles. They have more javelines, that means you can cause more damage to the enemy while they attack the walls, and a sword, which makes them better against enemy infantery.
Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam
Re: AW: Re: Thureophoroi or Peltastai?
I've always been partial to making a very narrow column of javelin units or put my units in a chevron with the javelin units near the 'point' so it concentrates their fire in hilarious fashion.