"Millions of Texans are tired of Washington, DC trying to come down here to tell us h

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Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

With regard to the Patriot Act et al, that's precisely why you should never allow governments more powers over anyone's rights, most especially if you happen to agree with the government (ie, they're your party).

The lot you don't agree with will one day come to power, and there's precious few examples of governments giving back powers, whatever they said previously.

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I don't remember where the patriot act gave the government the power to carefully watch people based on their support for abortion rights or any other legitimate political opinion. Are you saying that because we passed a law regulating international and border issues as they relate to the domestic security that we are now responsible for the government using the situation to make conservatives into potential terrorists? I don't remember making liberals into terrorists or suggesting that non-violent activists should be watched or stigmatized for their beliefs.

The advice is good, but misplaced. You are essentially attempting to blame the victim. the Admin is goingto up the ante and they are responsible for that, just as we were responsible for the patriot act. To each his own blame.

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Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff

Are you saying that because we passed a law regulating international and border issues as they relate to the domestic security that we are now responsible for the government using the situation to make conservatives into potential terrorists?

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Have a looky. Especially pay attention to Title II: Surveillance procedures.

It's a law in desperate need of amendment. What amazes me is that it authorizes "roving wiretaps," "sneak and peek" warrants, and any number of other questionable practices, and it still wasn't enough for President 43. They had to go in for warrantless wiretaps. But hey, when's the last time the government abused a power, hm?

I have some vague hope that the Dems will take time to trim back Patriot, but not a lot of hope. They're having a hard enough time just releasing the torture memos, meeting massive pushback from Congressional Repubs and the more retrograde elements of the intelligence community. I can only imagine how Repubs could demagogue the issue if Dems tried to "remove protections." The ads write themselves.

I fear that the Patriot Act is to national politics what the Rockefeller Laws are to New York politics. (That is to say, desperately in need of reform, but nobody wants to take the heat for doing so. Note that the Rockefeller Laws have survived on this basis for 36 years.)

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Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff

I don't remember where the patriot act gave the government the power to carefully watch people based on their support for abortion rights or any other legitimate political opinion. Are you saying that because we passed a law regulating international and border issues as they relate to the domestic security that we are now responsible for the government using the situation to make conservatives into potential terrorists? I don't remember making liberals into terrorists or suggesting that non-violent activists should be watched or stigmatized for their beliefs.

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While most of the Patriot Act was originally intended to address foreign terrorist threats, by defining potential domestic sources of unrest as potential terrorism threats, a number of the provisions in the act allow the government to scutinize U.S. citizens more closely.

You may recall my earlier posts (year + ago) stating my opposition to making the provisions of the Patriot Act permanent. That's one reason why.

Texas governor says secession possible

This is like My birthday, Christmas, Halloween, Thanksgiving all rolled up into a fine aged whiskey then poured into my mouth by Jennifer Love Hewitt and Jesse Spencer. Both of whom are naked. And we're about to DO IT.

Come to think of it I don't want to secede. I just want Obama to have to say something about this in a national interview/press conference. I'd be happy with that.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Texas governor says secession possible

This is like My birthday, Christmas, Halloween, Thanksgiving all rolled up into a fine aged whiskey then poured into my mouth by Jennifer Love Hewitt and Jesse Spencer. Both of whom are naked. And we're about to DO IT.

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It will be funny. He wants to be Lincoln, eh?

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Come to think of it I don't want to secede. I just want Obama to have to say something about this in a national interview/press conference. I'd be happy with that.

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What good will that do?!? :inquisitive:

You would be happy if Obama paid lip service to something he either doesn't give a damn about (especially since this ain't Fall 2010) or something he probably views as being nothing more than a nuisance? In three short months the man has proven he excels in making empty promises and blowing hot air. Even if he is asked about it by a member of the press he'll probably say, "I think it's wonderful that these people are expressing their right to assemble and engage in free speech, yada, yada, yada.... next question."

Or better yet, "Folks, given that we're in Mexico right now I'd rather not talk about that particular issue at this moment in time. I would much rather deal with the pressing issues of trade, immigration reform and the dire consequences of the drug trade and drug cartels and their negative impact on the citizens of Mexico's border towns... blah, blah, blah."

I don't get it, you're yapping for a steak but would be happy just to get a stale dog biscuit plumbed from the dusty, crusty, cushiony depths of the couch?

Oh the Texans... always causing problems to their countries.... :wacko:

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Originally Posted by Spino

I don't get it, you're yapping for a steak but would be happy just to get a stale dog biscuit plumbed from the dusty, crusty, cushiony depths of the couch?

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:yes: It's a no lose situation for me.

Of course, Glenn Beck choosing the Alamo for the tea party was laughable.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

:yes: It's a no lose situation for me.

Of course, Glenn Beck choosing the Alamo for the tea party was laughable.

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Beck is a liability and a hack

Texas won't do anything. Next question.

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Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff

Beck is a liability and a hack

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Agreed, His choice of venue was the only thing worth noting.

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Originally Posted by KarlXII

Texas won't do anything. Next question.

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Says the scared non-Texan

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Says the scared non-Texan

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Seccession will not occur. Texans aren't that stupid.

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Originally Posted by KarlXII

Seccession will not occur. Texans aren't that stupid.

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You really don't know the kind of people you are dealing with here. I know old folks who think a SSN is the mark of the beast and refuse to deal with the "census man"

I'm considered smart and learned. Just consider that I'm in the upper %tile. Now imagine everyone below me.

I love this place, I really do, but just remember.When we kill the mentally retarded the collective IQ of Texas goes down.

The last thing they need is little blonde immigrant who speaks American funny calling them yeller.

According to Einstien human stupidity is (probably) infinite, so I try not to rule out too many possibilites...

I do wish to clarify, I am not calling Texans stupid people, I am simply commenting that nothing will become of this "New Seccession" and that the Texan people are not going to make that decision because they know the consequences of it.

First off Texas is a big place, with a largely agrarian base, and a developing High-Tech Industry Sector. This is both a blessing, and a curse. Most of the Ranchers in Texas depend on Federal Ag. Money to actually prevent them from raising more cattle/crops than they can actually grow, this does two things makes the Rancher's bank account fat and happy which makes them fat and happy, with Texas's independence those Rancher's lose that money, which forces them to raise more Cattle/Crops to supplement the lost income.

Because of the way the American Grocery System Works, we're at a point where holding grain or a meat supply isn't necessary. Because there isn't a feasible supply system in place, and a demand that cannot be met food prices skyrocket, and the logistics of actually putting Food from the Ranches and Farms onto the people's dinner plates becomes problematic, simply because there is more need at this point than what the Rancher's can produce. Texas would have lay out plan way in advance to meet this demand before succession were possible.

Second, Most of Texas's industry is owned by Corporations that actually operate outside of Texas. Because Texas relies pretty heavily on the taxes that these industries generate, they would have to squeeze them for every penny that they could initially to offset the debt accrued because they no longer depend on any sort of Federal Spending. This would make the Conglomerates very unhappy, and moving industry can be done in a relatively short amount of time to a place that would charge them less for running their business.

Texas would have to offer Tax incentives to make sure these industries don't leave, and so replacing the lost revenue would further burden the everyday joe on his taxes. I know Taxes and Texas.. heh... don't get along well. This could result in a large displacement of the city populations who have to pay MORE taxes, and get fewer benefits than what the US government can give. That is the only place that might get ugly.

Fortunately, if Texas manages to keep taxes on industry lower than what the US or Mexico allows, you could see a lot of foreign investment, and homegrown industries rise up. However, this can take years... even decades to pay off. I'm thinking Texas wants a quick fix and concessions made by the US government, and certainly isn't ready to take the leap into independence.

It should be noted that the former SSRs are still struggling to this day to catch up, Texas I think has a better position than these nations do, because it doesn't need to transfer from a planned economy to a market economy, but its still going to be a very hard upward slog.

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Most of the Ranchers in Texas depend on Federal Ag. Money to actually prevent them from raising more cattle/crops than they can actually grow, this does two things makes the Rancher's bank account fat and happy which makes them fat and happy

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It pleases me to see that Texas, like its former colonial motherland France, uses this civilized means of receiving financial tribute from the small and insignificant members of its Union.

Respect. :bow:

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

It pleases me to see that Texas, like its former colonial motherland France, uses this civilized means of receiving financial tribute from the small and insignificant members of its Union.

Respect. :bow:

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Like father like son

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Originally Posted by KarlXII

I do wish to clarify, I am not calling Texans stupid people, I am simply commenting that nothing will become of this "New Seccession" and that the Texan people are not going to make that decision because they know the consequences of it.

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Of course not, it's just political posturing. However statements like these are most welcome and are necessary to keeping the federal government 'honest'. The more people are made aware of the Federal government's abuses of power & horrendous waste the better.

I think that the whole idea that secession is on some people's lips is proof enough that it is always a possibility. I read the headline that 75% of Texans would vote to stay in the US. What about the other 25% - on the fence or for secession?!

Remember what the numbers FOR gay marriage were in the 1980's? Now look at them today. It was inconceivable then, even for MOST gay people. Once the word is let out seriously by some, they have the opportunity to push for it and make it more popular.

The concept has always been sound - we entered into a union, why can't we leave it? In a nation with no-fault divorce laws and divorce numbers, is it really a stretch that we wouldn't sympathise with such a reasonable idea?

I'm against secession because I am a patriot, but if the situation were to ever turn more seriously, I'd be left wondering which half was the real America; the one that believes that government shouldn't extend the dole or its domestic power and that marriage is an institution uniting the sexes/all humans should at least be given a right to life - or the side that simply flies a familiar flag?

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Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff

I'm against secession because I am a patriot, but if the situation were to ever turn more seriously, I'd be left wondering which half was the real America; the one that believes that government shouldn't extend the dole or its domestic power and that marriage is an institution uniting the sexes/all humans should at least be given a right to life - or the side that simply flies a familiar flag?

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Actually if you were a patriot then you would be all for secession provided it was on the grounds that all strong and reasonable objections to the violations of the Constitution and states' rights were being ignored or dismissed by the federal government. The senators who fought against Julius Caesar & Marc Antony in defense of the Republic were far more patriotic than those who supported the latter for no other reason than to justify their conquests in Gaul and declare their numerous populist acts as being done in the best interests of Rome and its people.

Personally I think that if you support your country for no reason other than to support your country, regardless of whether it violates its Constitution or laws, makes you an unapologetic nationalist.

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Originally Posted by Spino

Actually if you were a patriot then you would be all for secession provided it was on the grounds that all strong and reasonable objections to the violations of the Constitution and states' rights were being ignored or dismissed by the federal government. The senators who fought against Julius Caesar & Marc Antony in defense of the Republic were far more patriotic than those who supported the latter for no other reason than to justify their conquests in Gaul and declare their numerous populist acts as being done in the best interests of Rome and its people.

Personally I think that if you support your country for no reason other than to support your country, regardless of whether it violates its Constitution or laws, makes you an unapologetic nationalist.

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I'm not a nationalist, I'm a patriot. I beleive in the tenents that our governemnt adheres to. I'm not convinced that we can't get it back on track. When the day comes that the governemnt is off track for keeps, then I won't abandon it - it will have abandoned me.

It would be foolish to show intent to betray the US in any way, particularly in writing on the web. If you are to do it, just do it. Talking about secession as a citizen of New York will get you nowhere. If I wanted to seceed, I'd move to Texas and talk about it there.

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Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff

I'm not a nationalist, I'm a patriot. I beleive in the tenents that our governemnt adheres to. I'm not convinced that we can't get it back on track. When the day comes that the governemnt is off track for keeps, then I won't abandon it - it will have abandoned me.

It would be foolish to show intent to betray the US in any way, particularly in writing on the web. If you are to do it, just do it. Talking about secession as a citizen of New York will get you nowhere. If I wanted to seceed, I'd move to Texas and talk about it there.

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Well I'm quite a bit older than you and understandably more pessimistic (I'm a hardcore realist at heart). I believe the government has been in the process of derailing the entire country off the tracks for the better part of the last 40 years, with the last 20 bearing witness to the overall process taking on a dramatic increase in velocity and scope. I truly believe the chance that the current system can be reformed is decreasing dramatically with each passing year. Based upon what I have seen of the generation that has been in power for the better part of the last 20 years, not to mention the behavior of my fellow Gen X'ers, there is a glaring lack of education, awareness and appalling low level of zeal with which the average American guards his/her rights and freedoms (economic freedoms included). The system has gotten so bad because we allowed it to get that way through our ignorance and inaction.

The fact that both our elected leaders and the general population are largely apathetic to the glaring warning signs flashing by ought to tell you something. Sure, people scream and complain about things they dislike but it has done nothing to change the outcome. Voting becomes an meaningless gesture when one's choices are a mild variation on a theme. Voting becomes a pointless exercise when the elected willfully ignore the laws or the will of the masses. Violence becomes an answer when non-violence fails to produce results.

Plainly put, I do not see some miraculous turnaround that will scale back the size and scope of the Federal government, implement a sensible monetary policy, cease the wildly irresponsible spending and pay back the jaw droppingly enormous debt. Externally speaking we've been appallingly enthusiastic about joining and fueling international monetary entities like the IMF with our own treasury (or in this case, debt), a situation which only worsens the outlook. The crux of my argument is that the system cannot be reformed by the same people who created the problems or exacerbated the ones that existed in the first place. Basically nothing short of a miracle is going to stop this train's wheels from jumping off the tracks. The question is not whether it will happen but when and how badly things will get when the whole thing derails.

The discussion of the threat or intent to secede is a far cry from actually doing so. Why limit your options by taking the option completely off the table? What did Jefferson tell Madison in that famous letter?

http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/summer/letter.html

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...Societies exist under three forms, sufficiently distinguishable: (1) without government, as among our Indians; (2) under governments, wherein the will of everyone has a just influence, as is the case in England, in a slight degree, and in our states, in a great one; (3) under governments of force, as is the case in all other monarchies, and in most of the other republics.

To have an idea of the curse of existence under these last, they must be seen. It is a government of wolves over sheep. It is a problem, not clear in my mind, that the first condition is not the best. But I believe it to be inconsistent with any great degree of population. The second state has a great deal of good in it. The mass of mankind under that enjoys a precious degree of liberty and happiness. It has its evils, too, the principal of which is the turbulence to which it is subject. But weigh this against the oppressions of monarchy, and it becomes nothing. Malo periculosam libertatem quam quietam servitutem. Even this evil is productive of good. It prevents the degeneracy of government and nourishes a general attention to the public affairs.

I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government.

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On an amusing note, in response to all of Governor Perry's secession talk, the Texas House of Representatives has found a novel way to express their feelings:

House members virtually wiped out Gov. Rick Perry's office budget Friday in order to help veterans and the mentally ill.

With little debate, the House on a voice vote approved erasing 96 percent of the nearly $24 million that budget writers had recommended for Perry's office operation over the next two years.

Some Democrats cast the House's move as a rebuke of the governor's recent comments about Texas seceding from the Union.

"That's the headline: 'Two days after governor says we ought to secede, House zeroes out the governor's budget,' " said Appropriations Committee vice chairman Richard Raymond, D-Laredo.

However, most Republicans said they went along simply to speed debate of the state budget – a debate that could last into Saturday.

"At the end of the day, the governor will be fully funded," said House GOP caucus chairman Larry Taylor of Friendswood.

Perry spokeswoman Allison Castle said, "I think they're just playing silly games."

But idle talk of secession is deadly serious. I see.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

On an amusing note, in response to all of Governor Perry's secession talk, the Texas House of Representatives has found a novel way to express their feelings:

House members virtually wiped out Gov. Rick Perry's office budget Friday in order to help veterans and the mentally ill.

With little debate, the House on a voice vote approved erasing 96 percent of the nearly $24 million that budget writers had recommended for Perry's office operation over the next two years.

Some Democrats cast the House's move as a rebuke of the governor's recent comments about Texas seceding from the Union.

"That's the headline: 'Two days after governor says we ought to secede, House zeroes out the governor's budget,' " said Appropriations Committee vice chairman Richard Raymond, D-Laredo.

However, most Republicans said they went along simply to speed debate of the state budget – a debate that could last into Saturday.

"At the end of the day, the governor will be fully funded," said House GOP caucus chairman Larry Taylor of Friendswood.

Perry spokeswoman Allison Castle said, "I think they're just playing silly games."

But idle talk of secession is deadly serious. I see.

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That was a load of nothing.

Well, after the secessionist bluster, looks like Perry is going crying to mama after all. Suddenly the Union is useful, I guess.

Gov. Rick Perry today in a precautionary measure requested the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) provide 37,430 courses of antiviral medications from the Strategic National Stockpile to Texas to prevent the spread of swine flu. Currently, three cases of swine flu have been confirmed in Texas.

But, why, Governor? Surely a quasi-independent nation-state like Tejas has no need for the CDC and its evolution-grounded biological theories. You want to be your own nation? Go for it. Jerk.

Do'h si do'h Guv'nor! :laugh4:

It also appears that Governor Perry is also okay with Washington money so long as it's for his campaign. Seriously, where does Texas find these secessionist idiots?

Rick Perry has railed against Washington, but when it comes to campaign cash, the governor has raised far more than rival Kay Bailey Hutchison from the nation's capital.

Perry has collected $2.7 million from Washington since becoming governor – four times more than Hutchison's $670,000 from Washington during the same period, a Dallas Morning News analysis finds.

Dough si dough Guv'nor! :laugh4: