France: too weak in the game? (given the current province lineup)

There could be a way to fix it. Give the overseas French colonies to another faction like the game did with the 13 colonies and new Spain. This would make France focus on Europe more. (also, turn off the auto-give script as well)

I don`t think the "defense in the field" concept is functioning properly. If the French player leaves Paris to fight over their cities and resources a sneaky force may suddenly capture Paris and they`re outta here. I think there should be a command cap to brigadiers. Like a brigadier may not command an army larger than 10 units. In this way you`ll probabaly need a Grand Armee lead by a General to capture major cities and hopefuly there will be more skirmishes between smaller armies like it was intended and easier to defend the Capital.

I must say I do question the reasoning behind making both Spain and France one region nations and seperating the United Kingdom into three regions...

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Originally Posted by Superteale

I don`t think the "defense in the field" concept is functioning properly. If the French player leaves Paris to fight over their cities and resources a sneaky force may suddenly capture Paris and they`re outta here. I think there should be a command cap to brigadiers. Like a brigadier may not command an army larger than 10 units. In this way you`ll probabaly need a Grand Armee lead by a General to capture major cities and hopefuly there will be more skirmishes between smaller armies like it was intended and easier to defend the Capital.

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I'd wager more that France and Spain are handicapped considerably in this regard relative to their northern Island dwelling peer...

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Originally Posted by nafod

I must say I do question the reasoning behind making both Spain and France one region nations and seperating the United Kingdom into three regions...

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w00t for blue man group throwing uber damage lime-soaked heads! :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by nafod

I must say I do question the reasoning behind making both Spain and France one region nations and seperating the United Kingdom into three regions...

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Initial starting province numbers are....not in the favour of the British. The French have extensive American assets, if they didn't play like puddings Britain would have a very serious problem keeping the Thirteen Colonies alive long enough to take on the inexplicably powerful natives and claim the Colonies itself. The problem isn't the starting French province, it's how the AI uses it. Ever noticed that the AI NEVER demolishes a town building to replace it with something more effective or even makes rational choices? Every single game I play, France has four Seminaries. It's difficult to justify even one with the army they keep in Paris and the lack of Protestant preachers, the computer would be a whole heck of a lot richer if it actually built an economy.

The Spanish also have lots of provinces, they start off with enough for an excellent trading empire right from the start and again unlike the British, a proper city in the Americas. They have huge expansion potential from their provinces as well, they can go splat Morocco and all the Barbary States, Portugal is begging to get munched the second Britain plays up, who should also lose the whole Carribbean to the much more capable Spanish colonies, and Italy is an all you can eat buffet!

Britain would suck if the computer played the game properly with the current province setup.

In this case I don`t count in the overseas provinces as France is destroyed if they loose their european provinces. ANd it happens too frequent that a minor like Savoy gives France a beating...

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Originally Posted by Superteale

In this case I don`t count in the overseas provinces as France is destroyed if they loose their european provinces. ANd it happens too frequent that a minor like Savoy gives France a beating...

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They have two European provinces....one less than Britain, which isn't saying much because Ireland is hardly the land of money and joy. If the AI played properly those overseas colonies would be more instrumental, the money they provide in addition to a properly run France would make it rather more powerful in Europe, especially since it starts allied to Spain, which would be significantly more terrifying if Spain weren't a bunch of complete idiots as well.

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Originally Posted by TB666

And I for one don't like that. The more random it is the better.
The less you can predict who is gonna be the major player the better.
Having France as a powerhouse in every game would just make the game predictable.

This is Total war so it's not wrong in any way or form.
The smaller the nation, the more memorable it is.
I hardly remember any games from M1TW but I do remember the one where Aragon conquered half of Europe and I had to fight them of single-handed.
I remember that particular game because it was fun and unpredictable.
In RTW CA failed with this since you always saw the same factions getting powerful.
CA made this better in M2TW but still certain factions never stood a chance.
In ETW they seem to have gotten it right again.

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Honestly,

- as pointed out, Aragon was quite a powerful country throughout the Middle-Age. At some point in time, it was vastly more important and prestigious than both Castille and Portugal and was a very real threat to southern French holdings.
In MTW term, that faction was furthermore far from a minor. Aragon was one of the richest province in western Europe, and so was Valencia. Aragon was quite an easy faction to play, past the first few turns.
- MTW AI expansion was in all honestly, stupid as hell. Most games would end up with two AI factions + the player owning the whole map. Most of the time, said AI factions were Egypt, the Almohads, Britain, Aragon (unpredictable ?) or Byzantium. That was back then my main grief with the game: after 50 turns, only 4 or 5 factions would still be alive.
- if you think that Wurtemberg or Westphalia should outgun nations like GB or France, well, why do you even play a pseudo-historical game? You'd better replace France with Dark Elves, GB with Wood Elves, Wurtemberg with Undeads and Westphalia with Orcs, have the same starting condition and positions and enjoy your game.
EUIII is a what-if game, because, within realistic yet extraordinary conditions, a nation that is now forgotten can and may rise to power, while historical powerhouses sometimes struggle and collapse.
Having Westphalia - and for that matter all minor factions - more powerful than both France and GB is not a "what-if", it's the result of a screwed up AI, game balance and gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Meneldil

Honestly,

- if you think that Wurtemberg or Westphalia should outgun nations like GB or France, well, why do you even play a pseudo-historical game? You'd better replace France with Dark Elves, GB with Wood Elves, Wurtemberg with Undeads and Westphalia with Orcs, have the same starting condition and positions and enjoy your game.

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Well put, Meneldil, well put!.. :2thumbsup:

I am trying France for the first time now, and it is not an easy campaign. I jumped out trying to create a trade empire because she is so strapped for cash. I was willing to betray my one ally to avoid war with England…but it didn’t work. My king died first and Austria declared a war of secession. England blockaded me and all trade went bye, bye. This also put me at war with everyone on my eastern borders.

Savoy didn’t have a large army so the troops I scraped together I sent into Stuttgart and took it for enough cash not to disband what few troops I had.

Then Savoy started raiding immediately. I managed to put a halt to it and managed to scrape together enough troops to take them out.

Everything is a matter of balance or the lack there of. I have played factions I though were economic basket cases and faired better than I have so far with France. It is troops or something else. It is economy or government infrastructure. It was a big effort to have the money to build troops in Guyana to take out the Dutch before they did the same to me. And I haven’t even gotten to the Pirates yet.

In past games I always wondered why the French never retook their port from the Pirates, well, now I know it is a lack of funds. Everything is underdeveloped. Research is slow. You dare not build improvements that cause dissatisfaction.

Every cent is needed for arming once you are at war. I have managed to put my self on my feet but it has been no easy matter. My fleet is mostly captured ships from the Dutch and English. I have not been able to tackle the Pirates but have managed to draw them away and break the British blockade for the moment.

One of the worst handicaps the French seem to have is that they don’t get light dragoons, and no dragoons at all in Europe. It makes it hard to keep order.

They need dragoons! I am almost positive they had them…and baring that they had mounted gendarmes. Something is needed to keep order.

They loose to the minors because they cannot afford troops. They can’t afford to develop government buildings and can not build a robust economy for fear of rebellion. Revolution is out of the questions as it takes too long and is economically expensive to engineer and repair afterwards.

Some of the factions are just not up to snuff. Major Powers should be able to hold their own against the other AI factions, don’t you think?

I think a bit more balancing is in order.

With the aptitude of the AI though, I guess we are lucky that most of the Major Powers don’t implode…

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Originally Posted by Fisherking

I am trying France for the first time now, and it is not an easy campaign. I jumped out trying to create a trade empire because she is so strapped for cash. I was willing to betray my one ally to avoid war with England…but it didn’t work. My king died first and Austria declared a war of secession. England blockaded me and all trade went bye, bye. This also put me at war with everyone on my eastern borders.

Savoy didn’t have a large army so the troops I scraped together I sent into Stuttgart and took it for enough cash not to disband what few troops I had.

Then Savoy started raiding immediately. I managed to put a halt to it and managed to scrape together enough troops to take them out.

Everything is a matter of balance or the lack there of. I have played factions I though were economic basket cases and faired better than I have so far with France. It is troops or something else. It is economy or government infrastructure. It was a big effort to have the money to build troops in Guyana to take out the Dutch before they did the same to me. And I haven’t even gotten to the Pirates yet.

In past games I always wondered why the French never retook their port from the Pirates, well, now I know it is a lack of funds. Everything is underdeveloped. Research is slow. You dare not build improvements that cause dissatisfaction.

Every cent is needed for arming once you are at war. I have managed to put my self on my feet but it has been no easy matter. My fleet is mostly captured ships from the Dutch and English. I have not been able to tackle the Pirates but have managed to draw them away and break the British blockade for the moment.

One of the worst handicaps the French seem to have is that they don’t get light dragoons, and no dragoons at all in Europe. It makes it hard to keep order.

They need dragoons! I am almost positive they had them…and baring that they had mounted gendarmes. Something is needed to keep order.

They loose to the minors because they cannot afford troops. They can’t afford to develop government buildings and can not build a robust economy for fear of rebellion. Revolution is out of the questions as it takes too long and is economically expensive to engineer and repair afterwards.

Some of the factions are just not up to snuff. Major Powers should be able to hold their own against the other AI factions, don’t you think?

I think a bit more balancing is in order.

With the aptitude of the AI though, I guess we are lucky that most of the Major Powers don’t implode…

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hmm... you seem to have had much harder time with France than I did. what killed my French campaign was CTD when I clicked on my ports in the Carribean, not economic/military woes. The Dutch never attacked me in South America (by 1745), so I had just a militia unit guarding the port there.

The key to French cash flow success seems grabbing trade early (as with the other sea-nations in ETW); then again - grabbing trade spots is so easy (with France, Spain, England and even more so - the Dutch) that it feels like an exploit...

That, and, of course, keeping a unit of india-man (cheepest upkeep) in each trade port at least in France to keep England from destroying the ports.

I prefer to use Sakers to garrison ports myself because the enemy tends to sort of sink any ship I put in a port. Though maybe I merely misremember.

Each time I played with France, I get rid of my American holdings for Flanders and hard cash as soon as turn one so that I can focus on Europe and only on Europe. That is right, not even a trade spot. I scuttle all my ships except for one in each fleet; the admiral near Canada to bring the priest back to Europe, the admiral in the Channel in case I need to sneak invade the British Isles and the last ship in the Mediterranean Sea to send troops to Corsica to end Genoa.

The game feels a little fairer that way. :laugh4:

I will have to try these "new and improved" starting conditions on Hard and Very Hard, though... when the game interests me enough again.

A little more on topic, AI France is easier to end than Spain and Britain. Both of them have islands among their home territories so, as long as the AI refuses to use naval invasions, they will never be defeated by fellow AI nations. The only major nations which are (theorically) defeated as easily as France are Prussia and Maratha since they, too, have only two provinces in their home theatre, and even then I never saw them ended by the AI.

EDIT: Oh. Right. Dragoons. The complete lack of repression-happy units does not help.

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Originally Posted by Maladin

I prefer to use Sakers to garrison ports myself because the enemy tends to sort of sink any ship I put in a port. Though maybe I merely misremember.

EDIT: Oh. Right. Dragoons. The complete lack of repression-happy units does not help.

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If you ship is sitting in the port, then AI fleet attacking the port will merely blockade it (not destroy; not attack your ship). The only way the game allows your ship to be kicked out is if an enemy land unit enters the port. I suppose that could be a threat after the upcoming patch sine AI sea invasions will become possible: but for now, a boat in the port protects it as well as a garrison.

I have yet to see anything that would be more difficult on VH (than on medium) strategic map settings in the vanilla game...

Thanks for the information.

From the differences I saw between Easy and Normal, I believe Hard and Very Hard will merely make the nations ask for more in diplomatic exchanges. Louisiana was willing to give me 9000 gold for my American provinces (except French Guyana, which went to Spain for Flanders) in Easy, "only" 8000 in Normal. But I should play again to make sure...

Never mind. All difficulties reject 9000 and accept 8000.

After playing as France, I'm pretty sure it's an AI problem. Though they suffer a bit in trade income since they only start out with 1 port in Europe, the region of France has ENORMOUS property tax revenue potential. There are SO many towns in that one region, it's a gold mine.

Also, starting with an alliance with Spain, a English AI currently unable to invade you, having access to Spices via French Guyana, and being able to build 5 units / turn from Paris and another 2 from Strasbourg...grants you a great power base to build on. The only competition you have in Europe (Spain) is your ally. Arrayed around you are several pidly 1-region nations that you can take appart piecemeal. Hell, you can knock out the Dutch in a few turns and get 3-4 very wealthy towns and a major port!

With all that going for France from the get-go, the problem seems clearly more the French AI than their starting position.

The biggest problem is not lack of funds or infrastructure of the major factions its simply a lack of aggressive AI towards the other AI factions. i know some people report massive factions and what not, but realistically in my and most other peoples experiences the AI is not aggressive towards other AI factions, go to war with them and they will attack you relentlessly, but ive watched Russia and Ottomans in 2 campaigns at war for the whole thing and not take any provinces from each other.

Ive watched russia with its massive empire a war with georgia and not touch it. Its the same with france not touching the single province targets in central europe. I feel the AI is just too passive towards itself.

in my current poland campaign with saxony as my protectorate, i pumped them up with provinces i stole from austria and the other minors, they now have like 15 provinces in central europe with heaps of full stacks roaming around. and yet when i call them in on wars they dont even move their troops, unless their borders are threatened which only happened in a war with bravia cos i was moving my troops through saxonies provinces.

Just my 2 cents :)

make the ai actually fight amongst itself i remember the good old days of fighting off against 20+ full stacks of alomahad's hehe

Cheers Knoddy