Far right groups are in fact far left (UK left reconsiders the BNP)

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Originally Posted by Default the Magyar

I don't understand why you posted this in reply to my post.

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hit the reply with quote button. You and I were discussing which words to use... socialism, conservatism, etc... talked about fascism, differences between socialism and fascism... my reply was in the context of what, if anything, these words mean anymore, and if they aren't just labels used to play up what is actually much more minor differences.

Wasn't all aimed in your direction. Just expressing frustration with labels and lumping people together by ideologies which are murky at best.

Left: mommy
right: daddy

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Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

hit the reply with quote button. You and I were discussing which words to use... socialism, conservatism, etc... talked about fascism, differences between socialism and fascism... my reply was in the context of what, if anything, these words mean anymore, and if they aren't just labels used to play up what is actually much more minor differences.

Wasn't all aimed in your direction. Just expressing frustration with labels and lumping people together by ideologies which are murky at best.

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I will only call someone a socialist or fascist if they indentify as one, there is no great lack of them.

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Originally Posted by Default the Magyar

I will only call someone a socialist or fascist if they indentify as one, there is no great lack of them.

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I'm very interested to speak to these fascists... I really have to wonder what value system they hold dear. My understanding on the subject is vague, but I believe... nationalistic, one-race one-religion kind of people? i.e. xenophobes? But it's obviously not that simple. There has to be more to it than blaming every problem on minorities and the rest of the world. Surely they sense the danger which is inherent in a one-party state populated with people who all think alike. I could name a few rather populated nations who abuse human rights and national sovereignty constantly who cling to such world views.

Out of curiosity, who have you met that self-identifies as a fascist? Perhaps they could educate me on the merits of the value system they believe in.

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Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

I'm very interested to speak to these fascists... I really have to wonder what value system they hold dear. My understanding on the subject is vague, but I believe... nationalistic, one-race one-religion kind of people? i.e. xenophobes? But it's obviously not that simple. There has to be more to it than blaming every problem on minorities and the rest of the world. Surely they sense the danger which is inherent in a one-party state populated with people who all think alike. I could name a few rather populated nations who abuse human rights and national sovereignty constantly who cling to such world views.

Out of curiosity, who have you met that self-identifies as a fascist? Perhaps they could educate me on the merits of the value system they believe in.

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I work with two Hindu nationalists, both of whom accepted the term fascism does apply to their certain beliefs. They believe in a highly millitarised Hindu state, lead by some kind of super-Hindu/s, which would re-conquer Pakistan, drive all the Muslims out along with those dirty Sikhs (they also want all the Buddhists out because they apparently invented the caste system and slavery). They also hate whit people because we are really, really racist. So racist that in NZ we actually allow them to have a job, a house and a life free of harrasment, its that really secret whitey type of racism.

I don't think you would want to meet them as they are not likely to be your cup of tea.

Basicly a strong state with defined layers of citizens, working class, middle class, upper class, different from socialism because it doesn't aspire equality.
(@ATPG)

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Basicly a strong state with defined layers of citizens, working class, middle class, upper class, different from socialism because it doesn't aspire equality.
(@ATPG)

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What does the state do, with all its strength? What values do the people of this state believe in?

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Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

What does the state do, with all its strength? What values do the people of this state believe in?

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Very inward and militarised, with the power in hands of the military class. I guess the value would be a strong military society.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Very inward and militarised, with the power in hands of the military class. I guess the value would be a strong military society.

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And in times of peace this military does what with all its power? Is there a values system involved besides might makes right? Let's see... inward-looking xenophobic people with a singular, undefined ideology who believe their state is supreme, all wielding guns and celebrating their heroic military... why do I suddenly feel compelled to leave such a state and warn the world that they are coming?

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Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

What is...?

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You might well ask. I couldn't possibly comment. :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

And in times of peace this military does what with all its power? Is there a values system involved besides might makes right? Let's see... inward-looking xenophobic people with a singular, undefined ideology who believe their state is supreme, all wielding guns and celebrating their heroic military... why do I suddenly feel compelled to leave such a state and warn the world that they are coming?

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No it's not an undefined ideoligy, socialism is class struggle, fascism is class maintainance, but you can't put the clock back 100 years.

You can really make it like this,

socialism: rise of the workers class
liberalism: rise of the middle class
fascism: rise of the upper class

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Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

I'm very interested to speak to these fascists... I really have to wonder what value system they hold dear. My understanding on the subject is vague, but I believe... nationalistic, one-race one-religion kind of people? i.e. xenophobes? But it's obviously not that simple. There has to be more to it than blaming every problem on minorities and the rest of the world. Surely they sense the danger which is inherent in a one-party state populated with people who all think alike. I could name a few rather populated nations who abuse human rights and national sovereignty constantly who cling to such world views.

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There is a lot more to it than that. Not all fascists believed in the superiority of their own country/race. For some, they believed that if all nationalities ruled themselves then they could create a utopia across the world. While nowadays we link nationalist with Nazism, Imperial Japan etc, we should remember that in the early days of the 18th/19th Centuries, nationalists from different countries worked across borders to help each other, trying to free various nations from the monarchies, most notably the Hapsburgs.

There were still elements of this utopianism even by WW2. Oswald Mosley, the British fascist, supported a complete independent Irish state - and that pretty much condemned facism to death in Scotland.

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Originally Posted by ATPG

Every nation is at least to some degree socialist. You pay taxes, you get a national army and government services.

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That's not a very useful definition of socialism you're using. Socialism is usually understood to mean:
1) the state is the sole employer and runs all production and services
2) democracy, since the people run the state all property is "collective"
3) all are equal so nobody's entitled to more wealth than others

A lot of socialists argue that no socialist state has ever existed because the USSR, China etc. were not democratic and because the upper party members were for practical purposes a privileged caste. I'd agree, but would add that the fact that it's been tried so often should show the futility of even attempting.
Most socialist parties have abandoned 3) because in developed societies the middle class is huge and they'd lose income in the case of total redestribution.

Fascism is an ideology that dismisses all enlightenment ideals and thus opposes both socialism and capitalism, the "third way" as Mussolini put it. The government manages the economy without taking away formal ownership from industrials using coersion. It runs all sorts of social programs to build up popular support without recognising that all people are equal. Most self-described socialists deny socialism and fascism have anything in common, but Mussolini and many of his contemporary supporters were former socialists themselves.

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Originally Posted by Kralizec

the "third way" as Mussolini put it.

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Hey, I think I heard that somewhere else...

EDIT: And yeah, Mussolini was socialist at first, he was the editor of a quite far left-wing paper called "Avanti" IIRC. He believed socialism to be purely materialistic, fascism expanded upon the material equality and offered something deeper in his eyes.

Gentlemen,

Whereas I find myself astonished that I am going to say this, but rules are rules: please avoid insulting generalisations of people with differing opinions - yes, fascists count as people too, and we have some members who adhere to that philosophy.

You may disagree with their views, but not insult them.

Thank you kindly

BG

I'm not a fascist BTW, I just don't think they are as evil as we want them to be.

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

I'm not a fascist BTW, I just don't think they are as evil as we want them to be.

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I agree somewhat- (Italian) fascism isn't nearly as crazy or as "evil" as national socialism. But that's not a particulary high standard to begin with.

Brenus, your logic is like saying that somebody isn't right wing because they believe in big government (for example). You can still be a leftist without being "loving", and saying anything else is just :dizzy2:. All the governments Krazilec mentioned were certainly left-wing.

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

I'm not a fascist BTW, I just don't think they are as evil as we want them to be.

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I don't think their evil I just think that they are more deserving of "meany weany names" thann most other groups, since they profess a hate of me I will profess a belief that they are idiots who feed off the fear of those whom see something wrong with this country at the moment.

"All the governments Krazilec mentioned were certainly left-wing", Indeed they were. However, as much they were murderers (especially the Red Khmer who by the way were destroyed by the very communist Vietnam) they were not institutionally racist.
And to be internationalist doesn't mean your are loving every body.
A real lefty will go to others separations than the nationality, religion or race. He/she will use the class dividers, roughly oppressed and oppressors.
Or she/he will not accept the so-called clash of civilisations as operator, but will go for economico-political tools in order to understand/analyse a given situation.:beam:

A French worker has more things/interests in common with a German worker than with his French manager/employer.

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Originally Posted by Brenus

"All the governments Krazilec mentioned were certainly left-wing", Indeed they were. However, as much they were murderers (especially the Red Khmer who by the way were destroyed by the very communist Vietnam) they were not institutionally racist.
And to be internationalist doesn't mean your are loving every body.
A real lefty will go to others separations than the nationality, religion or race. He/she will use the class dividers, roughly oppressed and oppressors.
Or she/he will not accept the so-called clash of civilisations as operator, but will go for economico-political tools in order to understand/analyse a given situation.:beam:

A French worker has more things/interests in common with a German worker than with his French manager/employer.

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Ah, so a "lefty" is similar to a fascist in the way they will discriminate against a certain group of people? Instead of seeing reality as the constant conflict of races and states, a "lefty" will see it as class versus class. With the ultimate outcome of the workers detroying the rest?

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Uhm.... Why should that change? What they've said, is that BNP is to the left of a right-wing party.... Still a long way from a lefty ~;)

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because the british left always describe the BNP as the far-right which acts to tarnish the british right in popular public perception.

seems a little unfair when as a political party they stand on a platform with far greater similarities to the british left than the british right.

The BNP are a little all over the place, thier social policys are probably more right wing type thinking, anti abortion, anti immigration, anti EU and they have a lot of left wing stuff too...

But of course now some left wing person has declared the BNP as left wing (which they probably would be purely on economic policy) i have become a right winger... planned worked.... ~;)

"Ah, so a "lefty" is similar to a fascist in the way they will discriminate against a certain group of people? Instead of seeing reality as the constant conflict of races and states, a "lefty" will see it as class versus class. With the ultimate outcome of the workers destroying the rest? "

:laugh4: No. It is a difference in analyzing the problem, not an action plan...

OK. So you do think that the reality is an Indian peasant have more things in common with a Maharajah than with a Pakistanis peasant?
The Talibans are victims of poverty, ignorance, fear and of religious fanatics. You are not sure to win if you don't improve the situation of the daily life of the Afghan peasants, but if you don't you are sure to loose if you play the nationalist cards.

That a French workers have the same interest than his factory's owner? If yes, how do you explain the exodus of factories and production units in foreign countries?
For a fascist, the solution is to ban all factories to go in foreign lands... For a lefty the solution is to increase the salaries in the foreign countries so the competition is nt based on low wages/exploitation of the weak but on savoir-faire...

So, no, even if it is a very tempting solution, the ultimate goal is not to destroy the rest (if you follow Marx, you will just replace the leaders, not the system) but to change the system, to re balance the powers, not in down grading the riches but in raising the poorest.

I know it is not what the righties scare-mongering are actually propagating. :beam:

Like socialism, fascism is essentially a working class ideology in origin, and therefore has quite a few points in common with socialism, or the more extreme forms of it anyway. The Nazi Party was originally the German Workers' Party, Benito started off as a socialist and though the latter broke away from socialism and Hitler eliminated most of the left-wing element in his party in the Night of the Long Knives, it would be wrong to deny that socialism had no influence on fascism. Nazism developed the idea of the Volksgemeinschaft, or people's community; like communism, fascism believed in a radical break with the past and creation of a new order; various social reform was enacted (increase of paid holiday, anti-child labour legislation, compensation for asbestos-related illnesses), which of course only applied to Aryans, but was still quite left-wing when compared to other Western countries. National Socialism was pretty much that, quasi-socialist ultra-nationalism.

The BNP just continues in this tradition, which of course the economic crisis has done much to foster, as declaiming the filthy rich, especially when they are Jews (they must have been over the moon when the Madoff case came out) and other "dirty" foreign types, is a sure vote-winner when it comes to poor whites who need to blame someone for why they don't have a job, other than their own lack of intelligence and willingness to work, naturally.

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Originally Posted by King Henry V

Like socialism, fascism is essentially a working class ideology in origin

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Why do people insist on that, fascism may be a heavily top-down but there is no desire for any class-struggle, you can't see fascism without social darwinism.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Why do people insist on that, fascism may be a heavily top-down but there is no desire for any class-struggle, you can't see fascism without social darwinism.

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Because the first supporters of fascism were primarily working class, or at least lower-middle class. Xenophobia, promise of better living conditions, destruction of liberal democracy (usually dominated by the middle classes) were all tenets very popular with the poorly educated, empoverished and seemingly disenfranchised lower classes who for various reasons didn't support the other alternative socialism/communism.

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Originally Posted by Brenus

"All the governments Krazilec mentioned were certainly left-wing", Indeed they were. However, as much they were murderers (especially the Red Khmer who by the way were destroyed by the very communist Vietnam) they were not institutionally racist.

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:inquisitive:

No racism? Do you want to take a bet on that?

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No racism? Do you want to take a bet on that?

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Mars is correct , the Khmer Rouge as well as having a basic hatred for just about everyone also had an additional hatred for different ethnic groups in Cambodia .

"No racism? Do you want to take a bet on that? " Yeap. I even ignore the Red Khmers had a constitution where racism is institutionalized. So I will be very happy that they were even more evil than I thought...:2thumbsup: