How history will view us...

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Originally Posted by PBI

These are rich men's problems

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Yes. Count your blessings.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Screw that, it's the nanny-mentality yes we can-all together! that prevents us from being individuals, we are hammered to equal size, everything must be equal, everything must be representative of society.

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What nanny-mentality?
Every society has a collective sense of itse;f and what it is, the modern attempt to stamp INDIVIDUALISM onto it in big red capital letters has really screwed Westerners up. It is a society of individulaism, that cannot work.

I am using individualism in the modern sense, I do not want to be controlled by society.

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Originally Posted by PBI

These are rich men's problems, like complaining that your garage is too small for all your sports cars or your supermodel girlfriends won't stop pestering you for sex. Deprived of actual problems like war, famine or plague to worry about our society blows real but minor problems out of all proportion, like Islamic terrorism or climate change.

Self obsession and egotism are nothing new, nor is the tendency for every generation to view itself as the pinnacle of human development and the one following it as useless layabouts who will bring about the end of civilization. It's just that it's only recently that people have had the luxury of time to notice these things without being preoccupied by their family dieing of cholera or being slaughtered by marauding armies. Personally I prefer to live in a society where everyone has enough to eat than one where we can all feel smug about our moral fiber as we starve to death.

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I'm not rich, I'm normal, and I expect that such issues span all facets of Western society.

People are people and always will be people. People have been made to believe that they are incredibly more enlightened and civilized than the barbarians of the past or of other cultures plenty of times before (think Rome, Greece, Egypt, etc). The only difference is that living has become so much easier that people now adays are worth a heck of a lot less than the people before them. If they put themselves in context it would be one thing, but people now adays think that they are enlightened, intelligent, moral entities who are so far above the primitives who came before them. They do not realize just how little they know of the lives of those who came before them and their own lives. How would they perform if they were sent back to the 1800s? To the 1700s? To the 1600s? None of them would survive. People now adays are less industrious, for the most part less educated then people in some past time periods, and certainly have to think less than most people from most past time periods. They have many more conveniences and have much less responsibility. Sure, there are unique challenges to modern people, including a much faster paced life, but overall life is much easier and much fairer than it used to be. Not because of us, but because of those people who came before us who we are so quick to condemn. They are the ones who built the pedestal we now stand on, and we have risen so high and grown so comfortable that we cease to build it, and indeed, cease to maintain it. Much as other great civilizations that have risen and fallen, we are getting to the point where we have grown completely content with life and ceased to maintain the foundation that everything we enjoy is built on, and when we do try to grow, we try to grow in a different direction and build upwards without a foundation. We will collapse, but we are so much higher (as far as the comfort of our living style and our distance from real life) than those who came before us (no thanks to us) that we will fall all the harder, and probably not be able to pick ourselves up. If we have any strength at all, we will find the ground, reality, on which we fall to be so foriegn and so dreadfull that we will not know what to do. It is not that we are anymore stupid today than we were 5000 years ago, simply that we have a lot more to lose for our stupidity and will have a much smaller chance of recovering.

I'll leave you to decifer my cryptic post. :P

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Originally Posted by Thomas Jefferson

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

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Originally Posted by Just Vuk Again

People are people and always will be people. People have been made to believe that they are incredibly more enlightened and civilized than the barbarians of the past or of other cultures plenty of times before (think Rome, Greece, Egypt, etc). The only difference is that living has become so much easier that people now adays are worth a heck of a lot less than the people before them. If they put themselves in context it would be one thing, but people now adays think that they are enlightened, intelligent, moral entities who are so far above the primitives who came before them. They do not realize just how little they know of the lives of those who came before them and their own lives. How would they perform if they were sent back to the 1800s? To the 1700s? To the 1600s? None of them would survive. People now adays are less industrious, for the most part less educated then people in some past time periods, and certainly have to think less than most people from most past time periods. They have many more conveniences and have much less responsibility. Sure, there are unique challenges to modern people, including a much faster paced life, but overall life is much easier and much fairer than it used to be. Not because of us, but because of those people who came before us who we are so quick to condemn. They are the ones who built the pedestal we now stand on, and we have risen so high and grown so comfortable that we cease to build it, and indeed, cease to maintain it. Much as other great civilizations that have risen and fallen, we are getting to the point where we have grown completely content with life and ceased to maintain the foundation that everything we enjoy is built on, and when we do try to grow, we try to grow in a different direction and build upwards without a foundation. We will collapse, but we are so much higher (as far as the comfort of our living style and our distance from real life) than those who came before us (no thanks to us) that we will fall all the harder, and probably not be able to pick ourselves up. If we have any strength at all, we will find the ground, reality, on which we fall to be so foriegn and so dreadfull that we will not know what to do. It is not that we are anymore stupid today than we were 5000 years ago, simply that we have a lot more to lose for our stupidity and will have a much smaller chance of recovering.

I'll leave you to decifer my cryptic post. :P

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More educated? You joking?

They sure were barbaric, not only were they enjoying God's will to slaughter everyone who disagreed with them, they had no flushing toilets.

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Originally Posted by Default the Magyar

What nanny-mentality?
Every society has a collective sense of itse;f and what it is, the modern attempt to stamp INDIVIDUALISM onto it in big red capital letters has really screwed Westerners up. It is a society of individulaism, that cannot work.

I am using individualism in the modern sense, I do not want to be controlled by society.

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Doesn't work? Look around you, it works just fine the west as it is now is the best thing thjat ever happened to the world, it's progress. If you ask me, things go wrong for some people because they get bored.

Of course I count my blessing, we get to take advantage of all the modern technology, medical advances, working conditions etc....

I'm not complaining about that, I'm just saying that this western culture is turning everyone into :daisy:'s who are always told to boast about how great they are and to look out for no.1

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Originally Posted by Default the Magyar

More educated? You joking?

They sure were barbaric, not only were they enjoying God's will to slaughter everyone who disagreed with them, they had no flushing toilets.

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More educated does not mean that their science was more advanced, simply that they had a better understanding and were more involved with what they had than most people are today. And yeah, they were often more barbaric than we are today, but that was because they were in a much tougher world where they often had to be. We are in the world that they built, and their work allows us to enjoy relative peace. Everything we have is thanks to them, not to ourselves (no, I am not suggesting ancestor worship, simply saying we shouldn't get a big head). And you have to remember that different regions of the world and different people went through different stages of peacefulness and barbarism. Look at modern people. Not too long ago we have WWII, one of the most barbaric things in history. Oh how superior the modern man proved to be. For all you know we may soon be in WWIII, because we think we know everything and do not build on the knowledge of those who came before us and made the mistakes.
As far is individualism, you are wrong. If you live in a society where people can barely eat, it will be even worse. You will have starving, desperate people fighting to survive, and a group of wealthy who controls the majority of the very limited food. Some would live like kings, and others like dogs. Better some live like gods and others like kings.

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

I'm not complaining about that, I'm just saying that this western culture is turning everyone into :daisy:'s who are always told to boast about how great they are and to look out for no.1

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Turning into what, have a chat with the new boyfriend of my grandma (the little minx) and he will tell you about the old times when everybody was nice and nobody had sex before marriage. But he won't tell you that because these times just never existed, and he had a lot of fun when he was young. All that people are complaining about is nothing new, egoism and all that , it just happens in a much better place.

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Originally Posted by Default the Magyar

I'm not rich, I'm normal, and I expect that such issues span all facets of Western society.

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Compared to the average citizen of just about every other society in history you are immeasurably wealthy. In fact, compared to the richest men of just about every society in history you are immeasurably wealthy. As a normal citizen of this country you have access to luxury, health and security the Emperors of Rome could only dream of.

That is all I meant in my reference to rich men's problems, that our society is essentially free from the kind of catastrophes that were a part of everyday life in earlier civilizations and is thus at liberty to consider more minor issues.

Incidentally, I find it a new and interesting experience to be in complete agreement with Fragony. Is this what it feels like to be right wing?

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Turning into what, have a chat with the new boyfriend of my grandma (the little minx) and he will tell you about the old times when everybody was nice and nobody had sex before marriage. But he won't tell you that because these times just never existed, and he had a lot of fun when he was young. All that people are complaining about is nothing new, egoism and all that , it just happens in a much better place.

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Yeah I know, I used to respect older people until I looked back at their own generations, and they were every bit if not more decadent than us nowadays.

You have to go back a few centuries before I am happy.

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Originally Posted by PBI

Incidentally, I find it a new and interesting experience to be in complete agreement with Fragony. Is this what it feels like to be right wing?

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lol, by American standards, Frag is not rightwing. :P You will know when you are rightwing when turn male (if you are not already), age to 40 years old (if you are not already), get fat, go bald, start carrying a sawed-off shotgun with you and searching under the bed for commies while planning to rid the world of the evil black president and bring back the greatness of Nazism. Nah, not really, but that is what the media would have you believe. :P

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Originally Posted by PBI

Incidentally, I find it a new and interesting experience to be in complete agreement with Fragony. Is this what it feels like to be right wing?

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You can't really be sure until you kick a :daisy:

edit: Same quote wat teh vuk, synchrone-postage

On paper, this should be the greatest time yet, but sadly, it just doesn't appear to be so. We have so much intolerence, so much cruelty, so much beurocracy, that I doubt that future generations will look back to us with massive interest. No, I believe they will look back with slight distaste combined with huge boredom. Think the 12th century, but with Guns.

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Originally Posted by Che Roriniho

On paper, this should be the greatest time yet, but sadly, it just doesn't appear to be so. We have so much intolerence, so much cruelty, so much beurocracy, that I doubt that future generations will look back to us with massive interest. No, I believe they will look back with slight distaste combined with huge boredom. Think the 12th century, but with Guns.

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Tell me ONE time in history when there was LESS cruelty and intolerence? Give me one century. Give me even a span of 20 years when there was less cruelty and intolerence across the world!

i think they will laugh

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Originally Posted by Che Roriniho

On paper, this should be the greatest time yet, but sadly, it just doesn't appear to be so. We have so much intolerence, so much cruelty, so much beurocracy, that I doubt that future generations will look back to us with massive interest. No, I believe they will look back with slight distaste combined with huge boredom. Think the 12th century, but with Guns.

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Serious lack of perspective here- maybe in a couple of centuries peopel will be so open minded and tolerant that they can't see the difference between early 21th century and medieval mentality, but you have no such excuse.

So much pessimism in this thread. We've improved by leaps and bounds. The 20th century will be remembered as a century where humanity overcame our warring instincts, moved towards equality for all races and genders, and created enormous amounts of music and film.

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

...and created enormous amounts of music and film.

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Some of which is even worth watching/listening.

By now, I mean the 21st century so far. The 20th wasn't so bad.

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Originally Posted by Che Roriniho

The 20th wasn't so bad.

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Isn't sarcasm in green?

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Originally Posted by Megas Methuselah

Isn't sarcasm in green?

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Dunno, we came reasonably close to beating back the disease of religion, found out how most of th universe works, to an extent, and made the world tiny. Oh, and we got into space. Biggie, that one.

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Originally Posted by Megas Methuselah

Isn't sarcasm in green?

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Dunno, we came reasonably close to beating back the disease of religion, found out how most of th universe works, to an extent, and made the world tiny. Oh, and we got into space. Biggie, that one.

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Originally Posted by Megas Methuselah

Isn't sarcasm in green?

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yes, Che. sarcasm is in green

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Originally Posted by Che Roriniho

we came reasonably close to beating back the disease of religion

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Trolling, thy name is Che.

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

Trolling, thy name is Che.

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Originally Posted by Dictionary.Com

Disease
–noun
1. a disordered or incorrectly functioning organ, part, structure, or system of the body resulting from the effect of genetic or developmental errors, infection, poisons, nutritional deficiency or imbalance, toxicity, or unfavorable environmental factors; illness; sickness; ailment.
2. any abnormal condition in a plant that interferes with its vital physiological processes, caused by pathogenic microorganisms, parasites, unfavorable environmental, genetic, or nutritional factors, etc.
3. any harmful, depraved, or morbid condition, as of the mind or society: His fascination with executions is a disease.
4. decomposition of a material under special circumstances: tin disease.

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Remind me again, how many people have died in the past 100 years from the belief in a completely irrational being? Millions. That is a disease in society, pure and simple. The sooner we cure ourselves of this, the better for everyone.
This past century we've done well, but believe me, in 2,000 years people will look back in amazement that when we launched ourselves off this tiny insignificant planet of ours, some of us were genuinely surprised and dissapointed that we didn''t crash into a bearded bloke on the way up.

but also ask how many people religion has SAVED.
i know of people who were on the brink of suicide who turned to religion and decided to live on.
one of those people is my uncle, who now lives a good life with a wife and two kids.

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Originally Posted by Che Roriniho

Remind me again, how many people have died in the past 100 years from the belief in a completely irrational being? Millions. That is a disease in society, pure and simple. The sooner we cure ourselves of this, the better for everyone.

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Obvious troll again. You really don't see what I'm getting at, do you?

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

Obvious troll again. You really don't see what I'm getting at, do you?

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take it easy, EMFM. he's new. :lost:

I think the subject of religion is a little off topic, and no matter what people like to believe in things that are bigger than themselves, Religion is respectable outlet, that suffers from the problems as any ideology, extremism.