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Well long term bans in the US haven't stopped prostitutes on the street - and we could still keep that illegal while letting regulated indoor/brothel prostitution continue (see Nevada).
I'd rather see more laws against trafficking in prostitutes than against buying. Not that I have any love for people who pay for sex, but making it illegal to buy just forces the whole thing deeper into the shadows, as I mentioned before.
CR
....Which haven't happened here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
Quote:
Gawd, start reading Dagbladet, there have been a gahzillion articles on this since January 1st*. Or take a walk around Karl Johan.
So all in all, the law has been a success.
There is no "principle" here. There is no "legal right to sell". The law is made the way it is simply because of who we want to punish. We have no need to punish prostitutes, where's the sense in that? The only reason to punish a prostitute, is if we're overly religious, which we are not. But punishing the buyer is with a different reasoning, it is to cut the market for traffickers and pimps. If noone wants to buy, noone can make a profit from selling women.
*for non-norwegians, this is when we banned prostitution.
I have not, nor will I ever buy sex, so I don't care either way if it is legal or not, and therefore I don't follow the news about it either. So I asked because I was curious about it, and did not want to sift through endless articles on the subject. Like I said in my post, during the writing of it I ended up at the same position you have. So there is no need to get defensive..
But, I seem to have been unclear of the principle I was talking about. I was not referring to the current legislation, but to the very act of buying and selling a good that is offered.
You said that selling should be legal, buying not. Suppose that a woman who is not poor, not a drug addict, nor under any form of coercion decides that she wants to sell her body, why is she not allowed to profit of her body because buying it is illegal? (No pimps, no trafficking, all profits go to the woman herself)
This was the principle I was working from. Like you said, and I repeated, in reality this is not the case, so going after the first link in the blame chain might be a strategy good as any...
To finish: I agree with you in this, I just found your statement to simplistic.
No no no. The correct version is; "buying should be punished, selling should not" ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dîn-Heru
and sorry if I seemed defensive or cranky, wasn't my intention....
And as I said earlier, I don't see the point in outlawing "luxury prostitution". But I really don't see a need for a ton of tricky laws to make a distinction between the various forms of prostitution. If someone gets the 9000 NOK fine for buying a luxury prostitute..... Well, honestly, I don't really care.
EDIT: But honestly, I see no reason why we shouldn't charge people who buy trafficking victims with rape. Rape is forced sex, a trafficking victim is forced to sell herself, so I can't see how that isn't rape. And don't try telling me that the buyer doesn't know it.
Hehe, no problem mate. Well, we agree in "principle" then. :wink:
EDIT: But honestly, I see no reason why we shouldn't charge people who buy trafficking victims with rape. Rape is forced sex, a trafficking victim is forced to sell herself, so I can't see how that isn't rape. And don't try telling me that the buyer doesn't know it.
My friend ending up sleeping with a prostitute when we went to Malaga, she was quite possibly an illegal (my guess would be yes) and my friend was a fairly easy target, pissed out of his mind. She was an aggressive salesman shall we say...
I think it would be harsh to punish him for this... (he lost 500 Euros possibly stolen off him as it was...)
I think of prostitution almost like i think of boxing, its not paticularly pleasent and it seems wrong to make money of that activity. Though i would say prostitution is the worse one...
I wouldn't have any moral qualms (sp?) about going with a prostitute... I probably wouldn't use a street one for a number of reasons but one in a brothel type building.
Im too skanky though... either the price seems to high.. i can do that for free! ~;) or the product isn't quite the one i want ~;)
There's no need to punish the prostitute in my view, they are just victims of the whole system, through the poverty, drugs, pimping, trafficking etc. Legalising prostitution would only help with the last two of those problems. The fact is many women would still find themselves in the business not through pimps, but by being forced into it by their circumstances, most likely to fuell drug addictions. All you would be giving them is the freedom to sell themselves into slavery.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
:2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
Making selling legal and buying not is completely pointless, if enforced 100% there is absolutely no point in selling despite it being legal so the sellers would often try to help their customers.
Also it's legal here and there is still loads of human trafficking going on.
I don't really know a solution, maybe shoot the traffickers when they are caught.
I favour legalising it, mainly after a spate of murders of prostitutes a couple of years ago, that went unnoticed for ages except by their friends. At the very least, prostitutes should not be criminalised, so they can have access to the protection of the law. Whether or not their business should be taxed I care less about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
AFAIK, historically the most significant opposition to legalising prostitution has come from spouses, who feared that the free use of prostitutes would threaten their rights and status as the woman of the family.
Taking pimps out of the game is harder than it sounds. In Nevada where they have legal brothels, they still have pimps and madams. They are the businessmen and women who take care of the finances and make it a legal operation (pays taxes, etc.) what i am saying is that they are not your usual pimps, they don't beat up the girls if they come home with not enough money. The vast majority of street pimps however, need to be shut down.
Human trafficking needs to be shut down. i don't care what it takes, personally i think you can make it a crime of murder, because you take those young girls and ruin their lives and basically make them a hollow shell of themselves with drugs.
I saw in a British documentary following representatives from the Hampshire WI as they visited different legalized brothels around the world. In NZ, brothels are legal; and they visited two women, 30+ at least, who had prostitution as a part time job (I believe). They got all the money they earned for themselves. There was a certain term for these kind of "brothels"; where the prostitutes themselves were in control of the buisness. They were not a luxury escort.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Pointless debate, even if its legalised it won't stop illegal prostitution. It is the oldest profession for a reason, and that is because there are always some really sick :daisy: out there that will pay to have their deeply nasty, and usually illegal, habits catered too...And while people need money there will be people that will provide the service.
So unless you legalise every thing sexual, and that's ALOT of deeply nasty stuff, you may as well forget about it.
Moderators, please excuse the poor replacements for what can be considered mildly offensive language, however the poster in this instance considers the topic demands such expletives. :sweatdrop: An' we both know how much it hurts us when you take that daisy and :daisy::daisy::daisy::daisy::daisy::daisy: :daisy:
an i shtill w8ting! U owe me 8 dorrar fitty or nex time i no love u looooong time!
Hookers, prosititues, rent boys, whatever you want to call people in the sex industry, they are people too, legalisation is just another way of ******* people that are already in such a bad way they have 95% of the time no other choice.
Legalise it. Regulate it. Tax it.
Why do I work? For the rent and bills. I am a "slave" to my job. A prostitute's motives are quite similar.
Some might not want to do the job. Some might not like the clients they have. I know I don't always like the job and some of the clients are revolting.
Trying to police it out of existence quite clearly hasn't worked, and even if there were no more important tasks for the police to do (like arresting demonstrators for example) the ways of "not actually buying" would just multiply. As it is there are such wheezes of £50 or more for a glass of close to water, after purchase the girls will be much more friendly for a length of time.
With the large amount of money taxing these workers would bring in - and the reduction of police time spent on it - all efforts can be spent on those who are coerced into it and and other illegal activities.
~:smoking:
Bahhh...Mspost but wives will do that to a body
Man that is such a ****** up way at looking at it its practically obscene, and you obviously don't know why, but damn...Excuse me, my wifes's home, and right now I don't have time to explain.Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
You really think everyone who sells themselves for sex does it for fun? If you do you are really screwed up man
Aside from your personal attacks, where did you see I stated that my reasoning for prostitution is that they enjoy it? :inquisitive:Quote:
Originally Posted by Prodigal
~:smoking:
My reasoning is that because it aint going nowhere, why not just legalize it and tax it. That way the money does not go to organized crime. Has worked pretty well in Netherlands for example.
I thought a lot of the red light districts in the Netherlands were controlled by organized crime. :inquisitive:
CR
What does making it illegal do? Does it prevent the sex trade from happening? No... you cannot stop two people from meeting anonymously and prevent cash from changing hands. Especially while things like one-night stands and voluntary gift giving are legal. Come to think of it, if I am dating someone and I purchase them a gift or cover their bills for whatever reason, one could almost make the argument that I am paying for sex; it depends on whether or not that is the intended arrangement or not. That basically means you have to know my motivation for giving someone a gift and also having sex with them; is it selfish or is it a relationship? Since you can't know what's going on in my mind, a very informal prostitution business could involve girls simply stating that they are in a relationship with a man, break it off really quickly as they are allowed to do, and accept whatever gifts come with the relationship. Obviously this is different from real relationships, but there doesn't appear to be a legal difference unless you can prove the intent is prostitution and not a one-night stand.
Even with enforcement, which wastes police manpower and taxpayer dollars, it doesn't prevent the sex trade from happening. I also have to look to the issue of pornography, which is legal. So, it is legal for a business to pay a person to have sex on camera, but it is not legal if the cameras aren't rolling? Pornography is nothing more than on-camera prostitution.
Seriously, if you've ever voluntarily watched pornographic video, you're consenting to prostitution. So why don't we stop being hypocritical about it? Since "ADULT FILM STARS" can legally work, pay their taxes, and so forth... you're holding a double standard if you make prostitution illegal. Either you BAN all one-night stands, gift-giving during a relationship of less than one month (or other ridiculous, arbitrary number) and all pornography whatsoever, or you're admitting that you really don't give one flying fig about "morality" in the sense of sexual morality and you're a hypocrite on the prostitution issue.
Do I want to see less of it? Yes. I also want to see people smoking and drinking less, but guess what it is none of my (expletive) business what YOU DO with YOUR BODY, unless you're talking about a public health issue. Widespread drug abuse is a public health issue because of factors like sharing needles or driving under the influence or unwanted contact highs, second-hand smoke, etc... then it becomes a public issue and that's why certain substances are banned or heavily regulated. But if you're smoking or drinking in your home or designated smoking or drinking area, it's none of my business. If you're doing marijuana in your own home and you can refrain from driving down the street high, I frankly don't give a hoot. If a woman or man wants to videotape herself/himself naked for money, not only do I not want to ban that activity, I want to make sure she's not getting exploited and she has legal protections. If a woman or man wants to do the same behavior off-camera, what's the freaking difference? It's still none of my business. I'd rather see less of that in my community and I'd rather see people in happy relationships, but you know the world isn't perfect and it is not my place to tell other people how to behave when it doesn't affect anyone but themselves.
I hate the double standard on stuff like this. If you purchase porn, you're basically endorsing prostitution, which is sex-for-pay. If you smoke, then you agree what you do to your body is your own business and I shouldn't be able to ban you from doing it in private. If you drink, same deal.
I'd like there to be one, and only one legal line when it comes to what you're allowed to do to your body. People pierce and tattoo themselves, because it is their body. People perform elective surgery on themselves in the form of plastic surgery and body modification and even sex changes. That is also none of your business. People circumcise their children, and although I might argue that is different because it's not technically their body, but their child's body, and usually unnecessary, circumcision is still legal. Drinking and smoking are regulated, but legal. Prescription drugs which can have addictive and harmful side-effects are heavily regulated, but legal. Unwed sexual relations are legal. One night stands and gift-giving is legal. Pornography is legal. But prostitution is illegal?
legalization allows several things to happen:
1. All sex workers can be accounted for, and their safety and well-being can be more closely monitored, and you can even require regular testing to look for diseases, which improves safety and public health.
2. Sex workers will be allowed to have legal protections, so it will be more difficult to abuse them and exploit them.
3. Sex workers will be required to report all income, and that taxable income could be used to pay for their medical testing and any mandatory drug rehabilitation if they are found to be using dangerous illegal drugs. Again, this improves public health and the well-being of those who were outcasts and on the fringe of society.
4. We can stop wasting police time and tax dollars on this silly issue. Maybe we could have more cops protecting us against armed robbery and hard drug trafficking.
There's a number of other arguments. However this is already rambling so I'll end it here. Point is, I might hate the idea of prostitution, but I can't stop it, and it really is none of my business, and the benefits of regulation as opposed to keeping it illegal are many, while keeping it illegal does nothing more than put poor people in jail, who will be released very shortly, and go right back to doing it. Oh, and it makes some religious/moral types feel righteous, I suppose. I think it just holds society back from a more tolerant and wise perspective.
@ Prodigal
Please keep this civil and refrain from making personal attacks
Thanks
Prostitution can be made legal everywhere (as opposed to being legal in Nevada and semi-legal in Jersey), that's not a big deal really. The being deal is to make sure that the society at large alwys shuns the profession and and views it as something dirty and unsavory. That, imho, is more important and should never change.
@rvg
Why? If you freely admit that it isn't a big deal, and you would like to make it legal, then why do you feel sex workers should be persecuted and maligned in any way? I think people get depressed and suicidal in such situations precisely because society treats them like freshly pushed poo.
I do not want them *persecuted* at all. However, I never want the society at large to say that prostitution is *normal* or *okay*. Legality of it is one thing (and that doesn't bother me), however, it should never be accepted by society as something positive or even benign. Prostitution should always be bad in the eyes of the general public.Quote:
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy
Okay... sort of like excessive overeating or smoking is starting to be looked down upon?
I can agree to some extent. I just think some people are a bit too self-righteous about things like this, especially if they've ever viewed porn, as an example. I don't like the idea of treating these people like they are scum of the earth when those of us who aren't saints aren't much better.
Just checking to see where you drew the line, rvg.
Yeah, I guess it's sorta like smoking.
Example:
a) Father #1 (beaming with pride): My daughter is a scientist!
b) Father #2 (beaming with pride): My daughter is a CEO!
c) Father #3 (beaming with pride): My daughter is a whore!
C should never be a source of pride.
I don't think anybody here is suggesting persecuting the sex workers themselves, we seem to be agreed that they are the victims in the scenario. It's the :daisy:'s that take advantage of people who are forced into selling their bodies, nearly always because of drug habits that are beyond their control.Quote:
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy
Whilst there might be many in this category, the upper class whores that Silvio Berlusconi has been boning are not doing it for the drugs, they're doing it for the money. Roughly the same amount that takes many people earn in 2 months (the amount was £5,000) for one night!Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
~:smoking:
How is that?Quote:
semi-legal in Jersey
They're not really relevant to the discussion though, as they represent a tiny minority, and they do not in any way represent what prostitution is about.Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk