Baktria

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Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

One of Baktria's Katanks are worth more than one of the Parthia's except Parthia gets like 4x as many.

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Nope. Pahlavân-î Zrêhbarân are better than Hellenikoi Kataphraktoi except for armour (20 compared to 22). Their morale is decidedly better and their secondary weapon deadlier and more useful against armoured opponents.
Admittedly, the "Noble Cataphracts" are a tad overpriced for their morale, but OTOH their heavier version (Grivpanvar) is the strongest recruitable cavalry unit.
Baktrian Late Bodyguards are slightly better than their Pahlavân counterpart, but fare worse against light units (because of the secondary weapon).

Its 25 armor vs 29 armor and 16 morale vs 18 morale.

What are you smoking?

Does it really matter if one is slightly better or not? It's like comparing two gods of nearly equal power, yeah one may beat the other but they will both destroy lesser units.


Also Parthia can recruit more supercats, Baktria only has bodyguards.

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Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

Its 25 armor vs 29 armor and 16 morale vs 18 morale.

What are you smoking?

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I wrote Hellenikoi Kataphraktoi, not Hetairoi... :wall:

Also, you are now comparing a recruitable unit (Grivpanvar) to a Bodyguard unit (HK). That was not at all what I had in mind.
Pahlava has better recruitables than Baktria, whereas their BGs are roughly equal (26 armour, 18 morale, .225 lethality Iranian longsword vs. 29 armour, 18 morale, .11 lethality AP kopis). So, Pahlava wins in terms of quality as well.

The long sword sucks against armor though. Though that doesn't matter because the AP Lance is the single best anti-horse weapon on a horse in the game.

You also have to realize that each point extra of defense adds ~10% of survival to each hit. Not really a big deal until you run into AP units. Baktria still has quality but Parthia is better overall in the wall of ridiculously heavy cavalry contest. That is until Katankaphants show up.

Yeah, but by the time I can recruit armoured Elephants, I've already screwed the AS, Pahlava, and anybody else who might threaten my empire. It takes soo long to get these guys (though admittedly Grivpanvar take a very long time too).

Anti do you want to put in any word about what the Armenian Katanks have to offer or do I really need to go through all that trouble? =] Just saying.

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Originally Posted by athanaric

Yeah, but by the time I can recruit armoured Elephants, I've already screwed the AS, Pahlava, and anybody else who might threaten my empire. It takes soo long to get these guys (though admittedly Grivpanvar take a very long time too).

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I have to agree with you on that. And athanaric...are you REALLY playing all those ongoing campaigns as stated in your sig? Dear lord!

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Originally Posted by vartan

Anti do you want to put in any word about what the Armenian Katanks have to offer or do I really need to go through all that trouble? =] Just saying.

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Indeed, the Armenian Noble Catas have the same stats as Hetairoi. Very nifty. Not to mention the Hye Zoravar...

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I have to agree with you on that. And athanaric...are you REALLY playing all those ongoing campaigns as stated in your sig? Dear lord!

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No worries, ATM I'm concentrating on Pahlava only. The others are still open though, and the saves intact.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

BTW, did you spot the Hai flag in my sig?

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Originally Posted by athanaric

Yeah, but by the time I can recruit armoured Elephants, I've already screwed the AS, Pahlava, and anybody else who might threaten my empire. It takes soo long to get these guys (though admittedly Grivpanvar take a very long time too).

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Well, Batrix does get the Uranus Death Ray pretty early on.

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Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

Well, Batrix does get the Uranus Death Ray pretty early on.

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Yeah but there's no way they can afford it early on.

Of course not. Batrix is the poor agrarian neighbour of Bartix. One must wonder how they have not been annexed yet.

Poor agraran beekeepers. Have you not heard of the giant bees tamed by the natives of Batrix? Their fearsome Apidae Kataphractoi are quite formidable.

Back to topic, please.

[QUOTE=athanaric;2378283]Indeed, the Armenian Noble Catas have the same stats as Hetairoi. Very nifty. Not to mention the Hye Zoravar...QUOTE]

Plus the Armenian varient has good stamina as opposed to the poor stamina of every other cataphract in the game making them somewhat more flexible. That said the armor does not compare.

Hye Zoravar are the exact same as the reformed Pahlava general's bg, are they not?

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Originally Posted by Brave Brave Sir Robin

Hye Zoravar are the exact same as the reformed Pahlava general's bg, are they not?

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Not exactly. They have two points of body armour less, plus their secondary weapon is a mace (0.165 lethality, AP) as opposed to the sword of the Parthian guys.

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Originally Posted by athanaric

I wrote Hellenikoi Kataphraktoi, not Hetairoi... :wall:

Also, you are now comparing a recruitable unit (Grivpanvar) to a Bodyguard unit (HK). That was not at all what I had in mind.
Pahlava has better recruitables than Baktria, whereas their BGs are roughly equal (26 armour, 18 morale, .225 lethality Iranian longsword vs. 29 armour, 18 morale, .11 lethality AP kopis). So, Pahlava wins in terms of quality as well.

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Not to disagree with what you said, but I think you should take the following into account.

https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/...PIC_3198-1.jpg

What you see is a find from a Tomb in Prodromi, Epeiros, currently residing in Igoumenitsa Arcaeological museum.

The long kopis in better detail, (I apologize for the quality of the pic)
https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/...PIC_3199-1.jpg

It shows a cavalry iron muscle thorax (cuirass) which was the strongest form of armor in the world at the time, (Late medieval knights only matched and surpassed it as they had better quality steel) and a long kopis sword. It must have been very expensive however.

Other pics of this iron muscle cuirass,

https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/...2/PIC_0481.jpg


https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/...2/PIC_0480.jpg


https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/...2/PIC_0479.jpg


https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/...2/PIC_0478.jpg

These point that this armor was better than anything Pahlava could produce at the time, and the long kopis wasn't all that lacking in sheer power as well. I am positive that Baktria used the above to great effect as well as the Iranian armor which was present and available at that time.

There is a metric ton (literally) of evidence we at EB have been using when creating EB and EBII. We didn't just made things up. What we can't do, even if we wanted to, is explain everything in detail, as the limited time we have should be better used making EBII.

Looking at those photos, maybe it would be more accurate to say Baktria had curassiers :beam:

Keravnos, thanks for the pictures (do you have more? :clown::yes:).
I was arguing from a gameplay perspective, however, and Kopis type swords feel kinda weak in the game (although Hetairoi Kataphraktoi would probably win against other BGs nonetheless).

Just a quick question for our experts: I made some weapon and armor models (the cavalry kopis in keravnos´ pic being one of them) for a Mount&Blade cataphract project.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://img18.imageshack.us/img18/4482/65272801.jpg

But I´ve no idea what material(s) they used for the handle...Pearl?Ivory? Or just "ordinary" wood? Would be great if someone could help me out on that one...:sweatdrop:

IIRC, each sword had its own. It is all possible that the iron sword you see had a wooden handle over the Iron base, but I doubt it, seeing that his owner was probably a very rich and powerful general.

There were also bronze handles like these,
https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/...3/PIC_0884.jpg

which were attached on the iron xiphos or kopis.

Pictorial evidence (paintings from tombs) shows that this was the norm, meaning a bronze "sculpted" handle over the iron sword.

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Originally Posted by Bava

Just a quick question for our experts: I made some weapon and armor models (the cavalry kopis in keravnos´ pic being one of them) for a Mount&Blade cataphract project.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://img18.imageshack.us/img18/4482/65272801.jpg

But I´ve no idea what material(s) they used for the handle...Pearl?Ivory? Or just "ordinary" wood? Would be great if someone could help me out on that one...:sweatdrop:

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Wow, that is really excellent work!

My first thought is that they'd be bound in leather for grip. Pearl may be pretty, but it's not very useful in battle.

I love the idea of the royal army with the FL/FH and regional armies with Indo Greek, steppe and Persian flavours. The cav-heavy army a few posts back is quite justifiable: didn't Antiochus Megas beat a pure cav Baktrian force on his anabasis?

My Baktria campaigns have all crashed out IIRC, but in my latest I had 95% VC and a vague plan for an Elephant corps (FH and about 10 elephants, half bare and half katas) that would follow daddy (ie FL) around and reinforce battles under AI control: fun with elephants!

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IRC, each sword had its own. It is all possible that the iron sword you see had a wooden handle over the Iron base, but I doubt it, seeing that his owner was probably a very rich and powerful general.

There were also bronze handles like these,

PIC

which were attached on the iron xiphos or kopis.

Pictorial evidence (paintings from tombs) shows that this was the norm, meaning a bronze "sculpted" handle over the iron sword.

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Thanks a lot for the input, Keravnos!

Iron+bronze should be an interesting mix. Maybe I´ll add a leather wrap as Subaton suggested, too. :beam:

Regards,
bava

I don't think that leather was used in the handles of the swords. It would be either wood, or metal, based on all I have seen and read. Leather would be used for shields.

For example, what many people don't know is that aspides were wooden and lined on the inside with leather.
The bronze thin sheet covering the outside of the shield was very thin to offer itself some protection. What it did do is stop blunt instruments with the force of the blow being absorbed by the wooden interior.

Most shields did not have metal covers, but few of those survived (in fragments). Nearly all of those we have are of the bronze clad variety.

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Originally Posted by keravnos

Not to disagree with what you said, but I think you should take the following into account.


These point that this armor was better than anything Pahlava could produce at the time, and the long kopis wasn't all that lacking in sheer power as well. I am positive that Baktria used the above to great effect as well as the Iranian armor which was present and available at that time.

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Are you saying pure steel armours are better than chainmal? :sweatdrop:
I know the EB team is wokring hard and are specialists in their topics, but that goes against everything I ever read about armour.:sweatdrop:

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Originally Posted by seienchin

Are you saying pure steel armours are better than chainmal? :sweatdrop:
I know the EB team is wokring hard and are specialists in their topics, but that goes against everything I ever read about armour.:sweatdrop:

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So, you probably read that those knights wore their heavy and inflexible plate mail only because it looks so much more badass than chain? ~;)
I'm not going to dive into a debate, but I'll drop one point: Chainmail doesn't do a very good job at protecting against kinetic force, rigid armor does.
Edit: I think chainmail could be a bit "hyped", because some time it became popular to tell people: "It's better than you think!" Don't get me wrong, chainmail was a well-proven type of protection over millenia, but the pinnacle of metal armor still are the late plate armors, which vastly improved over time with better methods of getting the best out of the material and of fitting the armor to its bearer (it even kind of made the shield obsolete: late knights didn't wear shields anymore!).