According to christian beliefs, where's Gandhi now?

That quote, "No one shall come to the Father except through me" and people's reactions to it have always confused me a little. Is Jesus actually saying "you have to accept and believe in me to come to the Father"? No, not really. Perhaps he meant (which seems more likely to me) that no one shall go to heaven without my forgiveness? Whatever the case, I fear we are putting words in his mouth when we use that phrase to justify the point of view that non-Christians don't go to heaven.

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Who said we think for ourselves? It may seem so, but appearances are deceptive. Who is to say we are not but automatons... He does not even need to control us. We are our own slaves.

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That way madness lies... or at least, that way the twisting of logic and nihilism lies. I'll fall back on a misused and abused quote: "I think therefore I am"

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Originally Posted by Myrddraal

That way madness lies... or at least, that way the twisting of logic and nihilism lies.

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Yeah, been there, done that, still there.

EDIT: Nihilism-absurdism, that is me... Nothing surprising for my age and standing.

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Yeah, been there, done that, still there.

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That's deep, coming from a nihilist :wink:

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

Who said we think for ourselves? It may seem so, but appearances are deceptive. Who is to say we are not but automatons, believing we have free will, yet always choosing predictable choices based on personality, upbringing, other people, general environment, etc... Does God not know every step we will make in our lives before we are even born? He does not even need to control us. We are our own slaves.

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Originally Posted by Myrddraal

That way madness lies... or at least, that way the twisting of logic and nihilism lies. I'll fall back on a misused and abused quote: "I think therefore I am"

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If I go to get some ice cream, what flavor I choose is entirely predictable based on past experiences with taste and genetic programming. I'm a slave to my own taste. I may think I have a choice, but the process is automatic.

But I still get to eat my favorite ice cream...which I bought because it's my favorite...and it's delicious. Deny that, nihilists.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

In heaven or hell?

This is one of the main reason why I'll never be a christian was a Hindu. He did not follow christ, and as such shouldn't be in heaven right? Only through me and all that... If he isn't in heaven, then he must be in Hell, or I guess somewhere less pleasing than heaven for those who do not believe in hell. Can't claim the ignorance and limbo thing on him either, as he certainly knew about christianity and jesus, but decided not to convert.

But what god would punish Gandhi? Seriously? The man who organized a succesful independence movement not through war, but through total nonviolence, and also inspired a bunch of other nonviolence movements all over the world. To punish such a man would be rather.... evil, wouldn't it? On the other hand, if he isn't punished in any way, if he got into heaven ass a Hindu, then what's the point of accepting christ then? I could just go about being a good boy, and no harm will come to me in the afterlife...

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It depends entirely upon what truly matters on this Earth. If it was to belong to a certain religion, you could say that the rest doesn't matter. It would be like a child molester risking his own life in order to rescue someone from certain death - there is going to be something ambiguous about his reputation no matter what he does.

If a deity defines the meaning of life to be something different than what you do, there's little do be done about that. ~D

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

If I go to get some ice cream, what flavor I choose is entirely predictable based on past experiences with taste and genetic programming. I'm a slave to my own taste. I may think I have a choice, but the process is automatic.

But I still get to eat my favorite ice cream...which I bought because it's my favorite...and it's delicious. Deny that, nihilists.

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That argument gets very interesting when it comes to homosexuality. But that is a different subject.

According to what I learned when I was a christrian for many years(Baptist), he's burning in hell right now and will be for all eternity. Probaly by a demon with a british accent.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Right, ok. It is relevent, because Ghandi's actions are de-valued if motivated by a belief in Indian superiority, which undermines your argument somewhat. Christianity is about turning towards God, rather than away from him. Those who do turn to God go to be with him when they die, those that don't, don't.

Whether Hell is actually a litteral pit or not is not that important. Hell is to be without God, which is to be without anything. I tend to think of it like screaming alone in the darkness for all eternity, without the comfort of darkness or the relief of being able to scream. Christianity isn't actually about Heaven and Hell, they are tangentile. Christianity is about the relationship between the individual and God.

You are complaining that Christianity would condemn Ghandi to an eternity without God, but by your own admission he wasn't interested in being with God to begin with.

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So..... Gandhi gets to burn in an eternity, or whatever other punishment your god decides to give him.

Thanks for the answer.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

In heaven or hell?

Is there a christian here who can address this for me?

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It depends greatly on the variety of Christianity in question. The Mormon view of the afterlife is significantly different from more common Christian interpretations. We don't believe in any hell of fire and torment and demons and whatnot. Complete banishment of the sort PVC seems to consider hell is reserved only for those with an intimate knowledge and understanding of God who still willfully choose to resist his will. For us, the vast majority of folks would end up in one of three kingdoms of glory, each more wonderful than the last. The factors affecting where you end up are complex and open to interpretation, so I couldn't give you too explicit an idea of what it takes to end up where, and ultimately it's a matter of God's divine love and justice that I doubt I would understand anyway.

Of course, we also believe it's possible to turn to God after death, so for us there's no way of saying for sure that Gandhi isn't a Christian by now. That brings up your other good point about why bother if it won't make any difference whether you become a Christian in this life or not. Presumably there are benefits to making the choice as early as possible, but their exact nature is hard to define. Perhaps something along the line of regrets, knowing how much more good one could have done had they surrendered to God's will earlier. Hard to say.

Ajax

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Still in hell MUHAHAHAHAHAHA the fool

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Hell

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Originally Posted by Mooks

According to what I learned when I was a christrian for many years(Baptist), he's burning in hell right now and will be for all eternity. Probaly by a demon with a british accent.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

So..... Gandhi gets to burn in an eternity, or whatever other punishment your god decides to give him.

Thanks for the answer.

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Same thing here... Gandhi suffer all eternity in hell, because he did reject God. In Reformed theology, he wasn't among the chosen, so he deserve to suffer all eternity in hell because of his sins.

Yeah, Jesus said no one can go to heaven except through believe in Him... and Gandhi doesn't believe Jesus, he just think that Jesus is a good morality teacher, but Gandhi doesn't believe he was the Messiah, the only way of Salvation. So that leave only one probability, the Holy Spirit didn't reveal the way of Salvation to him... So he deserve to be in hell, all eternity....

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Originally Posted by ajaxfetish

The Mormon view of the afterlife is significantly different from more common Christian interpretations. We don't believe in any hell of fire and torment and demons and whatnot. Complete banishment of the sort PVC seems to consider hell is reserved only for those with an intimate knowledge and understanding of God who still willfully choose to resist his will.

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Gandhi studied every major religion extensively, and definitely had an intimate understand and knowledge of christianity.

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Originally Posted by Beskar

You haven't been going to bible classes.

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I haven't? Now that's interesting, how do you know? :inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by Beskar

He never gave us that, technically, satan embodied through a snake actually gave us freedom, by making Adam and Eve eat the apple through their choice, thus, create sin by disobeying god. By eating the apple, Adam and Eve came to know what good and evil are, that evil is going against god and being good is obeying him.

The other consequences from this is that man realised what it was to think for ourselves, opposed to having others think for us (ie: god).

Quite interesting, don't you think?

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Indeed, it is, I find it very interesting that god's puppets were apparently ordered by god (since they had no free will as you say) to listen to the snake and eat the apple despite god's orders not to. Yeah, sure, no sign of free will or decision-making there...

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

Who said we think for ourselves? It may seem so, but appearances are deceptive. Who is to say we are not but automatons, believing we have free will, yet always choosing predictable choices based on personality, upbringing, other people, general environment, etc... Does God not know every step we will make in our lives before we are even born? He does not even need to control us. We are our own slaves.

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So you're talking about a deterministic world where every atom and every photon will more or less spark a chain reaction or change that of another and these things chainreactions are basically hat makes the universe "move", that's a view I thought about before, kinda destroys the american dream, doesn't it? In fact i think it would make everything completely meaningless and that's exactly where i stop thinking about it because from there it's only going in circles and this automaton does not like circles.

Oh, and what Myrddraal said.

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Originally Posted by Husar

Indeed, it is, I find it very interesting that god's puppets were apparently ordered by god (since they had no free will as you say) to listen to the snake and eat the apple despite god's orders not to. Yeah, sure, no sign of free will or decision-making there...

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What decision making?

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

So..... Gandhi gets to burn in an eternity, or whatever other punishment your god decides to give him.

Thanks for the answer.

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No, that isn't what I said at all. Take a look at some of the qualifiers in the post, and look at the rest of my posts in this thread.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Gandhi studied every major religion extensively, and definitely had an intimate understand and knowledge of christianity.

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That's not the same as an intimate understanding and knowledge of God. I'd say most believers don't really have that. Ultimately, only God knows who's really had their shot and who hasn't.

Ajax

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Originally Posted by Beskar

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Originally Posted by Husar

Indeed, it is, I find it very interesting that god's puppets were apparently ordered by god (since they had no free will as you say) to listen to the snake and eat the apple despite god's orders not to. Yeah, sure, no sign of free will or decision-making there...

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What decision making?

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God's decision to let the snake in, that caused the original sin. That, or God is seriously lacking in his omipotence.

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Originally Posted by Beskar

What decision making?

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How about the decision to eat the apple despite god's order not to eat them?
There was temptation involved, why would the snake need to temptate them if they would either
a) only do what god told them, in this case any temptation would bear no fruit, or
b) do whatever anyone told them to, in this case temptation would be superfluous, an order would get there faster

The snake made a tempting offer and convinced Eve to the point where she decided to break the rules and eat the apple, then Eve convinced Adam to decide to break the rules, too and that's why they were thrown out of paradise, because they gave in to temptation and decided to break the rules (aka sinning).

It's worth pointing out that "limbo" is not official Catholic doctrine.

Just sayin....

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Yeah, Jesus said no one can go to heaven except through believe in Him...

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See this is what gets me. The quote is:
"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

The leap from these words to:
"Nobody goes to heaven unless they are Christian"
is substantial.

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Originally Posted by Myrddraal

See this is what gets me. The quote is:
"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

The leap from these words to:
"Nobody goes to heaven unless they are Christian"
is substantial.

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I fail to see the difference. Please explain how so there is a difference.

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Originally Posted by Husar

How about the decision to eat the apple despite god's order not to eat them?
There was temptation involved, why would the snake need to temptate them if they would either
a) only do what god told them, in this case any temptation would bear no fruit, or
b) do whatever anyone told them to, in this case temptation would be superfluous, an order would get there faster

The snake made a tempting offer and convinced Eve to the point where she decided to break the rules and eat the apple, then Eve convinced Adam to decide to break the rules, too and that's why they were thrown out of paradise, because they gave in to temptation and decided to break the rules (aka sinning).

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Even more interesting, Adam and Eve really get in trouble when they try to hide their Sin from God, despite knowing it was wrong. This is the real birth of "Original Sin" in my eyes, the Mens Rea, the guilty mind.

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

It's worth pointing out that "limbo" is not official Catholic doctrine.

Just sayin....

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Quite, a cultured Italian poet mourning his lost love has had the last word on the Christian immagination.

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

I fail to see the difference. Please explain how so there is a difference.

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Neither the words "belief" nor "salvation" are contained in that statement.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Neither the words "belief" nor "salvation" are contained in that statement.

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Yeah, and if the Bible was that obvious as you expect it to be in this case, then it would be a technical manual or a SparkNotes/CliffsNotes (tm) book...



Y’know, I never doubted why all the greatest of the philosophers/prophets never wrote down their beliefs - Socrates, Jesus, Buddha, Lao Tzu (according to the story, he never wanted to write anything and when leaving the Middle Kingdom for ever, before his death, border guard persuaded Lao Tzu, after a long argument, that he should leave behind a written work; so Lao Tzu did, writing a single page.)

It is because it is easier, more convenient, more popular, more efficient to leave the text as ambiguous as possible to allow multiple interpretations without watering and stripping down the message overmuch. Pick n’ choose as well as ‘my own interpretation’ is what creates and sustains the countless Christian denominations. It has let centuries of ‘believers’ to accommodate all sorts of rubbish with their ‘faith’.

This is one of the few areas where Islam is clearly superior. Islam is not ambiguous. It was also written by its founding prophet. Mohammed himself noted the same two propensities I observed, and he spoke against them, eventually writing down the Quaran, a book almost as good as the Hammurabi’s Code, in the sense that it was as lucid and coherent as it could possibly be.

He, Mohammed, also managed to write much more than a simple lawbook, and he himself insisted that the only miracle Allah has shown through him was the writing of Quaran - how could I, a poorly-literate Mohammed write such a spring of wisdom, stele of beauty and elegance - he said (I paraphrased - forgot his exact quote)??
(I will overlook the opinions of the great many landmark Western writers that Quaran is jumbled and incomprehensible, even in its original - and Quaran is rarely translated, as translations fail miserably with it)

For an analogy:

“I am France”.

But you don't have to come to me to visit France.

Ah, and wheel still turns. I'd say more, except Im convinced we're all wrong. So debate away.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Still in hell MUHAHAHAHAHAHA the fool

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:laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

It's worth pointing out that "limbo" is not official Catholic doctrine.

Just sayin....

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Considering that it haven't been branded as a heretical belief, it has been a acceptable doctrine though. I'm guessing on it being a "having the cake and eat it" for the Catholic church.

Actually, it was dismissed by the Roman Church a few years ago.

Don't Muslims admit that the Koran contradicts itself, but where it does, you just go with whatever either the first or last (can't remember which) verse on the matter says.

Then again, I heard that from a YEC, so don't flame me please!

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

Don't Muslims admit that the Koran contradicts itself, but where it does, you just go with whatever either the first or last (can't remember which) verse on the matter says.

Then again, I heard that from a YEC, so don't flame me please!

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Hehe, how funny that you say so, because the local YEC nuts say the same. But if you compare the two holy books, the Bible is like a cubist work whereas Quaran is a German technical blueprint. Quaran was meant to be so. The Bible - who knows what its writers thought. They were many, so they all had different styles and ideas... All the more confusion.

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

It's worth pointing out that "limbo" is not official Catholic doctrine.

Just sayin....

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Wow... I stand corrected. Thinking about it, my info IS over 40 years old; back then the Dominican Nuns & Jesuit Priests taught Limbo as the kind of suburb of Heaven, where unbaptised kids and pre-Jesus good people hung out.

I guess that's what I get for having 'fallen away', not being up on the latest changes in policy.