Backroom Poll. The (major) Religious Affiliation in Backroom...

I personally dislike Catholics for what I view as archaic beliefs, but this is outweighed by my respect for the Catholic intellectual tradition and their lack of anti-intellectualism in comparison to other Christian denominations. In fact, Catholicism long stimulated scholasticism and sciences (as well as opposing the latter, for that matter, so it is mixed - but what matters is that Catholicism did inspire science, and it created the conditions which inspired such studies).

Sources: That is what Joseph Campbell said at least :shrug:

Ah that it did. While in some ways it stifled it overall increased knowledge and helped the West to Dominance. Renaissance was most definitely helped along by the generous patronage of the Church as were other events.

Catholicism also played the role of preserver after the end of the Roman Empire by retaining knowledge in monastery's and libraries.

Great book on just that subject is How the Irish Saved Civilization.

Canaanite?

I'd have voted in this poll if it had "areligious" or some variant of that instead of "atheist". I am not an atheist, and voting "other" just sucks.

EDIT: Oh boy, the OP. An agnost is NOT a deist.

EDIT2: Cute Wolf, just cause I'm interested, are you perhaps Moluccan (Ambonese) or something? Being Christian and all.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

The best one I've heard someone describe themselves as is an apatheist. One who does not care if there is a God.

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There is also concepts such as Metaphysical naturalism which readily get dismissed. [definition: see below]

So technicially, I would be more of an athiest-antitheist-metaphysical naturalist-ignostic as I ascribe to different thoughts at different levels, in form of a construct.

To explain this, I will explain the order of importance and thought.

Main fundamental aspect is the ignostic.

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The view that a coherent definition of God must be presented before the question of the existence of God can be meaningfully discussed. Furthermore, if that definition is unfalsifiable, the ignostic takes the theological noncognitivist position that the question of the existence of God (per that definition) is meaningless. In this case, the concept of God is not considered meaningless; the term "God" is considered meaningless.

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If god means wolves to those in that tribe, means the river in another, or means the king in that culture, and all those other definitions and examples, how can you actually talk about the existance of god? Also, that wolf is just a wolf, that river is just a river, that king is just a king. If they are something I term 'Massively Powerful Being', then they are just that, a massively powerful being, may it be an advanced Artifical Intelligence UFO at the centre of the galaxy which can manulipate things at a quantum level or otherwise. The application of 'god' to these things is seemingly and obviously meaningless.

Secondly, as some one with a background in science (Since I have a BSc and a MSc), I am a metaphysical naturalist.

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Metaphysical naturalism regards nature as all that exists or can exist, and assumes that observable events in nature are explainable only by resort to empirically observable causes. Consequently, supernatural agency is discounted, as are some abstractions thought to be independent of the physical universe (e.g., numbers).

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Though, if we cannot currently observe or measure events, I believe in that we can do in the future, thus nature is everything is that exists or can exist.

Due to these points, I tend to hold an antitheist opinion.

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Antitheism (sometimes anti-theism) is active opposition to theism. The etymological roots of the word are the Greek 'anti-' and 'theismos'. The term has had a range of applications; in secular contexts, it typically refers to direct opposition to organized religion or to the belief in any deity, while in a theistic context, it sometimes refers to opposition to a specific god or gods.

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Since organised religion conflicts with the first two points (plus the fact they are generally a means of control and power), I tend to have an antitheist element.

Finally, as god cannot be defined, and most definitions of god attempt to say he is supernatural, and as a naturalist, I am opposed to this, and the fact all these organised religions are obviously not correct. I take the final stance that there must not be a 'god;.

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Atheism, defined most narrowly, is the position that there are no deities. More broadly defined, it is the rejection of belief in the existence of any deities, with or without an assertion that no deities exist. The broadest definition classifies atheism as the absence of belief that any deities exist.

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I am not sure if the people who are selecting "atheist" agree with my reasoning or my points, for what reasons they have of their own. However, I think the underlying thinking and stance I sort of laid out above explains why I naturally conclude as I do.

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Originally Posted by The Wizard

EDIT: Oh boy, the OP. An agnost is NOT a deist.

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I already said that in my first reply. I doubt he is going to change it.

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Agnosticism is the view that the truth value of certain claims—especially claims about the existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims—is unknown or unknowable.[1] Agnosticism can be defined in various ways, and is sometimes used to indicate doubt or a skeptical approach to questions. In some senses, agnosticism is a stance about the differences between belief and knowledge, rather than about any specific claim or belief.

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Aka, Agnostics don't have a belief there is a god. However, they believe we do not have the knowledge as to assertain there is actually is or is not a god.

Arguably, it is classified as "weak atheism", because they actually possess no belief, but they do not adopt an null hypothesis that atheism possesses to reject the existence altogether. The null hypothesis is basically the idea there is nothing, no difference, etc, many athiests reject the belief because there is no knowledge of god, therefore, it is like me saying "I have fairies living at the bottom of my garden", without any proof that they are infact fairies at the bottom of my garden and I can't provide, then they hold the belief that I do not have any fairies at the bottom of my garden.

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

Whats up with all the Catholic bashing!! Maybe most of my Church will take it but you better watch out.

Yeah strike we may have our idols but at least we dont dance with snakes. :laugh:

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Originally Posted by Strike

The only true christians are protestants, catholics are idol worshipers.

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That is such a broad and ridiculous statement i'm not sure whethe rto take you seriously.

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Oh, I would take SFTS very seriously. He hates Catholics. Me, a firm Catholic myself, founder of the Facebook group 'Benedict (pbuh) for EU president', am constantly outraged by Strike's Catho-bashing, by his perennial diatribes about (imagined) Catholic attacks on secular Texas.

I don't understand it. The guy's obviously got issues. Shame. Otherwise, he's a reasonable chap. :book:


Edit: meh, suppose I should add the disclaimer that all of the above is meant for entertainment purposes only.

Protestants tend to revile Catholics, until something of a spiritual crisis within the faith emerges, and then they actually take the advice of the Papacy... it's a funny dynamic.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

The best one I've heard someone describe themselves as is an apatheist. One who does not care if there is a God.

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ooohh *claps hands* that sounds like me! cheers CA.

and lol at Strike, i find myself in sympathy with that view speaking as a Brit.

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

Well, agnostics are atheists, necessarily. I like the word "antitheist" a lot though.

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An agnostic is a person who doesn't know if there any gods or believes it is impossible to know. An atheist is someone who knows that there are no gods. It would be far more accurate to put the Christians and Muslims in with the Jews since they all worship the same god.

My particular brand of agnosticism is actually bordering on the apathetic, but since I am replying to a religious question here, I can't be completely apathetic can I :tongue:

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

I personally dislike Catholics for what I view as archaic beliefs, but this is outweighed by my respect for the Catholic intellectual tradition and their lack of anti-intellectualism in comparison to other Christian denominations. In fact, Catholicism long stimulated scholasticism and sciences (as well as opposing the latter, for that matter, so it is mixed - but what matters is that Catholicism did inspire science, and it created the conditions which inspired such studies).

Sources: That is what Joseph Campbell said at least :shrug:

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Didn't the catholics burn heaps of books containing advanced knowledge (in comparison to their own) during the reconquista?
That's what we learned in highschool anyway, that the moors were quite advanced in fields like medicine and the catholics burned all their libraries etc. regardless.

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Originally Posted by Beskar

I am not sure if the people who are selecting "atheist" agree with my reasoning or my points, for what reasons they have of their own.

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I would vehemently agree or disagree, but I guess I'm just too much of an apatheist. I simply don't believe in (any concept of) a Christian God no more than I believe in re-incarnation or animism.

The conflicting notion to me is not atheist - 'Christian' deity. It is, rather, no belief - belief. I don't have a ready philosophy that disputes each and every single form of belief, every single god. The number of gods being virtually infinite - such is the scope of human imagination - it would be a practical impossibility too to have a ready negation of all of them.

I am simply atheistic towards all of them in much the same way a Christian is atheistic towards all of them. With the sole difference that I don't believe in one more god.

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Didn't the catholics burn heaps of books containing advanced knowledge (in comparison to their own) during the reconquista?
That's what we learned in highschool anyway, that the moors were quite advanced in fields like medicine and the catholics burned all their libraries etc. regardless.

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Yes but typically in the make us feel bad brand of western education they don't mention the libraries worth of books Christians saved from the ravaging barbarians of the dark ages nor the thousands of books that monks and other clergy wrote during this time. Even the crusade which is Christianity's worst moment (debatable in my mind) the Crusade's lasting legacy was the spread of culture and technology.

Edit: and thank you Louis for confusing me even further. I assume your comment was not serious as well. Ah well we know all Frenchmen are all Catholics they just try to appear more cultured and cosmopolitan :wink:

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and lol at Strike, i find myself in sympathy with that view speaking as a Brit.

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Please are you referring to COE? That was a political split more than anything else. Your sister church in the Us are Anglicans, no? Basically Catholics except you have women priest, which is a capital idea.

Imagine for a moment if the Church had given the king that divorce and he hadn't made the split....... Oh Mr. Turtledove I have your next idea

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

I personally dislike Catholics for what I view as archaic beliefs, but this is outweighed by my respect for the Catholic intellectual tradition and their lack of anti-intellectualism in comparison to other Christian denominations. In fact, Catholicism long stimulated scholasticism and sciences (as well as opposing the latter, for that matter, so it is mixed - but what matters is that Catholicism did inspire science, and it created the conditions which inspired such studies).

Sources: That is what Joseph Campbell said at least :shrug:

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I see it quite similiar. I also dislike Catholics for their archaic beliefs and conservative mentality. But the amount of stuff christian monks safed from antiquity is just amazing. Then comes all the culture, the support for art and architecture. If you travel through Europe nearly every monument has something to do with the Catholics.
It's always easy for "us" non-religion people wo wave the finger at the Roman church. But really you have to give em a lot of credit for many things.

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I see it quite similiar. I also dislike Catholics for their archaic beliefs and conservative mentality. But the amount of stuff christian monks safed from antiquity is just amazing. Then comes all the culture, the support for art and architecture. If you travel through Europe nearly every monument has something to do with the Catholics.
It's always easy for "us" non-religion people wo wave the finger at the Roman church. But really you have to give em a lot of credit for many things.

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Thank you I want to frame this. You don't have to like my faith, but it is nice for someone to acknowledgesome of the good we have done for the world.

and conservative catholicism....... maybe in some ways but many catholics vote liberally in the US (actually i think it is relatively evenly split.)

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That is such a broad and ridiculous statement i'm not sure whethe rto take you seriously.

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1. I don't dance with snakes, I'm not a pencoastal.

2. If you want to know what my church taught me please refer to this quote; “Life in Texas, taught me two things: One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell. The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love.”

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4. Catholic=Yankee=Damned yellow bellied Communist

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I love how Catholics and Protestants have broken out in a fight in this thread.

It just speaks volumes.

i have never had a problem with a protestant in my life...... before now.

Edit: rather foolishly he links anglo-saxon to protestant. Hey the wasp ideals are over. I'm english too on my mothers side.

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

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That could've been better. I would've have liked to see refrences to some of the following: Nascar, Meth, Wife beating, Obesity, Our low Iqs.

Not bad , the KKK refrences are outdated though

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Hey man, I spelled more than that correctly.
Clearly my post is meant to be taken in jest, Let's take a deep breath

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

Look, I had an Indonesian friend in 8th grade, I know how it generally is (very generally), but whatever it is, from what I heard was that Indonesia was on average much more religious than any average Western secular nation, and I did not think that one of the most crucial components of Islam escaped from you. But it says good things about you and your country IMHO, if you know so little about Islam ~;) - you can try to find out yourself why, or ask me if you give up :yes:

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That was the entire 8th grade always think about themself, no offence, a 8th grade students will most likely follow what his teacher said at school :wink:, no, to be honest, I was 21 years old, allready travelled to many parts of Indonesia, and you must know that most Indonesian aren't religious at all... yeah, it was a fact that religion is officially taught at school, and even it was a one important aspect to determine your graduation for most schools. BUT, Once they reach Highschool / University age, they'll grow either to become neglacting Religions, or become a fanatical one. Listen up, the fact that Indonesia is still a secular country lies in this important fact, most of didn't took religion seriously. I suggest you come here and see, wht kind of thigies sold at the market for open... yeah, beers and porks are still a common goodies, and most of my "muslim" friends still enjoy them. And everytime when the 5 times of muslim praying was up, only a handful of my muslim friends does the actual praying... the rest? they don't pray at all. You dare to call that behaviour religious? :wink:

Oh yeah, if you still want to said that was my "isolated incident" you should learn where I live, and I allready observe that behaviour everywhere... I lived in Bandung, west Java, a region which fanatical hardliners has a considerable influence. A region where islamic terrorists are highest, and the fact that west java are the province with highest incident of chruch and temple burning. But while islamic values are practiced in hard way for some men, most commoners are actually never become a religious person at all. The problem with this are the hard-liner muslims more often comes from the highly educated class and constantly spread the propaganda (Indonesian is a religious country).... that was a delibrate LIES.

BTW, of course, you may said my viewpoints are distorted because I was a "minority" group of Christians.... that's why I ask you to ask Sonic, as he was once hard liner muslims, but now he turns to be hedonistic emo guy..

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That could've been better. I would've have liked to see refrences to some of the following: Nascar, Meth, Wife beating, Obesity, Our low Iqs.

Not bad , the KKK refrences are outdated though


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Hey man, I spelled more than that correctly.
Clearly my post is meant to be taken in jest, Let's take a deep breath

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If you were kidding i am very sorry. I am very sensitive about my heritage though.

And i couldnt mention the nascar.......... because i watch sometimes *hangs head in shame*

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Meth, Wife beating, Obesity, Our low Iqs.

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I'll work on that.

Personally i found you evolution of the yankee rather good. especially since it ended with cowardly communists. Really very cliched and insulting. Also enraging if you think someone is serious.

by the way im not from the northeast and my father, while from conneticut is ashamed and tells everyone he was born somewhere else. I'd say where but it would be rather hard to believe.

now that i think of it i should have brought up texas. dam

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

the KKK

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See, I knew it. Your posts have long konvinced me of your pyromaniac Saturday night hobbies and diverse use of bedsheets. :no:


Have you people still not learned the value of diversity and understanding??

https://img195.imageshack.us/img195/6279/kkkbj.jpg

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

If you were kidding i am very sorry. I am very sensitive about my heritage though.

And i couldnt mention the nascar.......... because i watch sometimes *hangs head in shame*

I'll work on that.

Personally i found you evolution of the yankee rather good. especially since it ended with cowardly communists. Really very cliched and insulting. Also enraging if you think someone is serious.

by the way im not from the northeast and my father, while from conneticut is ashamed and tells everyone he was born somewhere else. I'd say where but it would be rather hard to believe.

now that i think of it i should have brought up texas. dam

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Its fine man, It was a mistake on my part thinking you would just "know". My aplogies

Anyone outside of Texas is a yankee to a Texan.

@ Louis :love:

By the way i got into Texas Tech. And Texas A&M. after this little conversation i think it best if i don't go though. :laugh:

And i lived in Texas for a couple years. Corpus Christi actually before my father retired.

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

By the way i got into Texas Tech. And Texas A&M. after this little conversation i think it best if i don't go though. :laugh:

And i lived in Texas for a couple years. Corpus Christi actually before my father retired.

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Check your PMs

God forbid we derail this theard /joke ~;)

I am now finished i hope you enjoyed the debacle of the young american come close to killing somebody.

Please keep all discussion civil. Whilst I understand that the above comments were in jest, if they are please remember to use smilies, or use a disclaimer as Louis did in his earlier post. It is very easy for someone to skim through this thread and think that the stereotyping is entirely serious.

I thought this is interessting. Just to make it clear; this is only statistics:

https://i.imgur.com/kpb5A.png

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

Please are you referring to COE? That was a political split more than anything else. Your sister church in the Us are Anglicans, no? Basically Catholics except you have women priest, which is a capital idea.

Imagine for a moment if the Church had given the king that divorce and he hadn't made the split....... Oh Mr. Turtledove I have your next idea

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yup, and the reason why it is so awesome (speaking as an apatheist) is that it does not submit to the authority of rome. nuff said.

that would have been a great shame, we achieved awesome things ever since henry found away to keep on chucking his junk around!