What is the least practical martial art (for seld-defense purposes)?

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Originally Posted by Father Maxi

I think the big mistake Americans make is thinking that martial arts are meant to be used as a way to disarm an opponent. Which is certainly not what most martial arts (in their original form) were all about. Most were plain and simple in the idea that you must disarm and then kill/neutralize that opponent as quickly and effectively as possible, honor be damned. The training is not really up to par with say Shaolin standards because for one, no American would take the kind of abuse that Shaolin monks willingly put themselves through, and second it would probably be illegal to train with traditional means. This was certainly not meant for some average joe-blow to learn in any sort of serious detail, it was something people devoted their entire lives to, and only the best of the best need apply. American "martial arts" trying to mimic eastern styles are a complete sham, better to go with some sort of Mixed Martial art than Karate.

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I am asking here about martial arts, and not the way that they are practiced in one country or another. Any (or at least most any) martial art if practiced correctly can be effective, and if practiced poorly or without the proper amount of effort will be useless at best or dangerous to your health at worst. What I am asking about is which martial art do you think is the least effective for self-defense judged solely on its principles and technical aspects.

Ok, here it is!

EDIT: And yes, I know that some of these are considered sports, but they have martial roots and are still some times practiced for martial purposes.

lol, Eskrima? Why would you pick that Moros?

If the couple people I know who practiced it were indicative of the art, then Capoeira.

I trained in a couple martial arts when younger for about two years. The teacher emphasized what he considered the practical portions of the arts. I became faster, stronger, and more confident. I'm not quite sure how much they prepared me for a fight beyond the direct advantaged from those changes.

Preparing for my current job I was trained in a rather small number of moves in a small number of techniques, backed up by practice and theory based on what worked in the field. We also knew going into those classes that we stood a good chance of having to use what we learned.

The latter has served me much better. In the end I imagine it's a combination of how you're trained and your own beliefs and expectations about what you'll need to do with that training.

I don't know many of those arts, but I chose other for SUMO.

I respectfully disagree about Judo and especially Jujistus. Most fights end up on the ground if the first strikes are not KO-inducing sucker punches.

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Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump

I don't know many of those arts, but I chose other for SUMO.

I respectfully disagree about Judo and especially Jujistus. Most fights end up on the ground if the first strikes are not KO-inducing sucker punches.

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I will admit that jujitsu is a lot more practical than Judo, but honestly, I don't think that either of them are especially practical against someone who knows what he is doing. (or against someone a lot bigger than you...and esp against someone a lot bigger than you who also knows what he is doing. ~;))

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Originally Posted by Vuk

I will admit that jujitsu is a lot more practical than Judo, but honestly, I don't think that either of them are especially practical against someone who knows what he is doing. (or against someone a lot bigger than you...and esp against someone a lot bigger than you who also knows what he is doing. ~;))

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If judo is so unpractical why do judoka's (and kickboxers) dominate in cage-fights. Jiu Jitsu is simply useless. Has two tricks that are practical, one is to get out of a headlock and the other is a palm that kinda paralyses arms

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Originally Posted by Fragony

If judo is so unpractical why do judoka's (and kickboxers) dominate in cage-fights. Jiu Jitsu is simply useless. Has two tricks that are practical, one is to get out of a headlock and the other is a palm that kinda paralyses arms

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Is a cage fight self-defense? Sorry Frags, I used to have a high opinion of Judo too...till I took a class in it and my 6th rank master instructor could not throw me to the ground. :P I asked what one should do if someone resisted in a certain way, and he tried to show me. I resisted his pull, so he pushed me and tried an Osurigari (Yeah, I probably butchered the spelling :P) on me, and I threw him to the ground using Taiji! He tried again and we both ended up being pulled to our knees, but he almost fell flat on his face. He told me later that it was hard with someone my size, but I don't buy that. A martial art should be able to be applied against someone larger than you. My 160lb. female Wing Tsun instructor easily threw me to the ground, yet my 210 lb, 6' 3" Judo instructor could not. That ruined my opinion of Judo forever. Not to mention, that if you throw strikes in, you will butcher a Judoka.

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Originally Posted by Vuk

lol, Eskrima? Why would you pick that Moros?

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Actually I misread. :oops: I was going for the most practical. Though of course it depends on the situation you are in: who you are up against, how many and if and what they are armed with. But eskrima looks in my eyes to be one of the more effective.

If least effective Judo would also come to my mind.

Trick is to use other people's weight. Know the 'paralysing' trick by the way, your chest muscles have an upper and a lower segment, hit them just between them with your palm in an upward strike, it hits really hard they'll think you are gawdzillla, try it on yourself

The only time I ever was in a fight I actually did something like that. Not sure if I struck where you say, but it did work... Never had a class of judo though.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Trick is to use other people's weight. Know the 'paralysing' trick by the way, your chest muscles have an upper and a lower segment, hit them just between them with your palm in an upward strike, it hits really hard they'll think you are gawdzillla, try it on yourself

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I don't know Frags, I was not impressed. Also, my instructor mentioned that there were strikes in the kata, but said that they were not even taught until the higher ranks, and he seemed to think that they were not very practical. Most judokas I have met and talked to seem to think that strikes are useless.

One experience can't be enough to say judo won't work. He tried a few times, so you can be pretty sure that the instructor has big problems with it. Doesn't mean noone can do it.

Least practical; when a kyodo practicer can extend his/her life with 5 years and have a better quality of life because of that, than can it be called unpractical? The whole point of self defence is living, isn't it?

(I understand what you mean, but there's more to it).

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Originally Posted by TosaInu

One experience can't be enough to say judo won't work. He tried a few times, so you can be pretty sure that the instructor has big problems with it. Doesn't mean noone can do it.

Least practical; when a kyodo practicer can extend his/her life with 5 years and have a better quality of life because of that, than can it be called unpractical? The whole point of self defense is living, isn't it?

(I understand what you mean, but there's more to it).

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Actually Tosa, my instructor is of a very high rank, and pretty active in the local Judo community. I am pretty sure that he is legit, just an arrogant arsehead. (I actually have two instructors who teach the class together. One is a very nice, respectful and respectable older gentleman, and the other is a pigheaded, arrogant old man with a bad attitude.) The one I speak of is the latter. He didn't like me from the beginning of the class because I was big, and I asked a lot of questions about how judo would be used against various strikes. (I didn't ask him most times actually, but the other instructor, who was respectful and helpful) He got the idea that I didn't like Judo because I came from striking styles (which wasn't true, as at that time, I thought Judo was one of the best arts out there...before I tried it), and that I had a point to prove. He was wrong, but he still treated me very rudely to the point where he surprised his fellow instructor.
For example, we were practicing the rear naked choke, and when the fellow I was practicing with set it in on me, I instinctively dropped my chin and turned my head to his elbow joint. It was not on purpose, but simply my first reaction when I felt it being slipped in. He yelled at me for that, and then asked the entire class to pay attention as he demonstrated how to set a choke hold in so that someone could not do that. He got behind me and instructed me to hold my chin up and let him put his hand on my neck, and then he choked me so hard (even though I tapped almost instantly) and would not let go so that I had a hard time breathing a week later. The guy was the biggest #**#$ I ever met, and after I made a point of loudly telling my partner in class one day about the importance of being careful and stopping when someone taps out so that you do not damage them (while accusatorily looking at him), a few days later his fellow instructor told me he talked to him and he was sorry that that happened. After that, he was not allowed physical contact with me again, though his fellow instructor insisted that it was a misunderstanding and that he was not the type who would deliberately do that.
Sorry to go on like that, but my point is, he was pretty unhinged and wanted to teach me a lesson (because I had the audacity to ask what a Judoka should do if someone resisted a throw in a certain way), and I think that he took me for a big, dumb brute and acted pretty recklessly.

Of course that is not the only reason that I think judo is impractical, but when a blackbelt of his rank angrily tries his hardest to throw me twice and fails, I think that is a pretty good case against Judo (and yes, his specialty was arm-bars, not throws, but still...).
Yes, Judo works, but other things work better. I have rolled with and sparred with quite a few Judokas, Hapkidoists, and BJJists, and I have never met one that could throw me or set anything effective on me from stand up. Consequently, I consider that class of martial arts to be the most impractical. I know a Tai Chi master who could woop my arse, and plenty of boxers who could make me hurt (and yet these are considered impractical), and yet no Judoka's, JJists, or HKDists have been able to do anything to me. The only grappling arts that I know of that are worth 2 cents (due to my experience training with people who practice them) are GrecoRoman wrestling, and some forms of folk wrestling.

I don't care if those other arts do well in cage fights or the UFC, until someone can demonstrate their worth to me, I am not buying into it. I will stick with Wing Tsun and Taijiquan. ~;)

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Originally Posted by Moros

Actually I misread. :oops: I was going for the most practical. Though of course it depends on the situation you are in: who you are up against, how many and if and what they are armed with. But eskrima looks in my eyes to be one of the more effective.

If least effective Judo would also come to my mind.

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Ok, I was wondering why you picked it! lol. Yeah, a lot of people don't have a high opinion of eskrima, but I have trained with some guys who knew eskrima who could totally kick arse. I have never practiced it myself, but I have a really high opinion of it.

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Originally Posted by Vuk

Actually Tosa, my instructor is of a very high rank, and pretty active in the local Judo community.

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That I don't question, but one man doesn't represent the whole school/art/sport.

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Originally Posted by Vuk

I don't know Frags, I was not impressed. Also, my instructor mentioned that there were strikes in the kata, but said that they were not even taught until the higher ranks, and he seemed to think that they were not very practical. Most judokas I have met and talked to seem to think that strikes are useless.

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Not practical as martial arts but very effective in a fight. A fight starts with pushing and this is the gransmaster of pushes. They will think you are build from cables.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Not practical as martial arts but very effective in a fight. A fight starts with pushing and this is the gransmaster of pushes. They will think you are build from cables.

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Well, if you don't practice it live though, are you really going to be able to use it effectively? :P
Also, I am not exactly sure I would call it the "grandmaster of pushes", as martial arts like Taiji have some pretty effective pushes. Also Frags, why push 'em when you can punch 'em? :P Seriously, why not crash into them with your fists, and push them backward by beating the snot out of them? :P

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Originally Posted by Vuk

Well, if you don't practice it live though, are you really going to be able to use it effectively? :P
Also, I am not exactly sure I would call it the "grandmaster of pushes", as martial arts like Taiji have some pretty effective pushes. Also Frags, why push 'em when you can punch 'em? :P Seriously, why not crash into them with your fists, and push them backward by beating the snot out of them? :P

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If I am the one striking first the police is going to hate me as I have done fighting sports. It's a nice bluff, and very easy to pull off.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

If I am the one striking first the police is going to hate me as I have done fighting sports. It's a nice bluff, and very easy to pull off.

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Ah...well I am of the mind that one should never be the first to strike. ~;) You see, if everyone had that attitude, then you would have no fights. :P

EDIT: And that has much to do with the American legal system. If you strike first, it is not seen as self-defense. (esp if you are a martial artist). (unless you are a woman) The only way you can really get away with striking first is in cases like kidnappings, rape, etc.

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Originally Posted by Vuk

Ah...well I am of the mind that one should never be the first to strike. ~;) You see, if everyone had that attitude, then you would have no fights. :P

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Well can't always be avoided, live in the city centre where the bars are, things have improved (all bars in my street gone, only restaurants now) but sometimes you can get words with the random druk idiot. Can usually joke my way out but sometimes they are out for trouble. Not going to run either.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Well can't always be avoided, live in the city centre where the bars are, things have improved (all bars in my street gone, only restaurants now) but sometimes you can get words with the random druk idiot. Can usually joke my way out but sometimes they are out for trouble. Not going to run either.

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Swallow your pride? Leave? Not say insulting things to begin with? I have found that all these work well. :P
Seriously Frags, the laws are much different over here. One of the guys from my TKD class was in a bar when a raised a bottle and attacked him with it. He punched the guy in the face and broke his nose.
He ended up getting in trouble because he was a green belt (which is not that high) in TKD, and the court felt that he should have been able to resolve the situation without injuring someone. The guy could have killed him with the bottle, but that seemed not to matter to the court.
If you just go and hit someone here and they get hurt, or a fight ensues and someone gets hurt, you are in deep crap.

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Originally Posted by Vuk

Swallow your pride? Leave? Not say insulting things to begin with? I have found that all these work well. :P
Seriously Frags, the laws are much different over here. One of the guys from my TKD class was in a bar when a raised a bottle and attacked him with it. He punched the guy in the face and broke his nose.
He ended up getting in trouble because he was a green belt (which is not that high) in TKD, and the court felt that he should have been able to resolve the situation without injuring someone. The guy could have killed him with the bottle, but that seemed not to matter to the court.
If you just go and hit someone here and they get hurt, or a fight ensues and someone gets hurt, you are in deep crap.

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In that light: the least effective self defence system would be the most effective one.

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Originally Posted by TosaInu

In that light: the least effective self defence system would be the most effective one.

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The art of fighting without fighting.

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Originally Posted by TosaInu

In that light: the least effective self defence system would be the most effective one.

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No, not at all. I was not referring to his strike, but the fact that he based its effectiveness on striking first. I think that the idea of starting a fight is stupid, not of destroying someone who attacks you. You can use any martial art effectively for either defense or offense. I am simply making an argument that defense is more practical, as offense will get you in trouble (and you really should not do it from a moral standpoint).

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Originally Posted by drone

The art of fighting without fighting.

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Actually, I am of the mind that the goal of a martial art should be the safety of the practitioner, and not to harm ones opponent. I am all for harming one's opponent if the situation calls for it, but only because that is what is needed, and not because that was the goal of your art. To that end, no having enemies and avoiding fights is much more likely to result in your safety than picking fights. Therefore a good martial artist should always seek to avoid fighting.

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Originally Posted by Vuk

Swallow your pride? Leave? Not say insulting things to begin with? I have found that all these work well. :P
Seriously Frags, the laws are much different over here. One of the guys from my TKD class was in a bar when a raised a bottle and attacked him with it. He punched the guy in the face and broke his nose.
He ended up getting in trouble because he was a green belt (which is not that high) in TKD, and the court felt that he should have been able to resolve the situation without injuring someone. The guy could have killed him with the bottle, but that seemed not to matter to the court.
If you just go and hit someone here and they get hurt, or a fight ensues and someone gets hurt, you are in deep crap.

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That's no different here

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Originally Posted by Fragony

That's no different here

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lol, then starting violence probably isn't the best idea. ~;)

Not sure about that Frags, as I imagine our laws being about the same as in the Netherlands. I followed bouncer/steward classes given by the police on how to deal with violence. In which we were taught that you can hit first if the person you were dealing with had already began making a possibly treathening move.