Teutonic hotseat signup

Yay! Visor is here!

Myth I think the info in the sticky is a bit out of date. Although I haven't played in a RTW hotseat...feel free to start one if you want!

ok, now we're all full let's talk about game setup.

I think we should use a light mod which has been used for a few Teutonic games over at TWC and which makes Norway and the Mongols playable.

1. Make a backup of your data file which is found in SEGA/MedievalTotalWar/mods/teutonic
1. Download the "Teutonic_data.rar" file
2. Unpack into the MedievalTotalWar/mods/teutonic file.
3. Select yes when asked to overwrite and/or merge folders
4. Delete the map.rwm file found in SEGA\Medieval II Total War\mods\teutonic\data\world\maps\base
5. Insert/copy & paste " --io.file_first" into the shortcut target field (look below for a guide)
6. Run Game!

#### --io.file_first guide####

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Right click the shortcut and click properties. In the "target" field put "--io.file_first" at the very end with a space in-between the path and the "--io.file_first".

It should look something like this:
https://i37.tinypic.com/2ngqw46.jpg

Change log:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

-Norway added as a playable faction
-Norway can build troops
-The Kalmar union script is no more
-The Mongol voices and music have been corrected along with their religion(Islamic) being existent in their territories
-Unit roster redone for The Mongols and Norway
-Imams can now be recruited for the Mongols
-Fixed few bugs regarding 2d art

In addition to this we all need to mod our descr_strat file to make the Mongols Kings Purse 1000fl instead of negative 1500 (which cripples them).

Would you all please do this and then post back here when you have it working?

Also I suggest we use the following rules:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

- Players shall post a link to the save game in the main game thread and also send a private message to the next player in line to alert them that it is their turn. The save game file should follow the naming convention FN-turn number-faction (eg. FN-1-Novgorod)

- Players have 48 hours to play each turn, with extensions granted at request. The GM will skip a players' turn if the deadline is missed with no communication and a sub allied to the player cannot be found.

- All battles between human-controlled factions are to be auto-resolved

- No spies may be used to open the gates of settlements or forts.

- Siege equipment may only be used to open gates as follows: Ballista can open nothing, Catapults can open wooden walls, Trebuchets can open stone walls.

- No crusades or jihads can be called or joined by a human player.

- No destroying buildings for cash under any circumstances.

- No fighting losing defensive battles on purpose in a besieged city, just to deny the invader the sacking option.

- If an army is beaten in battle by a faction that is after them in the turn order that army may not move on the following turn.

- An army which is beaten in battle may not be attacked on the following turn (because it is immobilized either by the game mechanic or by the rule above) by any faction unless it has retreated to a fort or settlement.

- No exploits, including (but not limited to): no merchant forts, no surround-and-destroy, no tribute deals that deliberately put you into debt greater than 10k, no deliberate diplomatic exchange of territories just to get a free garrison, no tribute deals with or monetary gifts to the Pope, no attacking ships in ports, no leaving blockaded ports without defeating the blockading navy.

If a player is in doubt about whether an in-game action is permissible he shall consult the GM who will make a ruling. Players are requested to compete in a good spirit and use their judgment and sense of fairness at all times.

If a player is suspected of cheating, please make a private report to the GM and avoid making a public accusation or resorting to flaming in the game thread or elsewhere.

Please feel free to provide comment and discuss these rules.

When I have confirmation from everyone on the modding and the rules I'll start the game.

sounds good, although I probably won't be able to get any of the modding done till friday.

Hey, I don't have a specific launcher for TO, I just use the launcher that comes with the game which lets you pick which one you do.
what should i do about the shortcut thing

nevermind, I made my own launcher for TO and added that, it works fine now.

Kalmar union? Having never played the expansion, what does this do exactly?

Also you can add the diplodread exploit to he list :D

I'll set it up tonight when I get home...

May I suggest we name the turn FN-Faction-Turn Number ? It is easier condisering how editing works in M2TW...

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Originally Posted by Myth

Kalmar union? Having never played the expansion, what does this do exactly?

Also you can add the diplodread exploit to he list :D

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Kalmar Union gives extra scripted stacks and units to Norway or Denmark when they unite Scandinavia (I think). It's disabled in this mod because it's unbalanced for hotseat play.

Hmm, the Order gets free troops as well (which kick more butt in autoresolve), without having to wipe out an equally sized human controlled faction to do so.

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Originally Posted by phonicsmonkey

Kalmar Union gives extra scripted stacks and units to Norway or Denmark when they unite Scandinavia (I think). It's disabled in this mod because it's unbalanced for hotseat play.

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Originally Posted by Zim

Hmm, the Order gets free troops as well (which kick more butt in autoresolve), without having to wipe out an equally sized human controlled faction to do so.

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When does that happen? As admin I can remove them if we decide it's unfair.

I think it's somewhat random. They get "crusades" of troops with missions to take certain, usually (always?) pagan settlements. I think they were half stacks or so.

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Originally Posted by phonicsmonkey

When does that happen? As admin I can remove them if we decide it's unfair.

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I'm happy to put a rule in place that when those missions happen the extra troops must be disbanded. The TO is powerful enough I think without getting this extra help.

What does everyone else think?

As the player for the TO and having never played the campaign I'd have to say keep everything as is. The Kalmar union included. But If it's so imbalanced that either faction can sweep across the map then maybe no. I sure wish I had experience with this.

The problem is I didn't create the mod and have zero modding skills, so I can't pick and choose which parts of it to use. If we don't use it we can't have Norway and the Mongols as playable, viable factions. So we're pretty much stuck with not having the Kalmar Union.

Myth, I think you'll find the TO is plenty strong enough without those extra stacks. But let's see what everyone else thinks.

Just checking what Kalmar union means - it's when the Danish player conquers certain settlements and kills the Norwegian king, he basically gets to take over the remaining Norway faction automatically and completely. It's one-way, the Norway player can't do it. So a bit unfair in a hotseat where Norway is playable I think and a good thing not to have.

And the TO gets three "Crusading Nobles" with a half stack each which appear intermittently through the game if Lithuania is still pagan. There's a bit of a longstanding convention here that when things like this happen the scripted extra stacks are removed by the admin. We did it in CotF to get rid of extra Turkish and Byzantine stacks and I really think we should do it again here.

Myth, I understand you don't want to be disadvantaged but there is already a built-in advantage for the TO in that the auto-resolve favours your heavy infantry. In the last Teutonic hotseat we played the TO steamrollered everyone else combined.

So I hope you don't mind if we balance things by taking away those free stacks that no other factions get.

I really do think it will be more balanced that way and I'm not playing in this one so I don't have any vested interest.

Sure I can agree to that If the TO are that imbalanced. Because we left the free stacks in the Britannia game (wales gets hordes of troops I must now slaughter) I thought it wasn't a common thing to do. Do any of the other factions in the Teutonic Campaign get free stacks or other such things?

BTW what of missions that reward you with free units a-la council missions from M2TW?

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Originally Posted by Myth

Because we left the free stacks in the Britannia game (wales gets hordes of troops I must now slaughter) I thought it wasn't a common thing to do.

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Erm, ask the Britannia game admin about that :clown:

Seriously though, the Britannia campaign is just totally unbalanced all round to be honest. England starts with more territories than everybody else combined! So I think it would be likely unplayable if you took away the scripted armies from Wales, Scotland and Norway. Do Ireland get any? I'm not sure...

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Originally Posted by Myth

BTW what of missions that reward you with free units a-la council missions from M2TW?

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Those usually aren't that unbalancing as you only get a few units at most and all factions get them so I don't consider them much of an issue.

I figured that's part of the fun of the Britannia game. In a completely fair fight England would easily steamroll the smaller factions. Norway isn't even viable without the troops they get (which are still far fewer than England or even Scotland can recruit in the same time period), and Wales is even worse off. Also note England gets free troops as well, including armored swordsmen I believe. This is in the form of a returning "crusade". I think only Ireland gets the shaft in regard to free troops, although if they're successful they do get an island of their own.

The Teutonic campaign is more or less balanced, except for factions not meant to be played (Norway and Mongols) and the Order, which has the best castles and basic troops that can take on others' elites in autoresolve. Kalmar Union aside, they're also the sole "free troop" faction in the campaign.

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Originally Posted by phonicsmonkey

Erm, ask the Britannia game admin about that :clown:

Seriously though, the Britannia campaign is just totally unbalanced all round to be honest. England starts with more territories than everybody else combined! So I think it would be likely unplayable if you took away the scripted armies from Wales, Scotland and Norway. Do Ireland get any? I'm not sure...

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Having played the Teutonic campaign in hotseats a fair many times, I suggest leaving the crusading nobles in. The Kalmar union should go. Basically install those fixes. ;)

Oh and Britannia is balanced if you follow the Scots v Norway and Ireland and Wales v England.

In one hotseat the last three factions were Norway, Ireland and Wales, neither betraying each other.

Based on Britannia hotseat experience here I'd put an even balance more as England versus Scotland, Ireland, and Wales, with Norway having some potential to break the balance. England is much more powerful than Wales and Ireland together. Of course, it depends far more on the relative skill (and some extent on luck) of the players. In the previous Teutonic game, everyone but the HRE (and eventually them when they saw how things were going) piled on the Teutons and they wiped the floor withe everyone else. Having the best autoresolve units in the campaign versus the much weaker ones of Lithuania and Novgorod helped, but it was the skill of the player in question that allowed him to take such advantage of that as to beat out everyone else on the map.

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Originally Posted by Visorslash

Having played the Teutonic campaign in hotseats a fair many times, I suggest leaving the crusading nobles in. The Kalmar union should go. Basically install those fixes. ;)

Oh an Bretinnia is balanced is you follow the Scots v Norway and Ireland and Wales v England.

In one hotseat the last three factions were Norway, Ireland and Wales, neither betraying each other.

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Reminds me of Swarbs in THS 2, he won as the Order only because my stupid damn allies betraying me and destroying our only chance at stopping the Order. :(

You are forgetting Samagotian Axeman and Woodsmen. They kick ass.

In our case coordination was iffy and Denmark didn't commit. Poland seemed to be a relatively new player and the Order stomped them for cash, allowing them to focus on me (Novgorod) and Lithuania. The HRE joined in too late and just ended up being one more source for land for the Order... The Order was also played by one of our very best players.

I never had much luck with woodsmen in autoresolve, although I don't doubt they did much more damage than militia.

Makes me kinda wish I picked a faction more in the thick of things. Ah well, for Norway! :charge:

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Originally Posted by Visorslash

Reminds me of Swarbs in THS 2, he won as the Order only because my stupid damn allies betraying me and destroying our only chance at stopping the Order. :(

You are forgetting Samagotian Axeman and Woodsmen. They kick ass.

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The main thing is that the full power of the Teutons can only be unleashed if they control Catholic territories, as those give access to higher tier units... As such, taking lands from Novgorod (Orthodox) or Lithuania (Pagan) can be quite costly as any unit depleted in those conquests have to be sent back for retraining while attacking any other Catholic neighbour may offer retraining capabilities...:idea2:

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Originally Posted by Zim

Poland seemed to be a relatively new player and the Order stomped them for cash, allowing them to focus on me (Novgorod) and Lithuania.

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Poland didn't get stomped for cash but rather for the greater training capacities it offered... The northermost Polish castle offered better unit types than even Marienburg did !!

Lack of coordination among the TO enemies was also of great help in the TO final success... A question of "too little, too late..."

Hmm, I thought it was because Poland starts with some of the biggest cities (in a concentrated area) and you wanted to sack them. :clown:

There was also the great "Lithuanian army accidentally ambushes Novgorodan one" debacle. Armies in hiding will ambush "neutral" armies and if the ambush is successful you can't flee to avoid troop loss. We were about a turn from getting diplomats to eachother as well. :furious3:

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Originally Posted by Tristan de Castelreng

Poland didn't get stomped for cash but rather for the greater training capacities it offered... The northermost Polish castle offered better unit types than even Marienburg did !!

Lack of coordination among the TO enemies was also of great help in the TO final success... A question of "too little, too late..."

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Originally Posted by Zim

There was also the great "Lithuanian army accidentally ambushes Novgorodan one" debacle. Armies in hiding will ambush "neutral" armies and if the ambush is successful you can't flee to avoid troop loss. We were about a turn from getting diplomats to eachother as well. :furious3:

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I had forgotten about that... :laugh4: Still, I used that to my advantage by instillling doubt as to the commitment against the TO of certain factions... Any delay played in my favour...

One thing is that most players played true to their roles, which is why the HRE was reluctant to be at war against the order (that and the Order's promises to help them fight Denmark and keep any Danish territories conquered for themselves...)

All in all, it was a very tense game for the TO because reinforcements had to be brought on all fronts and tose reinforcements were costly...

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Originally Posted by Zim

Hmm, I thought it was because Poland starts with some of the biggest cities (in a concentrated area) and you wanted to sack them. :clown:

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Poland also offered a very defensible base as its southern border is off-limits... One more reason to be stomped early...

Just out of curiosity, was it me you tried to say wasn't commited? I pretty much ruined Novgorod to hire soldiers for you to kill. :clown:

In retrospect I think everyone involved was serious except maybe Denmark. They wanted to send very few troops while focusing on taking ai settlements. But then I didn't think they expected the Order to curbstomp everyone, and they had another nearer potential enemy in the HRE.

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Originally Posted by Tristan de Castelreng

I had forgotten about that... :laugh4: Still, I used that to my advantage by instillling doubt as to the commitment against the TO of certain factions... Any delay played in my favour...

One thing is that most players played true to their roles, which is why the HRE was reluctant to be at war against the order (that and the Order's promises to help them fight Denmark and keep any Danish territories conquered for themselves...)

All in all, it was a very tense game for the TO because reinforcements had to be brought on all fronts and tose reinforcements were costly...

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Originally Posted by Zim

Just out of curiosity, was it me you tried to say wasn't commited? I pretty much ruined Novgorod to hire soldiers for you to kill. :clown:

In retrospect I think everyone involved was serious except maybe Denmark. They wanted to send very few troops while focusing on taking ai settlements. But then I didn't think they expected the Order to curbstomp everyone, and they had another nearer potential enemy in the HRE.

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I didn't say you weren't committed but that I tried to make you and Novgorod think you had betrayed one another (using the "debacle" to my advantage...) thus lessening your commitment for fear of a double-cross.

And all the while, it was Denmark I feared the most and which caused me the biggest difficulties... :laugh4:

I was walking a tight rope diplomatically in that game... Until Hell broke loose and I had to stomp every other faction...

What did Denmark end up doing? From our side it seemed they sent a few troops by sea and then kept mostly to Scandinavia trying to unite it.

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Originally Posted by Tristan de Castelreng

I didn't say you weren't committed but that I tried to make you and Novgorod think you had betrayed one another (using the "debacle" to my advantage...) thus lessening your commitment for fear of a double-cross.

And all the while, it was Denmark I feared the most and which caused me the biggest difficulties... :laugh4:

I was walking a tight rope diplomatically in that game... Until Hell broke loose and I had to stomp every other faction...

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Tristan de Castelreng is that good? Now I have to keep a closer eye on him in the "When world collide" game :D

When battles are taken out of the equation player skill can be determined by his strategical choices, the way he handles logistics and the way he prioritizes his objectives. Diplomacy and roleplaying I think are just as important, although they are tools to accomplish said objectives.

Then again I am new to hotseat games :)